@amigakit

Quote:

providing the missing files to make the system boot

Also known as “the operating system�.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But wont Cloanto get mad, when you produce products that compete with emulation solutions.

Cloanto only objected to Hyperion's alleged breach of licensing agreements relating to IP Cloanto own.

AROS doesn't infringe Cloanto's IP and they've actual;y donated to various AROS bounties

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

But wont Cloanto get mad, when you produce products that compete with emulation solutions.

I don't see any legal problem with different Amiga emulators, AROS, MorphOS or other AmigaOS clean room re-implementations. There is an AmigaOS division problem which reduces the advantage of a standard 68k AmigaOS though. Michele Battilana was likely the person pushing for potential AmigaOS open sourcing within 5 years in the agreement that Hyperion backed out of.

1. Suspend legal action
2. OS4 Hyperion
3. Pre-OS 3.1.4 Amiga Inc.
4. OS 3.1.4 5-year exclusive Hyperion
5. After 5 years OS 3.1 open source potential
6. Hyperion could continue to develop - Classic Plus pack?
7. Possible cash payment to shorten the 5 year exclusive period

https://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2023-05-00030-EN.html

This looks to me like an extremely good deal for Hyperion considering Hyperion was contracted to develop AmigaOS 4 and did not deliver it, often called stealing. As I recall, later there were rumors (Amiga Documents Tweet?) that the 68k AmigaOS 3.x would have been a free update. This may have been the deal breaker as Hyperion was dependent on the sales of their 68k AmigaOS update instead of their development of PPC AmigaOS 4 which they had practically suspended. I believe Hyperion wants to keep the 68k AmigaOS proprietary while Cloanto/Amiga Corporation want a more open 68k AmigaOS and wish to proliferate and improve the 68k AmigaOS by making it available at a low cost.

The https://www.amigastore.com, "Amiga Store from Amiga Kit" and A600GS screens showing "Amiga Kit" may be potential trademark violations. Amiga Kit appears to be cautious about the AmigaOS clone but seems to ignore the danger of using the "Amiga" branding for merchandise and computer sales where CBM used the Amiga branding. They may be going for the IP squatting defense that they have been using the IP for long enough that they have a right to it. This is why it is important to defend against IP squatters in a timely fashion. Sadly, Michele has been reasonable and more than willing to negotiate while Hyperion, A-Eon and Amiga Kit have played dirty trying to push boundaries in their favor when Amiga Corporation owns most of the Amiga IP.

amigang Quote:

Wii? I had to double-check you on that one, but your right https://www.amigaforever.com/wii/ I wonder what project that would have been, I doubt Nintendo would have allowed an Amiga emulator on their platform. Plus the Android and Chrome support is basically just the Roms, it not really an emulator which is what I'm on about.

Amiga Forever Wii support may have been a licensing deal with Nintendo, perhaps that fell through, or for Homebrew hacked Wiis. It could be that there was an attempt to port AmigaOS 4 to the Wii like was done with the PS3 (I believe AmigaOS 4 requires 68k ROMs) although this likely would have required hacking into Homebrew unlike the PS3 which initially allowed limited access to the hardware until Sony changed their mind. Homebrew consoles/minis are popular as the more powerful ones can be turned into universal emulators and even general purpose computers increasing their value. Too bad such devices need to be hacked to unlock their full value but some businesses like their proprietary control, as we see in Amiga Neverland too.

amigang Quote:

Emulation is not always EOL, there always a new platform to support and new users who might try out old Amiga games. Sega kinda proved this with Sonic1 game that been re-released, remastered so many times on so many different platforms or there Mega Drive Collection, that came out on Ps2, wii, xbox, Ps3, Ps4, Ps5, Android, etc, and newer tech allows these companies to ever expand the option and the way you can play the classics. HD/4k up-scale is thing now for most of these old games, but who knows whats next, ai enhancements, VR / Augmented reality version etc

Sega is dead as a hardware business. Sure, they have a huge software collection, much of it 68k based, but there is barely any new software or enhanced software due to lack of hardware. Software development is dead as it is with the Amiga meaning demand will die over time. Mass produced new hardware is needed for development. There has been mass produced Sega Mini hardware with game collections like THEA500 Mini which have sold millions of units but they have mostly been cheap replacements at best and often using inferior quality hardware and emulation. It is possible to enhance the hardware, beyond HDMI and up-scaling which are practically required today. Most Sega and early consoles had minimal OSs so there is limited ability to upgrade the hardware while maintaining good compatibility but the 68k Amiga/CD32, X68000, 68k Atari and 68k Mac can be upgraded. All of these platforms have used the 68060 which is a huge upgrade from the 68000 they started with and more is possible just from a 68k CPU and memory upgrade. Emulation of the Amiga is showing what is possible beyond 68060 performance but it is just scratching the surface compared to an ASIC SoC with CPU and chipset upgrades. Add a 68000 core in the SoC and small $10 FPGA for chipsets and the hardware is no longer a one and done money grab but a system and market to build on as well as the ultimate high quality non-emulation retro gaming hardware. No homebrew required to unlock the full value.

amigang Quote:

Its also useful money maker to hopefully bring new resource and to put money in supporting newer project. It also offers awareness factor, many people dont even know about Amiga anymore! I work with some younger people who know what a Sega Mega Drive was and what Commodore even was, but they didn't know anything about Amiga! it makes me sad, but not that surprising, because until really the A500 mini, nothing really gone main stream.

Awareness is good but it is studying computer history in the case of the Amiga. History knowledge fades as it gets older because there is newer history to remember. Without new relevant hardware, the Amiga will continue to be unknown by younger generations until only history buffs know about it. Practically everyone knows about Apple, Steve Jobs, Microsoft and Bill Gates but hardly anyone knows about Amiga Corporation and Jay Miner which will only get worse. I repeat. Promoting what the Amiga was is a loosing battle. History is forgotten in time.

amigang Quote:

But the Amiga not dead and is only growing (only very small) thanks in part we have to say thanks to A500 Mini, appearing in places where people might of completely forgotten the Amiga platform, they picked one up and looked online about Amiga and found a crazy amiga community still going strong, I know this because i met a person who told me this story at North West Amiga meeting we had and he was blown away by the fact that the Amiga was still going and there was community still active and so many Amiga shows / group meeting being held. So you just never know what impact, no matter how small these above suggestion will make.

THEA500 Mini is a well done nostalgic toy and it no doubt has raised Amiga awareness but it is a facade of what the Amiga was rather than what it is, which is dead as a platform. There is no real attempt at an Amiga resurrection. It is a one and done money grab as respectfully done as it is. It could have been more but division and Amiga IP squatters are making the Amiga uninvestable.

@agami

Quote:

I had to vote for 'Other' because I think the missed opportunities RIGHT NOW! are more related to Business than hardware, software, products (which can be hardware and/or software), or any of the other options in your poll. What we've witnessed over the past 5 years is that there is no shortage of talent and capabilities to develop and bring to market new things for the existing Amiga market: FPGA-based accelerators and standalone systems which outperform any original Amiga and m68k accelerator, ARM-based solutions such as PiStorm + emu68, A500 Mini, A600GS, updates to actually usable software for MorphOS, ApolloOS, AROS68k, AxRuntime, System 46, etc.

Agreed. The primary problem is a lack of business leadership.

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What this beloved system needs RIGHT NOW! is the thing it didn't get in 2009 when A-EON volunteered itself as tribute in our decades long version of the Hunger Games. We thought we were finally getting some business leadership to step things up and bring the much needed signal to our land of noise.

To be fair, A-EON didn't (and still doesn't) own AmigaOS itself, and therefore wasn't (and still isn't) in a position to lead. It's almost impossible to be the business leader of an ecosystem when you don't own the core of that ecosystem.

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People


take a look at SerenityOS or RedoxOS. Small hobbyist OSes are thriving today - there is even a designed-from-scratch browser engine being done for SerenityOS.

Amiga is not attractive to these hobbyist developers. It doesn't support modern features and only really AROS is available on a up to date HW platform.

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@WolfToTheMoon

Well, they designed from a must have point of view, not from nostalgic point of view, its lot harder when you try to stay true to Amiga, and it’s legacy. Everything takes forever also because, some stuff had to be reinvented a few times.

Due to closed source, complicated contracts, and NDA’s and other stuff, and copyrights.
Some stuff can be less hostile to developers, and companies should have cooperated more.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Sep-2024 at 06:00 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

THEA500 Mini is a well done nostalgic toy and it no doubt has raised Amiga awareness but it is a facade of what the Amiga was rather than what it is, which is dead as a platform. There is no real attempt at an Amiga resurrection. It is a one and done money grab as respectfully done as it is. It could have been more but division and Amiga IP squatters are making the Amiga uninvestable.

THEA500 Mini was just what the market needed. What was ridiculous was AmigaKit and others not attempting to become resellers but instead seeking to forge their own ecosystem instead! I would have suggested a "If you can't beat them, join them!" approach personally! Too late now. Roll on the Amiga Maxi as competition for the A600GS. For everyone else who likes real hardware there's Vampire and PiStorm.

Last edited by BigD on 09-Sep-2024 at 09:37 PM.

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Hans Quote:

Agreed. The primary problem is a lack of business leadership.

There hasn't been any Amiga leadership since Amiga Corporation which is back and owning most of the Amiga IP but other Amiga businesses deliberately try to undermine Amiga Corporation and squat on the Amiga IP.

Hans Quote:

To be fair, A-EON didn't (and still doesn't) own AmigaOS itself, and therefore wasn't (and still isn't) in a position to lead. It's almost impossible to be the business leader of an ecosystem when you don't own the core of that ecosystem.

Trevor is in a position to lead by taking down the monster he created, Ben. Trevor was involved with the Amiga before the current incarnation of A-Eon.

2009 A-Eon Technology of Belgium
2012 A-Eon Technology Ltd. of Wales

The year 2009 just happened to be the year of the 2009 settlement agreement between a financially distressed Amiga Inc. after Dr. Pentti Kouri's death and Hyperion written by Ben and with no advantage I can see for Amiga Inc. other than legal relief. Ben threatened and cooerced Bill of Amiga Inc. in later e-mails so there is reason to believe he did the same with the 2009 agreement which would make it illegal. Trevor mysteriously ended up owning Hyperion stock which was later diluted away by Ben for his legal services provided to Hyperion. Trevor does not appear to have signed the 2009 agreement perhaps as a secret financier for the lawsuits.

Statements and documents appear to indicate that the 2009 A-Eon had a problem with Ben embezzling funds and forging bank documents. This resulted in the end to the first incarnation of A-Eon but Trevor/A-Eon Wales received a worldwide sub-license of Amiga IP from Hyperion and software like Warp3D. It is logical to assume there was quid pro quo bargaining and more financial dealings between Hyperion and Trevor/A-Eon.

It looks like Ben failed to deliver AmigaOS 4 source code as contracted (stealing), illegally coerced the financially distressed Amiga Inc. into signing the 2009 settlement agreement between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion, embezzled A-Eon of Brussels funds, forged A-Eon of Brussels bank documents, diluted Trevor's Hyperion stock away and illegally created a Hyperion shell business to transfer assets to to avoid liquidation in a bankruptcy. This may only include the major criminal activity of Ben. Trevor himself has been a victim of Ben multiple times and certainly has the dirt on him to take him down. The opposite seems to be true though. Trevor and his allies seems more interested in helping Ben and Hyperion stay afloat while undermining Amiga Corporation. Why make a deal with the devil when Michele Battilana seem reasonable and honest? The only logical explanation I have is that Trevor is dirty too. It sure looks like Trevor funded some questionably legal activity and extorted Ben rather than turning him in. All is well. The ends justify the means. Trevor will continue at all costs as his fantasy world crumbles around him. He could be a leader, bite the bullet and put Ben in jail where he belongs but the problem is that he isn't a leader. Ben is a big gambler and when he finally loses he may take Trevor down with him.

WolfToTheMoon Quote:

take a look at SerenityOS or RedoxOS. Small hobbyist OSes are thriving today - there is even a designed-from-scratch browser engine being done for SerenityOS. Amiga is not attractive to these hobbyist developers. It doesn't support modern features and only really AROS is available on a up to date HW platform.

These OSs have relatively cheap hardware to use and they are open source. They are POSIX compatible and Unix like so they compete with all the Linux/BSD distros limiting their proliferation. Haiku is another open source OS but not based on Unix. It likely has more users than the AmigaOS partially due to its uniqueness. The AmigaOS could be more popular with affordable hardware, as THEA500 Mini has shown despite not having a full AmigaOS and modern features. PPC AmigaOS 4 is more dead end than 68k AmigaOS 3 as it was not good enough to provide modern features while it lacks 68k AmigaOS software compatibility. It was not NG enough as compatibility can't be maintained while providing modern features. The 68k AmigaOS would still be useful for small footprint low cost hardware while a replacement for AmigaOS 4 is needed for a modern competitive AmigaOS.

BigD Quote:

THEA500 Mini was just what the market needed. What was ridiculous was AmigaKit and others not attempting to become resellers but instead seeking to forge their own ecosystem instead! I would have suggested a "If you can't beat them, join them!" approach personally! Too late now. Roll on the Amiga Maxi as competition for the A600GS. For everyone else who likes real hardware there's Vampire and PiStorm.

THEA500 Mini is an important Amiga related product, for a toy. The Amiga Maxi should be interesting. I feel like something better than a more functional and fuller sized Amiga 500 is necessary to sustain the momentum provided by THEA500 Mini.

@matthey

Quote:

These OSs have relatively cheap hardware to use and they are open source. They are POSIX compatible and Unix like so they compete with all the Linux/BSD distros limiting their proliferation. Haiku is another open source OS but not based on Unix. It likely has more users than the AmigaOS partially due to its uniqueness. The AmigaOS could be more popular with affordable hardware, as THEA500 Mini has shown despite not having a full AmigaOS and modern features. PPC AmigaOS 4 is more dead end than 68k AmigaOS 3 as it was not good enough to provide modern features while it lacks 68k AmigaOS software compatibility. It was not NG enough as compatibility can't be maintained while providing modern features. The 68k AmigaOS would still be useful for small footprint low cost hardware while a replacement for AmigaOS 4 is needed for a modern competitive AmigaOS.

THEA500 Mini's target market is the click-and-game audience, which is the majority of A500's target market, i.e., insert a game disk and play a game.

A500's target audience majority is closer to an Xbox/PlayStation games console e.g. success of A500's Batman pack.

PowerPC Amiga is modeled after the Mac PowerPC adventure.

https://www.pczone.co.uk/back-to-the-amiga-500-batman-pack-30-years-later/
Quote:

Target Acquired: Batman Pack! November 1989. I have no idea how many magazine adverts I’d read but I knew all the prices out there, and the packs available and emerging. It had to be the Amiga 500 Batman pack. Batman looked amazing, and it came with the must have “F/A 18 Interceptor�. My first flight sim. New Zealand Story I have to confess, had no draw for me at all. The RRP was £399. I think I’d saved about £300-£320. Not enough. But there was hope. (skip) Why did I sell it? It was my love of flight sims that eventually made me decide to sell the Amiga and my fine collection of games and joysticks, so that I could “upgrade� to a used 386 DX 33 PC. So the Amiga was sold and it must have held it’s value as the lady who purchased it from me for her son, paid me over several months, in installments before finally taking delivery of it. I’d heard of the Amiga 2000 but it was just too out of reach. The PC seemed the better choice. And perhaps it was. I have to thank my step into PCs for the IT career that followed, but equally I have to thank all the machines that went before, including the +3 and especially the Amiga.

Quote:

@matthey Sega is dead as a hardware business. Sure, they have a huge software collection, much of it 68k based, but there is barely any new software or enhanced software due to lack of hardware. Software development is dead as it is with the Amiga meaning demand will die over time. Mass produced new hardware is needed for development. There has been mass produced Sega Mini hardware with game collections like THEA500 Mini which have sold millions of units but they have mostly been cheap replacements at best and often using inferior quality hardware and emulation. It is possible to enhance the hardware, beyond HDMI and up-scaling which are practically required today. Most Sega and early consoles had minimal OSs so there is limited ability to upgrade the hardware while maintaining good compatibility but the 68k Amiga/CD32, X68000, 68k Atari and 68k Mac can be upgraded. All of these platforms have used the 68060 which is a huge upgrade from the 68000 they started with and more is possible just from a 68k CPU and memory upgrade. Emulation of the Amiga is showing what is possible beyond 68060 performance but it is just scratching the surface compared to an ASIC SoC with CPU and chipset upgrades. Add a 68000 core in the SoC and small $10 FPGA for chipsets and the hardware is no longer a one and done money grab but a system and market to build on as well as the ultimate high quality non-emulation retro gaming hardware. No homebrew required to unlock the full value.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards

Sega's current hardware business involves running Unreal Engine 4-based games i.e. ALLS platform.

https://segaretro.org/ALLS examples. Some Sega ALLS include higher-grade NVIDIA GPUs.

From https://segaretro.org/Virtua_Fighter_2/Development
Sega's 3D hardware includes licensed IPs from US companies like Lockheed Martin's texture mapper technology. Lockheed Martin's graphics division was purchased by Intel e.g. Real3D 3D accelerator cards, Intel continued IGP R&D, and later ARC GpGPU.

Sega using NVIDIA GPUs as their 3rd party 3D hardware selection is not new.

Quote:

Yu Suzuki turned to Lockheed Martin, formerly General Electric Aerial & Space, which charged $2 million to use the texture mapping chip of their flight simulation equipment that cost $32 million overall. Despite some reluctance on Sega's part, Suzuki managed to convince them to buy the chip for $2 million, and he then worked with his AM2 team to convert it for video game use. Using the Lockheed Martin technology, his AM2 team eventually managed to create a graphics chip that could be mass-produced for $50 each. As a result, he was able to use texture mapping for the Virtua Fighter 2 characters

For https://segaretro.org/Sega_Model_2 this CPU is Intel i960 @ 25 MHz with 25 MIPS.

This experience led to the Sega Saturn e.g. Hitachi SuperH-2 @ 28 Mhz has similar compute power as Intel i960 @ 25 MHz These are lower-cost poor man's 68040/80486 class CPUs.

68060 is late for many former 68K platform vendors and 68EC040 @ 25 Mhz for $100 wasn't in game console CPU whole prices.

Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 02:27 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 02:24 AM.

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: seeking to forge their own ecosystem instead!

Well, we'll how that goes. The THEA500 Mini outnumbers A600CS by a very large margin, and has a huge benefit of development taking place in the open in an actual community, and not behind closed doors of some dubious gatekeeper. Meanwhile, AmigaKit is struggling to support the very few A600GS customers they have already, and then there's the PSTI act that could really get them in deep shit...

Last edited by kolla on 10-Sep-2024 at 03:04 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

There hasn't been any Amiga leadership since Amiga Corporation which is back and owning most of the Amiga IP but other Amiga businesses deliberately try to undermine Amiga Corporation and squat on the Amiga IP.

The lack of Amiga business leadership goes way back to when Commodore owned it.

Quote:

Trevor is in a position to lead by taking down the monster he created, Ben...

I've never understood your desire to paint Trevor as some kind of villain, and Michael Battilana as some kind of knight in shining armour. Your version of events is a mix of facts, mixed with plentiful wild guesses and fiction.

What possible motivation would Trevor have to help Ben keep an iron grip on the OS4 IP? Trevor is interested in seeing AmigaOS 4 succeed, NOT Ben. The idea is ludicrous even if you ignore Trevor's work as an "Angel Investor" in early stage startups. Investing in and advising early stage startups is what he does, so he's seen a lot of business successes and failures over the years. He's got a much better idea than most on what works and what doesn't.

Likewise, do you really think that Ben would just let anyone walk in and rip OS 4 out of his hands? After how hard he has fought to hold on to it? He could have walked away and focused on his legal practice years ago, and he'd probably be better off financially (and health/stress-wise too). He chose to stick around and fight it out, and he's still here. Don't think for a moment that anyone could just "put him in jail" and take over.

Incidentally, a "business leader" who would "take down" someone else and take over is NOT the kind of person I'd want as leader.

Hans


P.S., While we're speculating, has Michael Battilana given any indication that he has interest in AmigaOS beyond selling emulators and licensing ROMs?

Last edited by Hans on 10-Sep-2024 at 03:23 AM.

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Hans Quote:

I've never understood your desire to paint Trevor as some kind of villain, and Michael Battilana as some kind of knight in shining armour. Your version of events is a mix of facts, mixed with plentiful wild guesses and fiction.

I don't think Trevor is some super villain like Ben. His utilitarian ethics have very much left him in a grey zone where he has likely violated the law but likely would not receive jail time, especially if he cooperated with authorities. Ben looks like a complete conman that tries to cheat anyone and everyone he comes into contact with. His crimes are far from minor and numerous. Sam Bankman-Fried stole more money and received a 25 years prison sentence but the severity of crimes are on par in my opinion. One thing that is clear is that Trevor plans on continuing the status quo for decades more. I expect he is trying to dig up some 20+ year old PPC CPUs or even more expensive POWER CPUs for more lost Amiga decades. Compared to more Trevor lost Amiga decades, I believe Michele as majority Amiga IP owner deserves more respect. I find no fault with him.

As far as events, it is difficult to 100% verify every detail but an overall picture emerges. The Amiga Documents site has hundreds of documents many of which have been used as evidence in Amiga court cases.

https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/all

Certainly the sources of some of the documents are unknown but it would have been a monumental effort to fraudulently create so many documents. AmigaOS 4 users tend to overlook Ben and Trevor issues as Robinhood syndrome justification. It was bad enough to justify stealing AmigaOS 4 and Amiga IP from Amiga Inc. who were shady themselves but it is worse to demonize and undermine Michele who appears to be without fault.

Hans Quote:

What possible motivation would Trevor have to help Ben keep an iron grip on the OS4 IP? Trevor is interested in seeing AmigaOS 4 succeed, NOT Ben. The idea is ludicrous even if you ignore Trevor's work as an "Angel Investor" in early stage startups. Investing in and advising early stage startups is what he does, so he's seen a lot of business successes and failures over the years. He's got a much better idea than most on what works and what doesn't.

Ben is supplying the perpetual sub-licensened Amiga IP Trevor needs for AmigaOS 4 and Amiga1. Trevor wants the arrangement to continue forever. Not everything is kosher though. Ben practically stopped AmigaOS 4 development and Ben being untrustworthy means Trevor was reluctant to bail out Hyperion again. Trevor probably wants to obtain AmigaOS 4 for A-Eon but it is a legal nightmare and Ben has likely been holding out for a major payoff.

Hans Quote:

Likewise, do you really think that Ben would just let anyone walk in and rip OS 4 out of his hands? After how hard he has fought to hold on to it? He could have walked away and focused on his legal practice years ago, and he'd probably be better off financially (and health/stress-wise too). He chose to stick around and fight it out, and he's still here. Don't think for a moment that anyone could just "put him in jail" and take over.

Ben's cover as a legitimate lawyer has allowed him to go far but odds are that gambling everything too many times is likely to lose everything. I'm really surprised that authorities can't connect the dots and crimes to finally put him in jail. Well, these are small businesses losing money so I guess they go under the radar.

Hans Quote:

Incidentally, a "business leader" who would "take down" someone else and take over is NOT the kind of person I'd want as leader.

I would never suggest taking down a legitimate person or business but I do suggest taking down major criminals. Amiga owners loved the idea of Hyperion licensing and porting games to the Amiga but shenanigans have made them far from legitimate.

Hans Quote:

P.S., While we're speculating, has Michael Battilana given any indication that he has interest in AmigaOS beyond selling emulators and licensing ROMs?

Michele negotiated the release of the 68k AmigaOS 3.x and PPC AmigaOS 4 from Hyperion with restrictions. I expect Michele is responsible for the open source potential clause. Cloanto has also made 68k AmigaOS contributions in the past. I believe it is safe to say that he would like to see AmigaOS development continue. Whether for emulators and licensing ROMs only is somewhat blurred anymore. Trevor has the AmigaOS 4 and Amiga1 platform destined for emulation too.

@matthey

Quote:

... One thing that is clear is that Trevor plans on continuing the status quo for decades more. I expect he is trying to dig up some 20+ year old PPC CPUs or even more expensive POWER CPUs for more lost Amiga decades. Compared to more Trevor lost Amiga decades, ... Certainly the sources of some of the documents are unknown but it would have been a monumental effort to fraudulently create so many documents. AmigaOS 4 users tend to overlook Ben and Trevor issues as Robinhood syndrome justification. It was bad enough to justify stealing AmigaOS 4 and Amiga IP from Amiga Inc. who were shady themselves but it is worse to demonize and undermine Michele who appears to be without fault. ...

Even more wild speculation. None of what happened is anywhere near as black and white as you make it appear.


Quote:

Michele negotiated the release of the 68k AmigaOS 3.x and PPC AmigaOS 4 from Hyperion with restrictions. I expect Michele is responsible for the open source potential clause. Cloanto has also made 68k AmigaOS contributions in the past. I believe it is safe to say that he would like to see AmigaOS development continue. Whether for emulators and licensing ROMs only is somewhat blurred anymore. Trevor has the AmigaOS 4 and Amiga1 platform destined for emulation too.

Nothing you've written above constitustes any indication that he has any interest, plans, or vision to continue AmigaOS development.

A-EON funding the VirtioGPU driver doesn't mean that Trevor has chosen emulation as AmigaOS 4's future (I suggested the project, NOT him). And Trevor doesn't get to decide AmigaOS 4's future because, as we've already discussed, he doesn't own it.

Hans

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Hans Quote:

Even more wild speculation. None of what happened is anywhere near as black and white as you make it appear.

There may be some speculation but it isn't so wild. I believe there is enough evidence available to make several cases but good lawyers are needed. Good Lawyers and court costs are expensive while micro businesses fight for a small divided Amiga pie. Time and resources are wasted on lawsuits instead of development. Perhaps none of the micro businesses has enough financial firepower to end perpetual Amiga purgatory and the Amiga will continue to fall further and further behind until it disappears forever.

Ben looks black enough to me. Trevor is certainly in a grey area. How much he knew of the tactics to be used in the conspiracy to defraud Amiga Inc. and likely illegally coerce the financially distressed Amiga Inc. into signing the 2009 settlement gift to Hyperion is debatable. There is also a fine line between extortion/blackmail and being assertive with leverage as likely happened after Ben embezzlement and forgery of bank statements for A-Eon of Belgium. Trevor may have thought he was doing the right thing believing Ben/Hyperion was doing a good job of developing AmigaOS 4 and wanting it to continue. Rather than a silent financier/investor of Hyperion, Trevor should have approached Amiga Inc. and tried to legitimately buy the AmigaOS and Amiga IP, like Michele did later with the intention of recreating Amiga Corporation.

Hans Quote:

Nothing you've written above constitutes any indication that he has any interest, plans, or vision to continue AmigaOS development.

Michele has given a loose vision of what he would like to see. He was asked at Amiga 37 Germany what his vision is for the Amiga.

Mike at Amiga 37 Germany (October 2022)
https://youtu.be/uY0n4ucx0wo?t=839 Quote:

My vision, a vision also depends on what you can do. You have to adapt sometimes. I would love to bring reconciliation and healing, for example on the 3.x front. To have a good solution that replaces some things that are in a grey area now. I cannot say more. I cannot say more about open source because I'm going to touch difficult topics. But I think an open source branch would be appropriate. That has been my public position for years now. There needs to be a choice other than classic which for me is eternal. I believe that retro, or retro for Amiga lovers is not a sliding door that is only of interest to those who witnessed it in their youth. For me it is classic forever, like old timer cars, you know. So I think you are a prime example, you're bringing your son, I suppose, which is beautiful. I would love to bring my children next time maybe. I think we can educate and inspire new generations with it. These are systems which are forever the same. They're easy to study and learn, and maybe the last systems you can have in your head. So for education also they are of interest. For the modern, there will be ideally a choice of a good CPU for example. But there needs to be a discourse with the developers. I cannot start talking without resolving the situations first, and being in agreement with the other people. But yes, there's visions for enough decades in theory. Thank you.

BGE Ep 31 - Amiga oggi e domani
https://youtu.be/aopjLmDuPe0?t=624 (Italian but auto translation can be turned on)

Here Michele mentions that he would like to see low latency Amiga hardware. Education, ease of use and uniqueness of the Amiga(OS) is also emphasized. This is where the AmigaOS and Unix like OSs often differ.

Mike at Amiga 34 Germany (October 2019)
https://youtu.be/IUD7y5mpTao?t=799 Quote:

I want to see Amiga move forward.

The video above is older, soon after Amiga Inc. sold their Amiga IP, but it has some early ideas of Michele. He talks about the development of the 68k AmigaOS for free by the developers which should in turn be released for free. He also talks about an open source branch of the AmigaOS.

Michele is saying good things but is being ignored and undermined even though Amiga Corporation owns most of the Amiga IP now. The fact that he chose "Amiga Corporation" for the new business name and created it in the U.S. indicates to me that he has greater intentions than just turning Amiga Corporation into an IP bank. He is conservative and patient waiting for everything to be sorted before moving forward though. More certainty is required for investment.

Hans Quote:

A-EON funding the VirtioGPU driver doesn't mean that Trevor has chosen emulation as AmigaOS 4's future (I suggested the project, NOT him). And Trevor doesn't get to decide AmigaOS 4's future because, as we've already discussed, he doesn't own it.

Trevor wants Amiga1 hardware but has chosen emulation for Amiga1 and AmigaOS 4 due to using ancient and handicapped PPC CPUs with tiny hardware production for outrageous prices.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Trevor wants Amiga1 hardware but has chosen emulation for Amiga1 and AmigaOS 4 due to using ancient and handicapped PPC CPUs with tiny hardware production for outrageous prices.

Even Trevor has acknowledged that there is a desire to move to ARM now, it was at one of the shows. I don't remember which one, however he didn't seem too happy about it. More of a "here we go again" direction change sigh.

That being said, "using ancient and handicapped PPC CPUs with tiny hardware production for outrageous prices." You couldn't be more correct.
You aren't growing any further while this fact remains.
No one other than wealthy enthusits are going to consider this and that resource grows smaller, daily.

Last edited by SHADES on 10-Sep-2024 at 11:45 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 10-Sep-2024 at 11:44 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 10-Sep-2024 at 11:44 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@amigang

This question is hard to answer in the modern age as the modern Amiga scene is fairly broad. Regardless of acknowledging it the modern scene goes beyond 68K. And has widened since the late 90's when Amiga was just 68K and simple.

But I'll pick one example: Tabor. This was a good idea. Bring out an OS4 machine as cheap as possible but powerful enough to compete with existing OS4 hardware. Unfortunately, it failed. It's released now but it failed to meet its purpose. In some ways it's like an A600, where it cost more than an A500, where the idea was a cheaper A300 being produced. The questionable CPU choice caused incompatibility and needed an emulator (ridiculous in itself) which added both time and extra costs. Down the track parts became rare and expensive before a stable production run. By the time it did come out it had become too expensive to serve its purpose. On top of this there were more delays with boards being sent out. And those early customers receiving boards late.

I use this as an example because it was a good idea at the time to broaden the OS4 market and be more practical in pricing. I spoke to Amiga people who were really interested in it and some only knew 68K. So it was good opportunity. But in the end it was ruined. It was almost a decade late. They stuffed it up.

@amigang

- Amiga games on steam wrapped in UAE and cheap OS emulation (basically just kS needed)
would be viable source of revenue
I agree. Like Chaos Engine is some crappy PC version on Steam :D

- Developing Amiga games for Windows, Mac and selling them all on Steam (like that Chaos Engine remake and few more) made point

- More unified website presenting what Amiga is - yes. Amiga.com is wasted for ages

- More productivity software for OS3 and OS4-MorphOS even at 50 euro plus tag, but working and making it into new millenia :D

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja

@Hypex

Tabors only current appeal is being only other OS4 hw avail new, other then x5000. Expensive, but not so expensive as x5000.

If I would pick OS4 system again, surely, even x5000 is better performance per buck ratio, so its generally quite dead end. Slightly better then SAM460, but quirky and quite more expensive.

Well, OS 4 failed to grow up to OS 4.2 promise (even with Enhancer and paid drivers) that coupled with Libre Office port (still in beta?) and abandoned Timberwolf could be a usable productivity platform, even at high price - something once upon a time I believed with x1000s Trevors promotion as "OS4 dream machine". Now all OS4 seems to be is potential to backport to OS3 ...

Could ARM transition be savior? Well maybe yes if target would be e.g. latest Pi and OS becoming just paid OS choice, and if OS would rapidly develop on ARM. Adopting some standard hardware seems to work (as seen with PiStorm and even A600GS)

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja

@vox

Quote:

Tabors only current appeal is being only other OS4 hw avail new, other then x5000.

Yeah, the best Workbench Cleanup>Window/Snapshot>All simulator out there for 1.5 times as much as a PS5 Pro! Hilarious! About as far from a wasted opportunity as you can get! The AmigaOne project was not an opportunity. Alan Redhouse got out when he did for a reason!

It's OK though because the main Amiga mantra of the AmigaOne machines lives on in the A600GS:

"When it's done!" 😅

Last edited by BigD on 11-Sep-2024 at 08:05 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 11-Sep-2024 at 08:01 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Only AmiSphere will live on! (even I did find it bloated and buggy Hooluwood made webstore!)
:D And Enhancer too!

Good side is A600GS proves there is Enhancer for OS3 m68k, I wonder why they dont sell it to OS 3.2 masses too?

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja