The problem with the 68k is old silicon.

68000 3500nm
68060 500nm
PPC (X5000 & A1222+ SoC) 45nm
RPi1-3 40nm
RPi4 28nm
RPi5 16nm
new 3nm

PPC silicon is showing its age and it is in MUCH better shape than 68k silicon. Gains below about 28nm are diminishing.

OlafS25 Quote:

for what software you need a multicore system with several Gigahertz? On 68k all software available works, both on emulation and on accellerated hardware The newest demanding games will never be ported anyway

Ported software is the easiest path to increased software especially games. There are plenty of games that can be relatively easily ported up to about 1998 when games supporting multi-threading started to appear. Multi-threading on the same core did not gain much performance so multi-threading support in games was not common until multi-core CPUs appeared in about 2005. Improving 68k CPU performance opens the opportunity to port many more games to the 68k Amiga even without SMP. Unified shader 3D support was introduced in 2005 too so before is pretty much retro and after the transition is modern. PPC AmigaOS 4 hardware has CPU performance for later games and unified shader support with Warp3D Nova but not many new games supporting so maybe SMP is needed to complete required specs or maybe they just don't have a large enough user base to be viable. The majority of the games that have been ported but are beyond the performance of most 68k hardware are older like 1995 Wipeout, 1997 Hexen II, 1999 Quake 3 (OpenArena), 1999 Gorky 17, 2001 Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, etc. These types of games could likely be easily ported to the 68k Amiga is we had newer silicon that gave say 20 to 40 times better CPU performance. This should be possible for $1 -$3 ASIC SoC using older say 28nm to 40nm silicon. A GPU better than a RPi GPU and large caches may move the SoC cost up a few dollars as GPUs can easily use more area/transistors than the rest of the SoC and caches can use more area/transistors than core logic.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: The problem with the 68k is old silicon.

Nope. The silicon in my A1200 is 30 years old still working fine, often for days at a time. PCs have been much more problematic for me. The other day my 'entertainment' PC stopped working. I was about to buy another motherboard when I thought "Hey, perhaps it's just the CPU overheating due to old thermal paste?". And I was right. But that wasn't the case with other motherboards that I had to throw away.

Modern silicon is the problem. It's power hungry and delicate. Modern CPUs can't run at full speed for long because they cook themselves - and for what? So the software can get away with being ever more bloated. Modern PCs need a ridiculous amount of silicon to run properly. A 2.5 GHz CPU isn't enough. 4GB of RAM isn't enough. A real hard drive isn't enough. And even then the machine suffers from unexplained slowdowns.

Quote:

Ported software is the easiest path to increased software especially games.

Pointless. Just run the games on the platforms they were designed for.

I thought about porting Tomb Raider to the Amiga. According to my calculations it should run well on my V2 Vampire or a fast 060. I even have the source code. But why bother? Too much effort just to prove it can be done. If I want to play the original Tomb Raider games again I have a PS2 gathering dust and several PCs that can do it.

What we really need are new games designed to run on classic Amigas, especially stock A500s and A1200s which are still available at reasonable prices. This is what will keep the scene alive, not unnecessary ports that need a high-end system. We need it so developers will enjoy using their Amigas to create them, and fans will show their appreciation by playing them (and perhaps even buying them, like a few of us did in the old days).

Last edited by bhabbott on 06-Nov-2024 at 10:03 PM.

bhabbott Quote:

Nope. The silicon in my A1200 is 30 years old still working fine, often for days at a time. PCs have been much more problematic for me. The other day my 'entertainment' PC stopped working. I was about to buy another motherboard when I thought "Hey, perhaps it's just the CPU overheating due to old thermal paste?". And I was right. But that wasn't the case with other motherboards that I had to throw away.

The old silicon is more durable but silicon failures are rare. If new 68k Amigas are as cheap as RPi hardware, then buy a half dozen at a time and toss the ones that break while you are playing with them. The RPi is cheap enough to play with the GPIO ports because there is not much $ to lose. Tossing cheap SBCs is much cheaper than spending time diagnosing failures. I'm not talking about state of the art silicon either but about bringing the 68k up to the silicon used by embedded SoCs which is already a huge upgrade. Now if there is a Carrington Event CME or Nuclear EMP attacks then we would still have our old Amigas to fall back on provided there is electricity.

bhabbott Quote:

Modern silicon is the problem. It's power hungry and delicate. Modern CPUs can't run at full speed for long because they cook themselves - and for what? So the software can get away with being ever more bloated. Modern PCs need a ridiculous amount of silicon to run properly. A 2.5 GHz CPU isn't enough. 4GB of RAM isn't enough. A real hard drive isn't enough. And even then the machine suffers from unexplained slowdowns.

I have been advocating for an enhanced in-order 68060@1-2GHz SoC ASIC at something like 28nm to 40nm. The CPU cores would likely use less power and stay cooler than the original 68060@50-100MHz. Passive cooling is possible although a descent integrated 3D GPU may require cooling if that was decided. An in-order 68k core has the advantage of zero load-to-use latency and higher performance memory access instructions that are the equivalent of 2 RISC instructions.

Cortex-A53 (superscalar in-order RISC core) base
68060+ (superscalar in-order CISC core) +50% performance, +50% transistors, +10% power
Cortex-A72 (superscalar OoO RISC core) +100% performance, +1000% transistors, +50% power
Cortex-A76 (superscalar OoO RISC core) +200% performance, +5000% transistors, +100% power

I don't know the actual number because the fab size shrinks and there are performance and power gains from it. The number are a very rough estimate of the trends. OoO CPU cores are very wasteful of transistors, power and development time. In-order CPUs are relatively affordable to develop and produce. It makes sense to beef up a good in-order core design and then spend the rest of the transistor and power budget on the GPU for low end gaming and hobby hardware. The original Amiga philosophy was a nice CPU to program with hardware to do most of the work so this is similar but scaled up to modern silicon. Jay Miner could have settled for another limited system with 6502 CPU, 64kiB of memory and an improved chipset but he chose to scale up the system to a 68000 with more memory and a better chipset instead. He pushed for more improvements with a 68020, more memory and the Ranger chipset. The whole stay stagnant in the past thing was the CBM philosophy for the Amiga and all did was fall behind and lose customers. Today, Amiga fans aren't buying the old 68000 OCS hardware like they are upgraded 68060 AGA hardware. Some developers will choose to program for the original Amiga limitations and bang the hardware for nostalgia and learning reasons which is fine but it is much easier to develop on and for less limited and more affordable hardware.

bhabbott Quote:

Pointless. Just run the games on the platforms they were designed for. I thought about porting Tomb Raider to the Amiga. According to my calculations it should run well on my V2 Vampire or a fast 060. I even have the source code. But why bother? Too much effort just to prove it can be done. If I want to play the original Tomb Raider games again I have a PS2 gathering dust and several PCs that can do it. What we really need are new games designed to run on classic Amigas, especially stock A500s and A1200s which are still available at reasonable prices. This is what will keep the scene alive, not unnecessary ports that need a high-end system. We need it so developers will enjoy using their Amigas to create them, and fans will show their appreciation by playing them (and perhaps even buying them, like a few of us did in the old days).

Some developers enjoy porting games over, especially if there is a large enough user base to enjoy them. Developers are not motivated to develop for crickets. There are 4 categories of games I can think of.

1. ported games - easiest option gains native games quickly
2. enhanced games - OCS/ECS games can be enhanced to AGA or further with new hardware base
3. emulated/simulated games - performance and a FPGA can improve this category of games
4. new games - a larger standard hardware base with more competitive hardware is needed

Nobody would take your old Amiga hardware away or force you to use new Amiga hardware. If it was affordable enough, I expect you would buy one like most other Amiga fans. Anything new wouldn't be as nostalgic or limited as the original Amiga hardware so some people will enjoy that more. We need more affordable hardware with more modern I/O to keep the user base going and expand it though.

Last edited by matthey on 07-Nov-2024 at 01:20 AM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @OneTimer1 Quote: OneTimer1 wrote: [quote] ppcamiga1 wrote: So what is wrong with 68k? in amiga world? 1. Faster 68k are not produced any more. 2. Amiga world is centered about a hardware that is not produced any more.

for what software you need a multicore system with several Gigahertz?

On 68k all software available works, both on emulation and on accellerated hardware
[/quote]

Maybe you haven't realized, there are no fast 68k any more.

Motorola, Freescale, NXP doesn't even make 68030.

That's what is wrong with 68k.

As long as I want to use 68k Amiga as 'retro gaming platform' I can keep UAE, but the idea of an independent computer platform, died with fast 68ks.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 07-Nov-2024 at 05:22 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 07-Nov-2024 at 05:21 PM.

@OneTimer1

Yes of course 68k is retro

for all available software it is powerful enough

PPC is also retro, just a little faster. And more expensive. And not as retro as 68k

@OlafS25

Quote:

PPC is also retro,

Yes, I never claimed it to be better (at least not in the last 10 years) and I used to tell this to people who where babbling over Power9 all the time.

AOS4 and its hardware is a legal and badly piloted train wreck, back in the time when all where waiting for the A1X1K you could buy a PowerPC G5 workstation for the same price:


Quote:

Terra Soft launched the YDL PowerStation also known as the Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) PowerStation on June 10, 2008 with a base price of $1,895 The YDL PowerStation offers: Four IBM 970 MP cores clocked at 2.5 GHz 8 DDR2 (PC2-5300P) slots for up to 32 GB memory Can unofficially be expanded to 64 GB of memory with 8 GB DIMM ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixstars_Solutions

The AmigaOneX1000 was build without any need, had they used the YDL PowerStation instead they would have had less trouble ...

And the problem with AmigaNG is not the CPU, the real problem is: What OS variant could I get, that runs on common hardware giving me some kind of "Amiga Experience"

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 07-Nov-2024 at 09:54 PM.

OlafS25 Quote:

Yes of course 68k is retro for all available software it is powerful enough PPC is also retro, just a little faster. And more expensive. And not as retro as 68k

I still find your statement "for all available software it is powerful enough" short sighted. Retro doesn't mean 68000@7MHz with 512kiB of memory or even 68060@100MHz with 128MiB of memory. To say either of those specs is enough because it is retro is as visionary as Steve Jobs saying 120kiB is all a Mac will ever need and Bill Gates saying 640kiB should be enough for anyone.

https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Motorola_68000/102658164.05.01.acc.pdf Thomas Gunter Quote:

There were some that customers that weren't quite ready for it: i.e., Steve Jobs at Apple said he'd never put more than 120 Kbytes on the early Macs. And I remember thinking, “Steve you're not right on this one.� But those type things were kind of reinforced in our early definitions. It gave us a step up from what the competition was doing, and particularly not only Intel's products but also the Z8000 product family. There had been such a heavy emphasis on those products, to build an economical 16–bit machine, where we could probably do what Murray said, twice the performance and still try and achieve a cost that was competitive with any architecture. I think eventually we did that.

Unlike the Mac and the PC at the time, the AmigaOS is multitasking so it is entirely possible for performance to degrade and memory to run out, even with 1980s and 1990s software. The Amiga had productivity software that needed more performance and could easily run out of memory. The Amiga was a pioneer in graphics, ray tracing, 3D, Desktop Video, etc. and much of this market went away as performance fell behind (e.g. Lightwave). Compilers are slow with large programs and I've run out of memory compiling large projects. Most 68k developers of large programs or ports of programs cross compile for the 68k Amiga. Then there is newer software that can run on the 68k Amiga with more performance and memory as emulation is showing. More modern ports of web browsers, office programs and games need more performance and memory but the 68k Amiga user base of more powerful hardware is not big enough (virtual systems are usually not a developer or compiler target). Amiga users want and are buying upgraded Amigas not base Amigas. Most of the original 68k Amiga software from 1985 likely could work on modern and compatible 68k Amiga hardware running at several GHz with up to 2GiB of memory. The 68k Amiga is a lot cleaner with less baggage than x86(-64) PC hardware and better off than ARM Archimedes RISC OS 26-bit addressing hardware limitations. Is x86-64 PC hardware that is compatible all the way back to the 8088 PC considered retro? I'm sorry, these limitations are good and what we had was enough is dinosaur thinking. A GiB of memory costs less than a meal and an ASIC 68060@1-2GHz Amiga SoC can be produced for less than the price of the memory. The Amiga market demand is for upgraded Amigas. Is there any logic here or are the dinosaurs, the extreme optimists and the mental cases the only people left after the logical Amiga masses moved on?

OneTimer1 Quote:

Yes, I never claimed it to be better (at least not in the last 10 years) and I used to tell this to people who where babbling over Power9 all the time. AOS4 and its hardware is a legal and badly piloted train wreck, back in the time when all where waiting for the A1X1K you could buy a PowerPC G5 workstation for the same price: Quote: Terra Soft launched the YDL PowerStation also known as the Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) PowerStation on June 10, 2008 with a base price of $1,895 The YDL PowerStation offers: Four IBM 970 MP cores clocked at 2.5 GHz 8 DDR2 (PC2-5300P) slots for up to 32 GB memory Can unofficially be expanded to 64 GB of memory with 8 GB DIMM ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixstars_Solutions The AmigaOneX1000 was build without any need, had they used the YDL PowerStation instead they would have had less trouble ...

The AmigaOS 4 conspirators (Trevor and his fixer Ben) turned up their noses to a wide range of Mac hardware including laptops, the PS3 (and maybe Nintendo consoles too), Efika (real chance at very affordable low end PPC hardware if AmigaOS 4 could scale down half as well the 68k AmigaOS) and the YDL PowerStation (powerful hardware at a good price). Instead, Trevor tried to compete with lower production hardware with cost increasing gimmicks like Xorro and highly questionable CPU choices like the X5000 cores not having SIMD units and the A1222 cores not having FPUs. And then there is no SMP, no working Timberwolf and no Libre Office after years if not a decade of promises. Yea, a "legal and badly piloted train wreck" alright. The Ego trip isn't even done after the train wreck. I think Trevor could go for another lost Amiga decade.

OneTimer1 Quote:

And the problem with AmigaNG is not the CPU, the real problem is: What OS variant could I get, that runs on common hardware giving me some kind of "Amiga Experience"

Most Amiga users on x86-64 are just going to run WinUAE when they want and not install an AmigaOS on x86-64. The x86-64 AROS demonstrates this already. WinUAE has full Amiga compatibility including 68k, chipset and AmigaOS while x86-64 has inferior desktop feature to Windows and doesn't run their Windows software. AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS on x86-64 would have the same issue. RPi has one of the largest standard ARM user bases but an AmigaOS has little hope of gaining much OS share. Most people would say a RPi is the hardware and not the OS even though many AmigaNG (AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and x86-64 AROS) users say the Amiga is the AmigaOS and not the 68k or chipset. The RPi allows other OSs after all but roughly 2/3 of users are likely using Raspberry Pi OS/Linux with more desktop features than any AmigaNG OS. We can see what people are downloading for the RPi at the following link.

https://rpi-imager-stats.raspberrypi.com/

Ubuntu/Linux is the only other general purpose OS having success on the RPi hardware with roughly 10% share. Home Assistant is around 7% but is really IoT/embedded specific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Assistant

Next come RecalBox and RetroPie which are dedicated universal retro emulation hardware OSs at about 2% each which with 50 million RPis would be 1 million users each or 2 million users total for both. This is what is undercutting THEA500 Mini and A600GS and perhaps what RGL realized could be a problem and why they tried to create an ASIC to improve value. Some retro fans go for more accurate and low latency FPGA hardware but the higher price of FPGA hardware makes the market smaller. Low cost 68k Amiga hardware could be produced for a competitive price to RPi hardware and an optional small ~$10 FPGA could be used for chipsets and 8-bit CPUs to gain many FPGA retro users. The Amiga is the 68k, chipset and AmigaOS and it can be very affordable because of the tiny footprint if mass produced. Stop the emulation and deliver value to proliferate the AmigaOS!

Last edited by matthey on 08-Nov-2024 at 01:41 AM.

@ppcamiga1

What is wrong with 68k ?

- No 3D Hardware Support available (asides from "real 68k" but those are really so lowend that it does not help that much)
- Many of those no TCP/IP Stack included (you have to buy extra, and also need extra hardware for it)
- No ways to use the native ARM CPU in code, you can only use the emulated 68k
- Compiler is lacking in comparision to other compilers
- No Support for PPC Software and especially no OS4 (in my opinion by far the most superior Workbench)

On the other hand what is GOOD for it ?

- Cheap (you can get a Pi5 with Amikit for 140 EUR plus whatever Amikit costs (I got one for free from the author so no idea), and if you already have the A1200 the PiStorm is also reasonably cheap (and looking like an Amiga from back then)
- Performant (maybe no x5000 but still - my PiStorm cm4 is half x1000 speed, and my Pi5 is at x1000 speed)
- Currently a lot of users

Both 68k and PPC have advantages and disadvantages. For me as a Software author it makes sense to support both. Both have their fans and a bigger community means bigger sales means a better chance of viability.

MagicSN

@MagicSN

Quote:

- No 3D Hardware Support available

I think of this as an advantage, the quest for 3D is more often than not a huge distraction.

Quote:

- Many of those no TCP/IP Stack included

Ironically the situation on 68k OS3 is much better than on PPC OS4.

Quote:

- No ways to use the native ARM CPU in code, you can only use the emulated 68k

That depends entirely on the emulator, for 68k there are plenty to chose from.

Quote:

- Compiler is lacking in comparision to other compilers

That’s a very non-specific statement - I use exactly the same compiler on 68k as I do on ppc, arm, x86 and amd64 - granted, it’s not for AmigaOS, but the topic here is 68k in general, right?

Quote:

- No Support for PPC Software and especially no OS4 (in my opinion by far the most superior Workbench)

I do not find it superior, I find it unnecessary complicated and messy, as well as bloated and incredibly inconsistent. It is also largely unmaintained, riddled with bugs which takes forever to get fixed. And the TCP stack in OS4 is waaay behind its equivalent for 68k, bugs that were fixed years ago on 68k are still present in latest OS4. I see an update 3 for 4.1 FE was just announced, and as usual nothing about the TCP stack was mentioned, but I really hope Olsen is allowed to include updates of Roadshow this time, sigh.

MorphOS is in a much better state than OS4, and offers a way better experience as well, consistent and tidy.

Last edited by kolla on 09-Nov-2024 at 02:19 PM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: More modern ports of web browsers, office programs and games need more performance and memory

Understatement of the year. Trying to make an Amiga run that stuff is pointless. Even if by some miracle you managed to do it, 2 seconds later an update or something new comes out and you are back to square one.

So I started up my Linux 'entertainment' machine yesterday to watch some TV shows. DRM failed. Time for another update. It's pretty easy on Linux Lite, just click on 'update' and let it do it's thing. Then I rebooted - kernel panic. Tried downloading the full Linux Lite 7.2 and burning it to a DVD - same result. Same on my other Linux machine too (the one I am using now). Oh well, I guess that's it for Linux Lite entertainment. It's now 3am and I'm downloading Linux Mint in the hope that it works better. All this just so I can watch some TV programs. :(

PCs are so much 'fun'! But what other choices do I have? There's my laptop with Windows 10 that struggles to play the video at times, or... nothing.

I don't ask for much, just a web browser that works. But the chances of any 'Amiga' doing that job is practically nil.

Quote:

Is x86-64 PC hardware that is compatible all the way back to the 8088 PC considered retro?

Which x86-64 PC hardware would that be?

No, of course it's not considered retro.

Quote:

I'm sorry, these limitations are good and what we had was enough is dinosaur thinking.

Somebody doesn't understand what retro computing is about.

@bhabbott

Quote:

Which x86-64 PC hardware would that be? No, of course it's not considered retro.

MSDOS / Win3.1 / Win3.11 / OS/2?

There is lot software you can emulate, everything that’s x86 is not retro, but there is lot of interesting old large floppy disks, old stuff people can collect, laser disks and zip drives etc..

There is difference between classic and retro, some one want collect it its original shape unmodified or tampered with, or someone who wants to create something new that’s looks like something old, for exsample Steam Punk is a Category in retro.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Nov-2024 at 05:16 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Nov-2024 at 05:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Nov-2024 at 05:11 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

MagicSN Quote:

- No 3D Hardware Support available

kolla Quote:

I think of this as an advantage, the quest for 3D is more often than not a huge distraction.

Since you do not mind sacrificing 68k Amiga 3D for a 68k emulation platform then you do not mind sacrificing the 68k MMU too?

MagicSN Quote:

- Many of those no TCP/IP Stack included

kolla Quote:

Ironically the situation on 68k OS3 is much better than on PPC OS4.

AmigaOS 3.9 with standard TCP/IP and Reaction for the win?

MagicSN Quote:

- No ways to use the native ARM CPU in code, you can only use the emulated 68k

kolla Quote:

That depends entirely on the emulator, for 68k there are plenty to chose from.

How about just compiling for ARM RPi OS instead and forget the 68k Amiga emulator and box with an Amiga sticker on it? Wouldn't that give the much larger hardware base?

MagicSN Quote:

- Compiler is lacking in comparision to other compilers

kolla Quote:

That’s a very non-specific statement - I use exactly the same compiler on 68k as I do on ppc, arm, x86 and amd64 - granted, it’s not for AmigaOS, but the topic here is 68k in general, right?

Killing the 68k Amiga hardware kills compiler development. PPC AmigaNOne has the same problem. The only question is whether 68k or PPC support will be dropped by GCC first. Proliferate or die and the Amiga in all its forms is choosing the latter with EOL emulation and noncompetitive value hardware.

bhabbott Quote:

Understatement of the year. Trying to make an Amiga run that stuff is pointless. Even if by some miracle you managed to do it, 2 seconds later an update or something new comes out and you are back to square one.

The 68k Amiga does not have much browser support because the minimum specs are too low. The 68k NetSurf browser has more modern support than IBrowse or AWeb but it doesn't run well on most 68k Amiga hardware. NetSurf is considered a lightweight web browsers and there are others which could be ported to the 68k Amiga if there was a large enough base of real hardware with a hardware spec newer than 1994.

bhabbott Quote:

So I started up my Linux 'entertainment' machine yesterday to watch some TV shows. DRM failed. Time for another update. It's pretty easy on Linux Lite, just click on 'update' and let it do it's thing. Then I rebooted - kernel panic. Tried downloading the full Linux Lite 7.2 and burning it to a DVD - same result. Same on my other Linux machine too (the one I am using now). Oh well, I guess that's it for Linux Lite entertainment. It's now 3am and I'm downloading Linux Mint in the hope that it works better. All this just so I can watch some TV programs. :( PCs are so much 'fun'! But what other choices do I have? There's my laptop with Windows 10 that struggles to play the video at times, or... nothing. I don't ask for much, just a web browser that works. But the chances of any 'Amiga' doing that job is practically nil.

The 68k Amiga could offer mass produced standardized hardware again to avoid these types of problems, only this time, with a higher hardware spec.

bhabbott Quote:

Which x86-64 PC hardware would that be? No, of course it's not considered retro.

All x86-64 hardware is backward compatible back to the 8088 PC currently. Newer hardware has the BIOS replaced by UEFI but this is firmware which is low level software even though it may be in a physical ROM or flash memory.

45 Year Old DOS on a New Intel CPU Without Emulation (Amiga market share in 1980s is shown)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNHHUmVZh8

Configuring everything to use the x86-64 compatibility is a nightmare which is why DOSBox exists when the hardware is capable of playing retro PC games without emulation. The switch to UEFI is also making compatibility more difficult which is why retro compatible x86 hardware is popping up like the $69 USD ZimaBlade mentioned in the video above and also used as a SBC server. There is also the WeeCee using a Vortex86DX SoC which may be more retro PC specific.

The weeCee: A Tiny New MS-DOS & Windows Gaming PC!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USHvvSbYmJA

https://www.vortex86.com/products/Vortex86DX Quote:

DM&P Semiconductor Inc. is proud to provide the MPU based Vortex86DX x86 microprocessor. Vortex86DX is an x86 compatible System-on-Chip (SoC) manufactured with a 90nm process and designed to consume less than 1 watt of electricity.

The 68k Amiga with chipset and ROM standard is similar to the x86 with BIOS standard but much cleaner. The 68k Amiga is lacking an ASIC SoC though so we have a tiny fraction of the value for 68k hardware.

bhabbott Quote:

Somebody doesn't understand what retro computing is about.

The ZimaBlade and weeCee are much upgraded x86(-64) hardware from an 8088 PC but offer full backward compatibility including BIOS and some older I/O. Are they retro devices?

@matthey

Quote:

Since you do not mind sacrificing 68k Amiga 3D for a 68k emulation platform then you do not mind sacrificing the 68k MMU too?

What do you mean? There is no sacrifice, I already have 68k MMU.

Quote:

AmigaOS 3.9 with standard TCP/IP and Reaction for the win?

No, but Roadshow for 68k receive updates whenever Olsen is ready, while Roadshow for OS4 receives updates like... never.

That said - all IP stacks on Amiga are ANCIENT RELICS that should _NOT_ be pushed into layman's market.

Quote:

How about just compiling for ARM RPi OS instead and forget the 68k Amiga emulator and box with an Amiga sticker on it? Wouldn't that give the much larger hardware base?

That already exists without Amiga branding.

Quote:

Killing the 68k Amiga hardware kills compiler development. PPC AmigaNOne has the same problem. The only question is whether 68k or PPC support will be dropped by GCC first. Proliferate or die and the Amiga in all its forms is choosing the latter with EOL emulation and noncompetitive value hardware.

No, for both - Amiga is neither the largest 68k platform nor the largest PPC platform, especially not for developers on those archs.

Quote:

The 68k Amiga could offer mass produced standardized hardware again to avoid these types of problems, only this time, with a higher hardware spec.

Mass produced standardized hardware already exists, I don't see what "new" a mass produced 68k Amiga would bring that would benefit anyone. Other than a few niche "markets" that are much too small for "mass production".

Last edited by kolla on 09-Nov-2024 at 08:40 PM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

kolla Quote:

What do you mean? There is no sacrifice, I already have 68k MMU.

So real 68k CPUs for you but no 3D or MMU for the 68k+ virtual 68k Amiga?

kolla Quote:

No, but Roadshow for 68k receive updates whenever Olsen is ready, while Roadshow for OS4 receives updates like... never. That said - all IP stacks on Amiga are ANCIENT RELICS that should _NOT_ be pushed into layman's market.

PPC AmigaOS 4 has TCP/IP, USB, RTG and 3D support out of the box while the lower class 68k AmigaOS has more updates for a TCP/IP add-on? Bragging rights?

kolla Quote:

That already exists without Amiga branding.

Part of the AmigaNOne and AmigaNOwhere strategy to take over the dumpster out back?

kolla Quote:

No, for both - Amiga is neither the largest 68k platform nor the largest PPC platform, especially not for developers on those archs.

Are you sure? Show me a link to 68k hardware that is half as powerful as the x86 SoC hardware I posted in my last link. The same business actually has 4 ASIC SoCs.

https://www.vortex86.com/products/Vortex86DX2
https://www.vortex86.com/products/Vortex86DX3
https://www.vortex86.com/products/Vortex86EX
https://www.vortex86.com/products/Vortex86EX2

The Vortex68EX2 has a nice feature of being able to run 2 OSs at the same time.




With 68060 and 68000 cores and a small FPGA for chipsets, 68000 consoles could run on a core. Similar hardware virtualization is not needed but the ability to have "assigned memory areas" for cores would be a nice feature without a 68000 MMU.

These are just embedded ASICs using older chip fab processes which the 68k doesn't have or there would not be all the emulation crap.

kolla Quote:

Mass produced standardized hardware already exists, I don't see what "new" a mass produced 68k Amiga would bring that would benefit anyone. Other than a few niche "markets" that are much too small for "mass production".

It is difficult to know the size of the retro 68k market because it is so divided. I believe the RPi is one of the larger players due to value with the RecalBox and RetroPie images suggesting 2 million users. This does not count users using UAE on top of other OSs which could be significant. Not all are 68k users but an affordable FPGA could simulate 6502 family hardware like the NES and SNES or a 68060 core could use emulation which is better than a Cortex-A53 due to elimination of load-to-use stalls. There are WinUAE users, FPGA hardware users, Mini users, etc. too. I believe THEA500 Mini and A600GS miss most of the 68k retro market with 90+% of users using a better value RPi instead.

I believe the potential 68k Amiga market alone is much larger than the maybe 100,000 users that dabble with the low value retro toys available. The hardcore Amiga fans that remain are very tolerant of crap hardware that isn't going to lure back the fair weather Amiga fans. The 68k Amiga was about elegant hardware and virtual Amigas are blasphemy to the Amiga philosophy. DMA offloading the CPU is a joke when the CPU has 100% usage all the time from emulation. The 68k Amiga market will return when Amiga fans can remove the bags over their head due to embarrassing hardware.

@MagicSN

Answering the question: Why is 68k+ (specifically emu68) good?

MagicSN Quote:

Performant (maybe no x5000 but still - my PiStorm cm4 is half x1000 speed, and my Pi5 is at x1000 speed)

Love it.

Last edited by agami on 10-Nov-2024 at 01:03 AM.
Last edited by agami on 10-Nov-2024 at 01:02 AM.
Last edited by agami on 10-Nov-2024 at 01:02 AM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: There is difference between classic and retro, some one want collect it its original shape unmodified or tampered with, or someone who wants to create something new that’s looks like something old, for exsample Steam Punk is a Category in retro.

Retrocomputing
Quote:

Retrocomputing is the current use of older computer hardware and software. Retrocomputing is usually classed as a hobby and recreation rather than a practical application of technology; enthusiasts often collect rare and valuable hardware and software for sentimental reasons. Some retrocomputing enthusiasts also consider the "homebrewing" (designing and building of retro- and retro-styled computers or kits), to be an important aspect of the hobby, giving new enthusiasts an opportunity to experience more fully what the early years of hobby computing were like... Retrocomputing (and retrogaming as aspect) has been described in one paper as preservation activity...

The second paragraph is important because it stresses the desire for an authentic retro experience. So a modern reproduction of a 68k CPU might be considered 'retro' if it performs like they did in the 1990's, but one that runs at the speed of modern systems - and therefore attracts software that needs it - is stretching the definition too far.


@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: All x86-64 hardware is backward compatible back to the 8088 PC currently. Newer hardware has the BIOS replaced by UEFI but this is firmware which is low level software even though it may be in a physical ROM or flash memory.

There's a lot more to a PC than just a CPU that runs x86 code. Some things you won't find on a modern motherboard:-

- ISA slots.
- parallel printer port.
- RS232 serial ports.
- Floppy drive port.
- IDE hard drive port.
- CPU with performance identical to an 8088, 8086 or 80386SX.

For that last one you might say, so what? It's very important if you want to know what it was really like to eg. play Doom or run Windows 95 on a 16MHz 386SX. That's why I bought two 386SX motherboards and an Amstrad PC2086 (and ISA video and sound cards, hard drives etc.) even though I already had several older Pentium motherboards and systems.

The same thing applies to the Amiga too. Some people are happy enough with emulation, but I need a stock A500 to get the true experience of one. I never finished the TF530 card I started building because there was little point when I already have a 50MHz 030 in my A1200 (with totally period hardware including the accelerator card, hard drive and PCMCIA network card that I have had since the 90's). It's also why I bought several sealed boxes of 'new old stock' Fuji DD disks, so I could continue to enjoy using high quality floppy disks (that aren't moldy and full of crap that will destroy your drive) like I did back in the day.

Unfortunately many YouTube videos purporting to show retro computers in action are actually done on modern machines that usually don't have identical performance. This also applies to most videos of other retro machines too. Luckily a few people like Zeusdas have stuck to using real hardware.

@bhabbott

Quote:

There's a lot more to a PC than just a CPU that runs x86 code. Some things you won't find on a modern motherboard:- - ISA slots. - parallel printer port. - RS232 serial ports. - Floppy drive port. - IDE hard drive port. - CPU with performance identical to an 8088, 8086 or 80386SX.

I would love to see a solution of a fpga 1200 amiga so that you still was able to connect past accelerator boards, clock port devices, (in the same line you today have some consoles being emulated which accept cartridges), and an integrated flicker fixer for running on a crt because I am feeling lucky.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@matthey

Quote:

So real 68k CPUs for you but no 3D or MMU for the 68k+ virtual 68k Amiga?

As I wrote - I don't care about 3D, and there is barely anything to sacrifice in the first place. MMU on the other hand _is_ here and would be a sacrifice if it by some magic disappeared, but it won't - I really don't grasp what your point is here, virtual 68k Amiga with MMU has existed for like 2 decades already and isn't going away.

Quote:

PPC AmigaOS 4 has TCP/IP

Just the bare minimum - the exact same Roadshow that exists for 68k, except that updates apparently are never pushed to end users. Olsen would be the first to express that Roadshow is not by any means a full featured "modern" IP stack.

Quote:

USB

Also bare minimum, Poseidon on Amiga 68k (and AROS) is more capable.

Quote:

RTG and 3D support out of the box

Obviously you don't have any OS4 system, do you.

Quote:

while the lower class 68k AmigaOS has more updates for a TCP/IP add-on?

Yes, this is actually important to me - a broken/semi-working IP stack is a heck lot more frustrating than non-existing 3D support.

Quote:

kolla Quote: That already exists without Amiga branding. Part of the AmigaNOne and AmigaNOwhere strategy to take over the dumpster out back?

What? You asked "what about compiling for ARM RPi OS instead and forget the 68k Amiga emulator?" - this obviously exists already, and has nothing to do with Amiga.

Quote:

Quote: No, for both - Amiga is neither the largest 68k platform nor the largest PPC platform, especially not for developers on those archs. Are you sure? Show me a link to 68k hardware that is half as powerful as the x86 SoC hardware I posted in my last link. The same business actually has 4 ASIC SoCs.

What? x86 has nothing to do with this at all - the question was about 68k, PPC and Amiga - the largest PPC platform hands down is old macs and not Amiga, and for 68k I suspect that's also the case. If you look at what majority of developers on PPC use, it is certainly not Amiga. For 68k the numbers are probably more in favour of Amiga, but I suspect that a majority of 68k developers are still targeting old classic mac 68k hardware, and not Amiga. With a few exceptions, only Amiga developers care about 68k Amiga, and they aren't exactly high in numbers.

Why you are dragging x86 SoCs into this I really don't know.


Quote:

With 68060 and 68000 cores and a small FPGA for chipsets, 68000 consoles could run on a core.

This exists already.

Quote:

Similar hardware virtualization is not needed but the ability to have "assigned memory areas" for cores would be a nice feature without a 68000 MMU.

This exists already, all Minimig cores have assigned memory areas that are for dedicated use - for example to hold the kickstart, and in case of MiST... RTG, and Toccata etc.

Quote:

It is difficult to know the size of the retro 68k market because it is so divided. I believe the RPi is one of the larger players due to value with the RecalBox and RetroPie images suggesting 2 million users.

I have a few colleagues, friends and neighbours who use these - _none_ of them care about, or even know of, Amiga and 68k. But more to the point - a 68k SoC would be of no use for them, as a 68k SoC would most not be able to run any of the emulators they want to use.

Quote:

This does not count users using UAE on top of other OSs which could be significant.

Oh come on, please! It isn't! If it was significant, we would know!
Look at the support forums and discords for WinUAE, FS-UAE etc.

Quote:

Not all are 68k users but an affordable FPGA could simulate 6502 family hardware like the NES and SNES or a 68060 core could use emulation which is better than a Cortex-A53 due to elimination of load-to-use stalls.

Ah yes - the "gunnar argument" - let's make a superfast 68k FPGA system so we can run emulators, because that's so much better than emulating 68k!

And what "load-to-use stalls"?

We already have affordable FPGA systems that cover just about all other systems and people are suporhappy about them (MiSTer and clones).

Quote:

There are WinUAE users, FPGA hardware users, Mini users, etc. too. I believe THEA500 Mini and A600GS miss most of the 68k retro market with 90+% of users using a better value RPi instead.

Because there isn't a "68k retro market", it's a "retro gaming market"

Quote:

I believe the potential 68k Amiga market alone is much larger than the maybe 100,000 users that dabble with the low value retro toys available.

Why? Really - why?!

Being such a strong believer, how come you barely have any 68k hardware already?

Quote:

The 68k Amiga was about elegant hardware and virtual Amigas are blasphemy to the Amiga philosophy.

"Blasphemy, I tell you!"

Quote:

DMA offloading the CPU is a joke when the CPU has 100% usage all the time from emulation.

You have of course done thoroughly testing of this, with all available emulators?

Quote:

The 68k Amiga market will return when Amiga fans can remove the bags over their head due to embarrassing hardware.

Only thing that's embarrassing when it comes to Amiga is the number of nutcases, but hey... we love you too!

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Quote:

Also bare minimum, Poseidon on Amiga 68k (and AROS) is more capable.

There seems to be power problem on some motherboards, there are two USB drivers for keyboard that can conflict, easy to disable one. Streaming support has been lacking but should be in beta, so should come with the next update.

Quote:

Quote: RTG and 3D support out of the box Obviously you don't have any OS4 system, do you.

Mostly correct, most GFX drivers come with 3d support, with exception of demo version of RX driver, that one requires the enhancer package. The HD driver should support warp3d out of the box, but not the newer 3D API’s. I believe,
Quote:

Quote: while the lower class 68k AmigaOS has more updates for a TCP/IP add-on? Yes, this is actually important to me - a broken/semi-working IP stack is a heck lot more frustrating than non-existing 3D support.

I can’t comment what is improved in TCP/IP stack, but can make comment on what problem is, its actually newlib that does not support socket sharing. This is a major issue should be solved with clib4.
Quote:

the largest PPC platform hands down is old macs and not Amiga, and for 68k I suspect that's also the case.

I have not found any active retro 680x0 community for macintosh, when I looked for compilers, os7today has not been updated in ages, MacOS software do not bang hardware, so the 68K software works on PowerPC, imac’s are basically part of retro Macintosh computers. I believe the Atari 680x0 community far more active, just because of the demo scene.680x0 Macintosh computers was far more popular in the USA.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@NutsAboutAmiga

I didn’t say those old Macs necessarily run old MacOS.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC