@matthey

I don't hate 68k
show me native 68k as fast and as comfortable
as cheap pc from win95 era and I will use it
why not?
I hate scumbags that try to force people to switch 68k
when 68k is still when it was in 1992
too slow too outdated

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

try to force people to switch 68k

who is **FORCING** you? How are they **FORCING** you?

Quote:

The BlizzardVision. That's literally the only graphics card ever created specifically for an Amiga equipped with a PPC as far as I can tell. Even the CVision worked with the 68K only CSMK3.

You had also mediator and Prometheus PCI expansion, still what I was talking was more from a theoretical pov, and you have own raspberry pi gf chip being accessed and there's nothing stopping 68k having expanded capabilities who allowed him access the same kind of gfx boards Amiga x5000 has

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @agami Quote: Emu68 on Raspberry Pi 5 is just as fast as X1000 Raspberry pi 5 be used on pistorm due to latency, and afaik there's no draco like system being used on standalone. How do you get those values? I would love to see it though, and running games on instances of uae.

I am deliberately making bullish and bombastic claims. My source for this claim is a statement @MagicSN made in another thread.

The key thing is, we have not yet tapped the full potential of emu68 when combined with a Raspberry Pi. There is growth here.

But there is no growth of @ppcamiga1's beloved PowerPC Amiga.

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@agami

Faster ARM hadfware (that Pi5 is) and further ARM optimizations.
Beside hardware lock by Kickstart and few drivers OS4 is plain unoptimized
for target CPU and under developed.

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@ppcamiga1

In tests Apollo V4 has faster mem access then x1000
Per Mhz is also faster, and AMMX yields more results then few Altivec OS4 apps.

Only problem is there is no 1Ghz 080 ASIC

Last edited by vox on 11-Nov-2024 at 11:44 AM.

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@vox

yes it is still fpga
it means it is still too slow

@ppcamiga1

Do you expect to sustain a whole cottage industry servicing your particular PPC Amiga requirements? Trevor is a generous man but he makes PPC machines for himself not necessarily for you!

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vox Quote:

In tests Apollo V4 has faster mem access then x1000 Per Mhz is also faster, and AMMX yields more results then few Altivec OS4 apps. Only problem is there is no 1Ghz 080 ASIC

FPGAs are high performance and high tech but suffer from routing inefficiency. The performance potential often exceeds a CPU for parallel workloads. The Cyclone series is the low end of Intel Altera FPGAs. The following data is typical and may vary within the series.

FPGA series | fab size | memory
Agilex 10nm DDR5|DDR4|LPDDR5|LPDDR4
Stratix 14nm DDR4|DDR3|DDR2|DDR
Arria 20nm DDR4|DDR3|LPDDR3
Max 55nm DDR3|DDR2|LPDDR2
Cyclone 28nm DDR3|DDR2|LPDDR2

The Max series uses a larger fab size to allow built in NOR flash that does not scale to smaller nodes. This avoids a separate flash chip. The RPi RP2350 SoC MCU has an option to stack a NOR flash chip on top of the MCU chip to save space which sounds like it would be a good option for FPGAs.

system | SoC fab size | memory
Sam460 90nm DDR2
X1000 65nm DDR2
X5000 45nm DDR3
A1222 45nm DDR3

RPi_3 40nm DDR2
RPi_4 28nm LPDDR4
RPi_5 16nm LPDDR4X

Gunnar has considered moving up to a larger and faster FPGA for a high end FPGA Amiga system. The Arria series could allow DDR4 memory bandwidth which is better than any PPC Amiga system but the CPU clock speed may only double and maybe not that as I understand it so the performance increase may not be worth the cost. There are other options like high speed SerDes for more modern I/O and IP blocks that may accelerate performance in certain cases. The most expensive FPGAs get very expensive like as much as a car or even house. Gunnar has options to move up to a newer or more expensive FPGA. PPC options are looking like old tech compared to FPGA and RPi hardware and will just get older as PPC AmigaNOne hardware fades out of existence.

Last edited by matthey on 12-Nov-2024 at 01:10 AM.

@ppcamiga1

Its fast at 80Mhz (v2) and up to 100Mhz (V4)
Now imagine ASIC of 1Ghz plus. Thats what we need fundraiser
instead of waiting on OS4 miracles like Libre etc.

Also, see how fast ApolloOS progressed compared to OS4
and AmiKit XE or MorphOS. These are good solutions.

Simply quit OS4, its run by liars, money grabbers and incompetent personnel.

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@matthey

Aria or Cyclone3 plus results were demonstrated, but such board was never avail.
I still wait to see 200Mhz plus 080 MMX

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@BigD

Trevor is generous, but missdirected.
He invested in OS4 instead in OS 3.2 plus and AROS and MorphOS.

What a mistaka di maka! (Allo Allo reference)

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@agami

Quote:

Apollo 080+SAGA+AMMX+Maggie 3D is overall better than PS1

that’s extremely low bar, 3D on PS1 was pretty horrible. Most likely a lot more 3d games on a PlayStation One, as well. And I do not think you have the CPU power on 080 to emulate PS1, so argument makes no sense to me.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Nov-2024 at 08:31 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Fixed point 3D, low texel depth and a propensity to use affine texturing because perspective correction was slow. Yep, the PS1 was actually pretty terrible in hindsight.

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vox Quote:

Aria or Cyclone3 plus results were demonstrated, but such board was never avail. I still wait to see 200Mhz plus 080 MMX

I believe the higher end and larger FPGAs were in FPGA developer boards. The AC68080 and predecessors were simulated in FPGA dev boards before Majsta provided the Vampire requiring a cut down CPU core to fit the tiny FPGA. I don't even recall the Natami having a FPGA CPU board even though Jens was working on the N68050 at the time but maybe they put it in with the SAGA chipset. Thomas tested with real 68k CPUs from what I recall.

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

that’s extremely low bar, 3D on PS1 was pretty horrible. Most likely a lot more 3d games on a PlayStation One, as well. And I do not think you have the CPU power on 080 to emulate PS1, so argument makes no sense to me.

The V4SA is probably close to being able to emulate the PS1 and it is unlikely to be optimized for AMMX. The PS1 3D and AMMX both use fixed point integers so AMMX may be able to provide a pretty good boost. More CPU performance is easier though. The PiStorm with RPi 4 is a few times better performance which looks like it is adequate performance for PS1 emulation.

PSX Emulator on Amiga 1200 + PiStorm32 Rasp4b1GB@2,2GHZ ... tested V-Rally, Einhander & Motoracer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcIa5EvXTc

Last edited by matthey on 12-Nov-2024 at 11:30 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @agami Quote: Apollo 080+SAGA+AMMX+Maggie 3D is overall better than PS1 that’s extremely low bar, 3D on PS1 was pretty horrible. Most likely a lot more 3d games on a PlayStation One, as well. And I do not think you have the CPU power on 080 to emulate PS1, so argument makes no sense to me.

Emulate PS1?

The argument is that the resurrected 68k+ in FPGA is at the level of being able to run many of those late '90s games being ported to AmigaOS 4 to much adulation.

So port to 080+SAGA+AMMX+Maggie 3D instead. There are more users, plus there's the added bonus of pissing off ppcamiga1.

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@agami

PlayStation 1 is a 33.8 Mhz computer. resultion PAL 4:3
PlayStation 2 is a ~ 300Mhz computer
PlayStation 3 is a 3.2 GHz computer, resultion 720p

Just to compare the PlayStation 1,2,3,4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptiN9yeQlB4

I’m sure that some games do not need lot more CPU power,
(Running Tetris on a 4Mhz or 5Ghz computer makes no difference.)

But texture quality and 3d models are a lot better with newer hardware.
Newer games typically has larger resolution as well, the graphic card is important.

the last powerpc for Amiga in late 90's is a:

Bizzard CyberStrom PPC 604 is 233Mhz.

Quote:

The argument is that the resurrected 68k+ in FPGA is at the level of being able to run many of those late '90s games being ported to AmigaOS 4 to much adulation.

Some of the Hyperion Entertainment games from the late 90's, that has been re-released.

Run on 68060 50Mhz, you don't need 68080 to run Heretic II,
but the game Sin is a bit more demanding on the CPU.

Well… not all games are from the late 90’s there is a lot of games after 2000.

https://www.youtube.com/@huguesnouvel-hunoppc-7562/videos

Doom 3 is from 2003
Pray 2006
WipeOut W.I.P is not the old version, it has more detailed texture and higher system requirements.

AmigaONE A1222 computer is 1.2Ghz CPU with DDR3 memory.
AmigaONE X1000 computer is 1.8Ghz CPU with DDR2 memory.
AmigaONE X5020 computer is 2Ghz CPU with DDR3 memory.

So faster then PS2 but slower than PS3.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

OK, looks like I need to go back to the beginning:

@ppcamiga1 argued that unless the 68k camp makes something as capable as a cheap PC from the late '90s, he's not interested. He also mentioned that the graphics and 3D on 68k are worth nothing (crap).

Then I explain how the Apollo V4 SA is at the level of a cheap PC from the second half of the '90s, with it's graphics and 3D capabilities above the PS1.

While there might be a few ported titles from the early 2000s, the majority of titles that have been ported to AmigaOS 4 have been from the '90s.
Yes, there are different machines of different specs and at different price points. What generally draws a developer to make a new game or port an existing game is weighted in favour of market size.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote: @BigD Trevor is generous, but missdirected. He invested in OS4 instead in OS 3.2 plus and AROS and MorphOS. What a mistaka di maka! (Allo Allo reference)

Trevor's PPC OS investment has focused on the "System 54" fork. Hyperion's OS4 doesn't officially support "System 54".

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

Well… not all games are from the late 90’s there is a lot of games after 2000. https://www.youtube.com/@huguesnouvel-hunoppc-7562/videos Doom 3 is from 2003 Pray 2006 WipeOut W.I.P is not the old version, it has more detailed texture and higher system requirements.

As I said earlier, beyond 2005 is where unified shaders and SMP started to become more common for games. AmigaOS 4 has optional Warp3D Nova support for the unified shaders but lacks SMP. A virtual 68k+ Amiga has neither. Also, many later x86-64 games require more single thread performance than either have.

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

AmigaONE A1222 computer is 1.2Ghz CPU with DDR3 memory. AmigaONE X1000 computer is 1.8Ghz CPU with DDR2 memory. AmigaONE X5020 computer is 2Ghz CPU with DDR3 memory. So faster then PS2 but slower than PS3.

The PS3 PPC CPU/PPE has a very deep pipeline for the high clock speed and many integer instructions have 2 cycle latency instead of the common single cycle latency. The CPU stalls easily and often has long stalls due to the deep pipeline. Single thread CPU performance is more comparable to a PPC CPU at half the clock speed while SMT can extract more total CPU performance with two threads and careful programming again. The X5000 CPU would likely be good enough to play PS3 games but the SIMD unit, SPEs and chipset would be challenging to emulate. Some simple PS3 games may have been PPC recompiles that the X5000 could emulate. The caches play a role in CPU performance which should be considered.

PS1 4 kiB instruction cache, no data cache, 1 kiB scratchpad memory
PS2 16 kiB instruction cache, 8 kiB data cache, 16 kiB scratchpad memory
PS3 32 kiB L1 instruction cache, 32 kiB L1 data cache and 512 kiB L2 cache

The PS3 CPU caches were a big improvement from the PS2. At least this minimized memory latency for the unusual in-order PPC CPU design.