@amigang

I'd love to see AOS4 finally free from PPC and stupid management, even though it's not listed as an option :p

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So I was hoping this thread would be more about people posting their ideas for Amiga products rather than just challenging or discussing mine. I hope there more ideas out there.

@Gebrochen

Quote:

Emulators we have plenty and spoiled for choice, not sure what advantage there is for more? Os4 wise there's two that come to mine, QEMU and FLOWERPOT

Your right but I kinda meant more of a Amiga Forever type package, that would be easier for end users to use and also a Os with improvements to make the emulation experience better, like the virtual gfx driver that has been announced or support for more virtual memory, stuff like that, a tweak version of Os4.1 that designed to be the best for emulation purposes.

Quote:

New a1200 keyboard really????? Why???? There are so many options for everyone but A1000 users, literally.....Every time I go to search for keyboard all I read is a1200 or a500 already Try a google search "Amiga usb Keyboard" What comes up is by memory simulatrans, of whom are still selling mechanical usb keyboards as a secondary option for (technically all Amigas if one buys an adapter)

I mean one with the correct Amiga layout, that could also fit Amiga cases. Simulator “Amiga� keyboard was basically the standard 108 keys pc layout with Amiga stly keycaps, something I done for myself years ago. I want the Amiga layout.

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@amigang

A Frankenstein beast with a Raspberry Pi 5 connected to a FPGA running AxRuntime and Emu68!

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@amigang

Quote:

...people posting their ideas for Amiga products rather than just challenging or discussing mine.

Sorry, but at first I thought you where just putting up some kind of poll.

----

I don't see a reason for some new under powered over priced hardware.

There is enough cheap hardware available, make this somehow Amigaish:

MorphOS4 on ARM or X64
Amiberry with 3D, video and support to call Linux software from Amiga, shared drives and clipboard
AROS 68k on Amiberry using 3D wrappers for ARM and ARM video acceleration.
AOS4 Open Sourced together with Draupnir ( Odin's magic ring) the ring might be easier.

@pixie

Quote:

A Frankenstein beast with a Raspberry Pi 5 connected to a FPGA running AxRuntime and Emu68!...

as I understand barebone, there is no OS below Emu68, this how it can map the MMU so, that memory map works with AmigaOS, AxRuntime runs on top of Linux, so this two things are not compatible with each other. (AxRuntime is also not backwards compatible with Amiga500 games.)

“a FPGA�

you can already do that with a minimig, there is a 680x0 socket on it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2025 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2025 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jan-2025 at 09:51 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga
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An hypervisor of sorts. I didn't say it was a beautiful Frankenstein, alas it has everything to be quite ugly.

As for not being compatible with Amiga 500, you just need to be able to call the FPGA from it. Like runinuae.

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@amigang

1. A standalone FPGA Amiga AGA clone with an A1200 CPU edge connector for any current and future A1200 accelerator cards.

2. A standalone Pi HAT-based middle board for Nanomig (cheap FPGA Amiga chipset clone) and RPi CM4 (for Emu68). Middle board with PCIe slot.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: nice cheap amiga fpga clone without arm

Difficult, the Minimig is using an ARM MCU for floppy and HD simulation (AFAIK) the original Minimig was using a PIC MCU but it was inferior to ARM and the FPGA used in Vampire4SL has a built in ARM.

@OneTimer1

He's not even aware of those arm chips, please don't fuel his hatred for arm even more! xD

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@amigang

I'd really just like to see a modern-ish affordable Amiga.

PowerPC would be fine, or a Vampire V5 perhaps, performance isn't critical, maybe aim for something like Raspberry Pi 4 performance, affordability is more important.

I'm not asking for or expecting anything competitive with modern PCs or Macs, something based on RISC-V would be cool, it just needs to be within reach of the typical computer enthusiast/hobbyist.

The X5000, I'd love one, but I can't spend 2400 Euros, i.e. $4000 AUD on a computer I'll only use on weekends.

Affordability I think is the big problem here. I am someone who grew up with Amigas, A500 and A1200, then years ago I got a Sam440, which was fun. I think affordability of a modern-ish Amiga could tempt people like me back. People who love the Amiga, but can't justify $4000 AUD on a hobby computer, but probably *can* justify $1000 or something.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

Difficult, the Minimig is using an ARM MCU for floppy and HD simulation

Not all Minimig implementations do, some (like TC64, Flea and more) just use a second 68k softcore for running "firmware" and I/O.

Quote:

the FPGA used in Vampire4SL has a built in ARM.

What is Vampire4SL? You mean V4SA (stand alone)? It uses a Cyclone V 5CEFA5F23C6N, which as far as I can tell, does not have a built in ARM "hardcore".

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@thegman

Quote:

thegman wrote: Affordability I think is the big problem here. I am someone who grew up with Amigas, A500 and A1200, then years ago I got a Sam440, which was fun. I think affordability of a modern-ish Amiga could tempt people like me back. People who love the Amiga, but can't justify $4000 AUD on a hobby computer, but probably *can* justify $1000 or something.

I agree. It must be sub-$1,000 USD, but even better if it's sub-$1,000 AUD

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All the way, with 68k

@thegman

Amiga 500's 68000 selection and price range are contemporary with mainstream game consoles such as Sega's Mega Drive.

By 1987, 68000 wasn't top tier 68K when it was superseded by 68020 (e.g. Macintosh II) and 68030.

For low price range, ARM Cortex A72 is contemporary with Nintendo Switch's ARM Cortex A57.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: V4SA (stand alone)? It uses a Cyclone V 5CEFA5F23C6N, which as far as I can tell, does not have a built in ARM "hardcore".

You are right, the big advantage of the Cyclone V is its built in ARM core, but the Apollo team is using a version without ARM.

@amigang

I would like to see Amigakits A600GS (and A1200GS) software on a more generic hardware, like the RPi 500.

Idea 3: It's more or less a matter of software. But I would like to see native ARM support in Pistorm driven Amigas, to use one ARM core as a coprocessor in OS 3.x

Idea 4: Look, how Wayfarer performs on HW which is a multitude faster than current Pistorm or Vampire setups. I don't think a fast and uptodate browser is still possible on 68k Amiga incarnations. Better use a little Linux machine and VNC...

_analogkid_ Quote:

I would like to see Amigakits A600GS (and A1200GS) software on a more generic hardware, like the RPi 500.

Both the A600GS and THEA500 Mini could have used the RPi 3 as a low cost base hardware standard which would have made software development and distribution easier. It also would have made upgrading to more powerful OoO CPU hardware and whole computer hardware like the RPi 500 easier. The intention of more proprietary hardware may have been to stop the software from easily being reused on other hardware though. With cheap commodity ARM hardware, one hardware has minimal competitive advantage over another hardware so it is the software that needs to be protected from the competition. Proprietary and less popular hardware acts like a dongle for the protected software.

AmigaKit easily could have made a higher end A600GS model using more powerful OoO CPU cores rather than the low performance in-order Cortex-A53 that has especially poor 68k emulation performance do to a high load-to-use penalty of 3 cycles. Without instructions scheduling for JIT compilation, most memory loads will stall for 3 cycles doing nothing and about 1 in 4 instructions is a load.

typical code instructions
load 26% (Cortex-A53: 4 cycles, 68060: 1 cycle but could be 2 per cycle with dual ported D-cache)
store 10% (typically 1 cycle as data queued in store buffer)
ALU 49% (1-2 instructions per cycle on average)
branch 15% (0-1 cycle average with branch prediction)

There are no load-to-use stalls with 68k CPU designs and the also in-order 8-stage superscalar 68060 easily outperforms the Cortex-A53 in a per cycle comparison for executing 68k code. OoO ARM CPU cores can hide most of the L1 D-cache load-to-use latency but even the RPi 4 OoO Cortex-A72 cores are likely more than 6 times larger times 4 cores and the extra heat required a die shrink from a 40nm chip fab process to a 28nm process which have synergies to increase the cost. The ARM SoCs and SBCs are still very cheap compared to ancient silicon Amiga hardware but that leads to the other problem. Trevor wants to sell his outrageously expensive and hopelessly outdated PPC hardware so their ally AmigaKit has a reason to keep 68k hardware low end. OoO PPC silicon is being outperformed by more modern in-order ARM silicon with the latter having a large cost and power advantage, the reason why the old Cortex-A53 remains popular for Amiga emulation and is still used today despite poor performance.

_analogkid_ Quote:

Idea 3: It's more or less a matter of software. But I would like to see native ARM support in Pistorm driven Amigas, to use one ARM core as a coprocessor in OS 3.x

So more ARM development and less 68k Amiga development? Do you realize that the elegant interrupt driven 68k Amiga design is gone with ARM emulation near 100% CPU core utilization all the time? People want Frankenstein bastardization of the Amiga hardware with the 68k CPU and Amiga chipset avoided wherever possible? Why have a 68k Amiga at all?

_analogkid_ Quote:

Idea 4: Look, how Wayfarer performs on HW which is a multitude faster than current Pistorm or Vampire setups. I don't think a fast and uptodate browser is still possible on 68k Amiga incarnations. Better use a little Linux machine and VNC...

JIT compilation of 68k code is poor performance by modern standards and modern browsers use SMP which severely limits the use of modern browsers for the Amiga. Native code with AmigaOS SMP support is needed and Trevor has failed to provide it on PPC hardware after more than a decade. Modernized 68k hardware could provide better price efficiency (performance/$) than ARM hardware for executing 68k code and has a better chance of allowing AmigaOS SMP with some level of compatibility but Trevor loves his PPC failure and likely wants to unload the rest of his grossly noncompetitive PPC hardware.

Last edited by matthey on 25-Jan-2025 at 08:15 PM.

@_analogkid_

Quote:

_analogkid_ wrote: Idea 4: Look, how Wayfarer performs on HW which is a multitude faster than current Pistorm or Vampire setups.

It for sure is faster, but I'm not so sure on "multitude".

And then you have to ask yourself how low you would need to get on the MorphOS food chain to find a match?

For the PiStorm that maybe a G3 Peg1/2 or SAM460 while with the Vampire we would be in EFIKA/CS-PPC territory.
On the PiStorm (or with other kinds of SW emulation) you could close the gap a bit further by using semi native libraries.

The real issues is and always was SW, updating the SDK and OS components was what made Wayfarer possible, work that would still need to be done on AOS, AROS or any Frankenstein mix of the 2.

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@matthey

Quote:

Both the A600GS and THEA500 Mini could have used the RPi 3 as a low cost base hardware standard which would have made software development and distribution easier.

No? Why?

First of all, RPi3... I presume you mean RPi3B+? Or do you mean RPi3A+? The first maxes out at 1GB of RAM, the latter at 512MB of RAM. Both have wifi and bluetooth.

A600GS has an Orange Pi Zero 3 which has up to 4GB of RAM, and is a lot cheaper as well. So why RPi3?

THEA500 Mini has a custom board, a lot cheaper than RPi3, and specifically no networking, so it doesn't fall into the category of products covered by the PSTI Act and similar, which would be a great economic risk for the vendor. So why RPi3?

Last edited by kolla on 25-Jan-2025 at 09:30 PM.

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@_analogkid_

Quote:

I would like to see Amigakits A600GS (and A1200GS) software on a more generic hardware, like the RPi 500.

Then buy an A600GS and just copy the software over to an RPi500, and for anything that requires recompile, just ask AmigaKit for the sources - the entire foundation for their products is under GPL, so as a customer you would be entitled to the sources.

Quote:

Idea 3: It's more or less a matter of software. But I would like to see native ARM support in Pistorm driven Amigas, to use one ARM core as a coprocessor in OS 3.x

I don't think there's much to gain there. With PowerUP and WarpUP, the speed difference between the 68k and the PowerPC was quite a lot, so despite the shared RAM/caching problem (both CPUs having to flush data cashes to RAM so the other CPU can find it), it was still worth while. This is not the case on a RPi with Emu68, speed of code running under Emu68 is already not that far from that of code running natively, so introducing the complexity is probably not worth it.

Quote:

Idea 4: Look, how Wayfarer performs on HW which is a multitude faster than current Pistorm or Vampire setups. I don't think a fast and uptodate browser is still possible on 68k Amiga incarnations. Better use a little Linux machine and VNC...

As mentioned before and also by others, cpu performance isn't the biggest obstacle for an up-to-date web browser.

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@kolla

Quote:

I don't think there's much to gain there. With PowerUP and WarpUP, the speed difference between the 68k and the PowerPC was quite a lot, so despite the shared RAM/caching problem (both CPUs having to flush data cashes to RAM so the other CPU can find it), it was still worth while. This is not the case on a RPi with Emu68, speed of code running under Emu68 is already not that far from that of code running natively, so introducing the complexity is probably not worth it.

Well, there are three unused cores in these ARM cpus on Emu68. A copro interface would be a "cheap" possibility to use at least one of these. So maybe there's something to gain.

Quote:

As mentioned before and also by others, cpu performance isn't the biggest obstacle for an up-to-date web browser.

These non-related cpu issues look even worse on OS 3.x