So September 16th marks 30 years of the AmigaCD32, I was writing a little blog for my site about it, and I just had some thoughts that Id like to ask the communiuty and what they feel.

Did the AmigaCD32 have any chance of success?

What was the best CD32 game, best to push the hardware? and best Gameplay?

This is what Ai spat out when I asked it, these questions (yes still playing with ai!)
"The CD32 faced several challenges that limited its chances of success:

Timing: The CD32 was released at a time when the gaming console market was dominated by the Sega Genesis (Mega Drive) and Super Nintendo (Super Famicom). Sony's PlayStation was also on the horizon. This intense competition made it difficult for the CD32 to gain a significant foothold in the market.

Limited Game Library: The CD32 had a relatively small library of games compared to its competitors. While it could run Amiga computer software, the console-specific game library was not as robust as what was available on other consoles.

Marketing and Distribution: Commodore faced financial difficulties and struggled with marketing and distribution for the CD32. This limited the availability of the console in various regions, and many potential customers may not have been aware of its existence.

Legal Issues: Commodore faced legal challenges related to patent infringement from XOR which further hindered the CD32's success.

Lack of Exclusive Titles: Exclusive game titles can be a significant driver of success for a gaming console. The CD32 lacked a strong lineup of exclusive titles that could have differentiated it from the competition.

Short Lifespan: The CD32's production was short-lived, as Commodore filed for bankruptcy in 1994. This led to the discontinuation of the console and a lack of long-term support.

While the Amiga CD32 had some technical advantages, such as its multimedia capabilities, it ultimately struggled to compete effectively in the highly competitive console market of the early 1990s. Its chances of success were limited by various factors, including market timing, competition, and business challenges faced by Commodore."

Which I mostly agree with.

Last edited by amigang on 08-Sep-2023 at 05:31 AM.

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@amigang

What was the best CD32 game, best to push the hardware? and best Gameplay?

I feel hardware wise, Microcosm has to be one of them, i remember seeing it run in a shop and being pretty impressive with the graphics. (gameplay was pretty poor)
Next closest one would have to be Alien Breed 3d / Gloom both pretty impressive 3d engines for Amiga hardware I feel.

Gameplay, I remember enjoying a lot of the top down racers, Super Skidmarks and Road kill. But I think the game I think I had most fun with was Simon the Sorcerer (yes maybe a odd choice) but this was the first point and click game I got to play with voices and not having to change a million disks (before I got a Hard drive) so really enjoyed that game and it was well animated, voiced and had a good puzzels, a often over looked adventure game I feel.

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@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: Sony's PlayStation was also on the horizon.

The earliest reference I can find for the PlayStation being "on the horizon" is this from Wikipedia:-
Quote:

Computer Gaming World in March 1994 reported a rumor that the "Sony PS-X" would be released in Japan "before the end of this year and will retail for less than $400"

The CD32 was launched in September 1993. Commodore was defunct by 6 May 1994. Seems hard to believe the PlayStation could have had any effect on CD32 sales during that time.

Quote:

amigang wrote: This intense competition made it difficult for the CD32 to gain a significant foothold in the market.

The CD32 had little time to gain foothold in the market. Nevertheless it managed to outsell the Sega Mega CD.

Quote:

Limited Game Library: The CD32 had a relatively small library of games compared to its competitors. While it could run Amiga computer software, the console-specific game library was not as robust as what was available on other consoles.

One of the attractions of the CD32 is that it would get Amiga titles that were more diverse than console games. It wasn't called the AMIGA CD32 for nothing.

Also it could easily be expanded to full computer status, effectively an A1200 with CD-ROM. The A1200 was also going to get a CD-ROM drive and Akiko so it could play CD32 titles. Amiga games and applications would be distributed on CD like PC titles were.

Of course this all went out the window when Commodore collapsed in 1994.



Quote:

Marketing and Distribution: Commodore faced financial difficulties and struggled with marketing and distribution for the CD32. This limited the availability of the console in various regions, and many potential customers may not have been aware of its existence.

Commodore did advertize the CD32 on TV in the UK, resulting in good Christmas sales.

In the US the CD32 failed due to the XOR troll obtaining an injuction which prevented Commodore from selling them there. This was the final straw that broke Commodore's back. This was big victory for the XOR troll, who crowed about how he had brought down the mighty Commodore! I'm not sure whether Commodore lost the lawsuit due to incompetent lawyers or a corrupt court, but either way this was a shocking injustice. However in business you sometimes just have to roll over and take it. Commodore would have better off paying the troll like other computer makers did.


Quote:

Legal Issues: Commodore faced legal challenges related to patent infringement from Atari, which further hindered the CD32's success.

I haven't heard of this. Do you have a cite?

Quote:

Lack of Exclusive Titles: Exclusive game titles can be a significant driver of success for a gaming console. The CD32 lacked a strong lineup of exclusive titles that could have differentiated it from the competition.

The initial lineup could have been better. Other CD-ROM consoles at the time had similar issues. Had Commodore survived the lineup would have improved with time. We actually did see some excellent titles come through the pipeline even after Commodore collapsed.

Quote:

Short Lifespan: The CD32's production was short-lived, as Commodore filed for bankruptcy in 1994. This led to the discontinuation of the console and a lack of long-term support.

Yes. This was by far the biggest problem. Once Commodore disappeared the CD32 was dead.

We are fortunate that Commodore managed to get the CD32 out at all. I was involved in making an educational title for it, and we barely got it out in time. Very sad, as it was a wonderful machine to develop for (much better than the A500 and CDTV).

@bhabbott

Quote:

Nevertheless it managed to outsell the Sega Mega CD.

… in UK. For a while.

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@amigang

The talkie Simon the Sorceror was a great killer app that I remember seeing being demoed in computer shops in 1993. I would say Guardian is the best system pushing game, bringing Defender into the 3D space perfectly! It also is one of the only CD32 games that uses the controller to its full capability. Even the A1200 version supports the CD32 pad! Obviously, by 1995 Guardian was too late to turn the market around especially without a parent company that cared!

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@amigang

I'd say besides the obvious issue of Commodore going bankrupt, what killed the Amiga CD32 was timing. But that, in turn, is a side effect / same issue that plagued the A1200, i.e. AGA being too little too late.

Maaaaaybe having the CD32 (and, again, the A1200) ready by late 1991 / early 1992 might have led to better results. Heck, who knows, perhaps it might have even saved Commodore. For a while at least.

Unfortunately, I'm quite confident even the ill-fated Hombre/CD64 would have been easily destroyed by PSX, so the CD32 had no chances at all to survive.

Turrican3 Quote:

I'd say besides the obvious issue of Commodore going bankrupt, what killed the Amiga CD32 was timing. But that, in turn, is a side effect / same issue that plagued the A1200, i.e. AGA being too little too late. Maaaaaybe having the CD32 (and, again, the A1200) ready by late 1991 / early 1992 might have led to better results. Heck, who knows, perhaps it might have even saved Commodore. For a while at least.

The Medhi Ali (and Bill Sydnes hire) operational turnaround and face plant certainly caused the "timing" and financial problems. AGA may have been available 1-2 years earlier, the Amiga 3000 likely would have sold better with AGA than ECS, the AGA Amiga 1200 should have been pushed ahead instead of the dead inventory ECS Amiga 600 and the sales of more AGA chipsets in the Amiga 3000+ and Amiga 1200 may have improved economies of scale to lower the price of AGA for a year earlier CD32. Even without the upper management meddling disaster, the Amiga technology needed to be developed faster with gradual modernization and integration.

The original Amiga chipset was designed at Amiga Corporation mostly between 1982-1985. The chip fab process was probably not chose until at least 1983 and financial problems resulted in a roughly decade old but low cost 5000nm process being used from the mid 1970s. C= liked the cheap chip fab process because they were in financial trouble and they wanted the Amiga to be as cheap as possible to turn it into another C64. By 1993, the Amiga chipset was using 2 decade old chip technology except for Lisa which was brought up to CMOS 1500nm, a decade old process at that time. Low cost computer manufacturers need to target transistors/$ but older fab processes start to cost more, the chips use more power (especially NMOS chips like the original Amiga chipset) and not as many transistors can be fit on a chip. Even older chips for budget hardware need to be upgraded over time to keep their value up for competitiveness. C= planned too late for AA+ to be reduced to 2 chips but it could have even been reduced to one by 1993 with performance, power and cost benefits. C= also considered licensing a 68k CPU for a single chip 68k Amiga SoC with further benefits but C= had a leadership problem.

The Raspberry Pi is a low cost "budget" computer today. The RPi 3 was released in 2016 with a single chip SoC using a 40nm process that began in 2008 so about 8 years old. The RPi 4 was released in 2019 with the single chip SoC using a 28nm process that began in 2011 so about 9 years old. The Amiga chipset started using an older process of about a decade and stretched to nearly 2 decades old which is insane for this technology. Jay Miner new the Amiga chipset used older technology than he would have preferred and needed to be enhanced which is why he took the initiative himself to work on the Ranger chipset design in 1986. There wasn't as much computer chipset hardware competition in 1985 and C= likely considered the Amiga so advanced that it was untouchable but it is not when what the competition is developing is unknown and they could use a more modern chip process and better integration. The Amiga chipset was good enough that Sun wanted to license and rebadge Amiga computers as low to mid range Sun workstations with the Amiga 3000UX but C= management botched that too. A Color Sun-2 68010 workstation with 8 MiB of memory, two 71 MiB SCSI disks and 60 MiB 1/4" SCSI tape cost $48,800 in 1986. Sun could have created a higher performance Amiga like chipset using a newer chip process but the workstation market or their share of the workstation market may not have been big enough at that time. Integration was invaluable to bringing an evolutionary computer like the Amiga to market but it was treated like a one and done product by C=. They CD32 should have used the AA+ 1-2 chip chipset using more modern chip technology that was better integrated, higher performance, lower power and cheaper.

Turrican3 Quote:

Unfortunately, I'm quite confident even the ill-fated Hombre/CD64 would have been easily destroyed by PSX, so the CD32 had no chances at all to survive.

The late 1994 released PS1 was also an evolutionary computer for the masses that made hardware accelerated 3D possible like the Amiga had made hardware accelerated 2D possible. Like the Amiga, the technology used was not new but gathered and integrated into a smaller, more affordable and lower power design. The PS1 3D hardware was inflexible and made compromises so it wasn't the best with no perspective correction, shaky graphics at times, distortion when close to objects, etc. The key was that the hardware was cheap and low enough power for a console.

The PS1 technical specifications were finalized in 1993 and its design during 1994. The GPU chip had 1 million transistors, used a 600nm process from the early 1990s and used 11W of power. The AGA upgrade Amiga AA+ chipset would have used 200k transistors on 2 chips but that was only on paper. The reality was the Amiga CD32 still used 3 custom chips with 2 at 5000nm and one at 1500nm. The 68020 uses 200k transistors so a CD32 with single chip SoC containing 68020 and AA+ chipset would have used 40% of the transistor capacity of just the PS1 GPU chip.

Sony PS1 GTE GPU specs
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/sony-gte.g977

One of the earliest good 3D solutions for the PC came from 3dfx with the Voodoo 3D accelerator released in 1997. The 3D only GPU for it had 1 million transistors, used a 500nm process and was 15W. The 500nm process began in about 1993 so they used a roughly 4-5 year old chip process. Sony pushed the technology envelope and gambled on mass production using a modern chip process.

3dfx Voodoo SST1
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/3dfx-sst1.g939

Both the Sony GPU and 3dfx Voodoo GPU were only about 1 million transistors so a 3D GPU could have been added to the Amiga chipset, perhaps even as a single chip SoC in the late 1990s. The Voodoo GPU would have been an interesting choice if it could have been licensed and 3dfx tried to license their chipsets for consoles. C= wasn't very good in the licensing or integrating departments though.

The Hombre/CD64 would have been more flexible for 3D than the PS1 hardware. It's difficult to say what the performance and power use would be if integrated but it would need integration and being new it would need marketing which Sony was very good at while C= was not. Ok, so C= was not good at licensing, integration or marketing. That was a handicap that was rarely overcome, especially for a technology business.

Last edited by matthey on 07-Sep-2023 at 11:12 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 07-Sep-2023 at 11:05 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 07-Sep-2023 at 11:00 PM.

@matthey

"wall of text" - look it up! :)

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@kolla

I did actually find everything he wrote interesting on this occasion and a welcome change to CPU "wall of text" instances!

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BigD Quote:

I did actually find everything he wrote interesting on this occasion and a welcome change to CPU "wall of text" instances!

Thanks. I was answering why the PS1 was such a leap in technology ahead of the CD32. While the CD32 was far from high tech, it still had some nice advantages over the PS1 and may have been able to survive as a budget console. CD32 advantages include the following.

o can cheaply and easily be turned into a computer
o open hardware allows expansion for many uses including embedded use
o cheap and easy to develop, cheap CD media cost and CDs have piracy resistance
o large Amiga software library with many games to enhance for the CD32

The CD32 had a successful launch and it was leveraging these advantages. It only failed because C= failed. You Brits got it and developed some great games too. Chaos Engine, Lotus Trilogy (Turbo Challenge II especially) and Frontier Elite were among the best for the CD32. Pirates and UFO Enemy Unknown are good too. Because of the short CD32 life, few owners had or saw anywhere close to the complete library of games so they often have a different list of good CD32 games. I know I missed some gems I was unable to track down.

@amigang

The one I voted for is "Underpowered". Not only because of the lackluster A1200-based spec + Akiko, but because it was the closest thing to not having the overall hardware platform required to properly enter into the console market.

Before I say more on that, I also have to add that it is almost equal measure many of the other points, such as "Marketing and Distribution", "Lack of Exclusive Titles" and in general "Game Library, and even a lack of scrumptious pancakes.

As much as I liked it at the time, looking at it with more experienced eyes it is hard not to see that the whole thing was poorly executed. Perhaps among the more poorly executed things in Commodore's series of poorly executed things.

And I can tell you what wasn't as much of a factor: Timing.
C= could've released it alongside the A1200 and it still would not have made a difference.
Why?
Because it didn't have the key things needed for success. Starting with the right mix of hardware features.

The ability to expand it to essentially an A1200 is not one of the important features when trying to (re)enter the living room entertainment space.
What was good is that they had a CD instead of a cartridge, and it was 32-bit. And it appears that the entirety of Commodore's marketing strategy was to label it the CD32. That's both the whipped cream and the cherry; what's not to like?
But instead of pancakes underneath, it was a box of pancake mix, minus the mix.

We now know it was a last ditch effort, on a shoe-string budget, to prop the company up for hopefully a purchase by Sony, Philips, or some such.
If the budget was there, and they consulted with game developers on the feature set, they would've released a console for which the developers would care to develop new and potentially exclusive titles, which would then attract gamers beyond those who already have an Amiga computer.

The console would quite possibly have a minimum of 030, and an Akiko that wasn't half baked.
The only expansion that belongs in the living room is the FMV module. And they should've kept the PCMCIA for some future-proofing. E.g. Adding a modem for dial-up multiplayer.
And possibly reintroduce the Joyboard for some unique living room fun for the whole family.

Also, you can't just drop console hardware on the market like it is just another personal computer. The console would need to sell at or near cost, and the profits would come from game publishing licenses: Like every other game console maker.
That way, it would look more appealing and not much more expensive than an SNES or Sega Mega Drive (Genesis).
And then by 1995 it could've still been sold by being priced lower than the Sega Saturn and the Sony Playsation.

Commodore had the right, if not perfect engineering team to be competitive in the gaming console market. They just happened to also have zero business acumen required to properly enter this market. And the company being in dire straits is no excuse for doing a half-arsed job.

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@agami

I agree with most of the above.

One thing does anyone know if Commodore collected commission on games published for the cd32? Sega, Nintendo, Sony, all collect a fee on every game sold on there console. There also an advantage to this as they all have the same box style layout, but cd32 games box where all over the place.

If they had done this they could of maybe sold the cd32 at half the price and made the difference on the games which might of really made it a bigger success.

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@amigang

For me CD32 was a foot in the door, a stop gag if you will, but it would need a serious next step development console to take advantage of the momentum, but sadly that time never came.

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If only Commodore had chatgpt back then ^^

Quote:

1. How could Commodore have managed the development and release timing of the CD32 and AGA chipset more effectively to better compete in the market? 2. What strategies could Commodore have employed to upgrade the Amiga chipset and keep it competitive with evolving technology? 3. Given the importance of 3D graphics in gaming, how could Commodore have addressed the lack of a dedicated 3D GPU in the CD32 and other Amiga products? 4. In hindsight, what steps could Commodore have taken to improve its licensing, integration, and marketing efforts, especially when introducing new technologies like the Hombre/CD64 chipset? 5. How important is staying at the forefront of chip fabrication technology in the computer industry, and what lessons can be learned from the Amiga's reliance on older chip processes?

Quote:

Effective Development and Release Timing: 1. Market Research and Trend Analysis: Commodore could have conducted thorough market research and trend analysis to identify the optimal release window for the CD32 and AGA chipset. Understanding the competitive landscape and consumer demands would have been crucial. - Streamlined Development: Streamlining the development process for the AGA chipset and CD32 could have reduced delays. Effective project management and resource allocation are essential for timely product releases. - Flexible Manufacturing Contracts: Commodore should have negotiated flexible manufacturing contracts to accommodate changes in product release schedules without incurring substantial costs. 2. Upgrading the Amiga Chipset: - Continuous R&D Investment: Commodore should have consistently invested in research and development to upgrade the Amiga chipset. Regular updates to improve performance, power efficiency, and graphics capabilities would have been essential. - Integration of 3D Graphics: Recognizing the growing importance of 3D graphics, Commodore could have integrated a dedicated 3D GPU into the Amiga chipset or developed an add-on card to address this need. - Collaboration and Licensing: Exploring partnerships or licensing agreements with graphics hardware manufacturers (similar to 3dfx) could have provided access to cutting-edge technology. 3. Addressing the Lack of a Dedicated 3D GPU: - Dedicated 3D Accelerator: Commodore could have designed and integrated a dedicated 3D graphics accelerator into the CD32 or other Amiga products to meet the demands of 3D gaming. - Compatibility with 3D Expansion Cards: Offering expansion slots for 3D graphics cards would have allowed users to upgrade their systems for 3D gaming, providing flexibility without requiring a complete chipset overhaul. 4. Improving Licensing, Integration, and Marketing: - Licensing Expertise: Hiring experts in licensing and partnerships would have enabled Commodore to negotiate better deals and integrate third-party technologies effectively. - Strategic Partnerships: Forming strategic partnerships with software developers, game studios, and hardware manufacturers could have improved product integration and marketing efforts. - Focused Marketing: A more focused and aggressive marketing strategy, including highlighting the unique features and capabilities of Amiga products, would have increased brand visibility. - User and Developer Engagement: Building a strong user and developer community through support, resources, and events could have created a loyal ecosystem around Amiga products. 5. Importance of Chip Fabrication Technology: - Competitive Edge: Staying at the forefront of chip fabrication technology is crucial in the computer industry to maintain a competitive edge. Advanced fabrication processes enable better performance, power efficiency, and cost-effectiveness. - Adaptability: Companies should be adaptable and willing to invest in upgrading technology to keep pace with industry standards. Relying on outdated chip processes, as seen with the Amiga, can result in loss of competitiveness. - Strategic Planning: Companies must strategically plan for chip technology upgrades and ensure they align with product development timelines. This involves understanding the lifecycle of technology and anticipating shifts in the market. - Continuous Innovation: Investing in research and development for new chip technology or collaborating with semiconductor manufacturers is essential for long-term success. In summary, Commodore could have improved its competitiveness by better timing product releases, upgrading the Amiga chipset, addressing the 3D graphics demand, improving licensing and marketing efforts, and staying current with chip fabrication technology. These strategies would have positioned Commodore and the Amiga brand more effectively in the dynamic computer industry.

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@amigang

Quote:

ne thing does anyone know if Commodore collected commission on games published for the cd32?

No, it was an open platform with no licensing for release of games. You can tel that from the low RRP of the titles compared to Nintendo and Sega at the time! I bought my favourite CD32 game, Speedball 2 for £12.99 in 1995/96! The Acid Collection including Guardian, Roadkill and Super Skidmarks was £29.99!

_________________
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@agami

Quote:

The ability to expand it to essentially an A1200 is not one of the important features when trying to (re)enter the living room entertainment space.

I disagree, that was an USP compared to other consoles of the era and the reason that I bought it! The Sony PS3 also toyed with the same concept years later and I would have been an early adopter of that console if they'd supported Yellow Dog Linux a bit better and provided mouse and keyboard support for Red Alert 3!

Also, the fact THEA500 Mini can run Workbench through AMiNIMiga gets DPaint into the living room like the A600 probably did to a lesser extent! We've out Nintendo'd Nintendo as they tried a similar thing with the pointless Mario Paint and mouse gimmick!

Last edited by BigD on 08-Sep-2023 at 01:16 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Apart from all those NTSC CD32's that commodore never got to sell as they couldn't pay the firm that manufactured them, there was one other problem that sometimes gets overlooked.

Too much choice! At the time looking to upgrade from my A500 I was tempted by the CD32, A1200, A4000 030, A3000 (on special offer) & the A2000 also on special offer which I ended up getting. The A500 Plus & A600 were also still on sale. Each have there good & not so good points, even now if I could only have one Amiga I would struggle.

Initially the CD32 had the big disadvantage of not actually coming as an actual computer so in my head at the time if I got it I would need to keep my A500 for computing. My Amiga options state of mind has come flooding back!

Last edited by Tpod on 08-Sep-2023 at 06:26 PM.

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@Tpod

Quote:

Initially the CD32 had the big disadvantage of not actually coming as an actual computer so in my head at the time if I got it I would need to keep my A500 for computing.

But it did quickly get support to become a full on computer. The SX-1 was fast out of the gates and the better SX-32 models came in 1995 through 1996 far eclipsing what you could do with an A500!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

True & if the SX-32 was available before I bought my A2000 the CD32 would have been back in the running to some degree. I doubt if I would have gone for it personally though as I have always seen the CD32 as a straight forward Games Console; transforming it into a computer just doesn't feel right to me. It was certainly A nice practical option though.

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A2000+Supra28mhz+9mbRAM+OS3.2.2, CD32 & WinUAE

@Tpod

Yes, especially as CD-Rom support and multi-button controller support was so borked on the wedge Amigas especially!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios