In discussions some time ago around the announced “full size� Amiga console by Retro Games, the topic of Amiga keyboards came up. Yesterday I found some old sketches for various keyboard layouts, including those for existing (Norwegian) Amiga keyboards, and decided to illustrate my ideal (more or less) “modern� Amiga keyboard incarnation based on the sketches. One criteria for me is that it must fit in the “garage� of an A1000 (simply because mine lacks a keyboard), which is roughly 40 cm wide, and from what I’ve measured, my suggestion should be well within the margins.

So here goes… discuss, flame, prais, whatever
My hope is just that someone with resources (skill, time, economy, patience) may pick it up and make it a reality one day.

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@kolla

With the announcement of A1200NG and the fact you can buy new A500 & A1200 cases, we really need a new Amiga Keyboard that can fit them cases and machine, but also could be used as just a USB keyboard.

Thats one of the few Amiga product Im surprised no one really made yet.

The only one, Im aware of is the KA59 Mechanical keyboard for Amiga 1200, which is a lot of money and I think is kinda hand made and not designed to be a usb keyboard, which is shame.

There has also been PC keys with Amiga branded keycaps, but, like I said I think there would be a interest in a Amiga keyboard that could be both use in real Amiga and USB.

I hope that Retro Games with there rumoured Amiga maxi solves this. Or if not I heard Steve jones might look into it after his monitors have been shipped.

Last edited by amigang on 26-Dec-2024 at 12:05 PM.

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@kolla

I'd really like to see an actual compact USB Amiga keyboard (a bit like my CHERRY ML 4100 (28 CM wide)). My desk space is pretty much fully occupied so for me small is beautiful; perhaps most other folks have more room.

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@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: With the announcement of A1200NG and the fact you can buy new A500 & A1200 cases, we really need a new Amiga Keyboard that can fit them cases and machine, but also could be used as just a USB keyboard.

I like Kolla's proposal, but I see some problems with his design as a replacement for Amiga1200 ( A1200NG ?) keyboards:
Size of replacement cases and the keyboards and pin out on the connectors must be compatible to the original keyboards, if not they may not work.

So his proposal might not work in an A1200NG.

At the other hand, there are some replacement keyboards but they are expensive:
https://rastport.com/products/KA59/

@OneTimer1

This is not meant as a keyboard to use in A1200 case, obviously.

This is for an external keyboard (or if someone wish to make a new type of breadbin Amiga). It has all the keys that other Amiga keyboards have, I have only moved them (A600 and A1000 keyboards have less keys).

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@kolla

Logitech makes/made a 38cm wide K780 which has a similar compact layout with numpad.

The layout you shared is pretty much fine, but I would make some minor adjustment to the key assignments to find a balance between common keyboards of today and that of a uniquely Amiga keyboard, e.g. '@' being assigned to CAPS+2.

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@agami

No compromise - this is meant as an Amiga keyboard, for those of us who actually want to use and even prefer real Amiga keyboards. For anyone who want a more PC-like keyboard there are numerous options available already, just use a PC keyboard and whichever adapter that fits the hardware.

Where certain chars and symbols are located depends on the language for which the layout is made for, so where @ is located is up to you, your language’s standard keyboard alyouts, and eventually your layout editor - that’s not what this is about. The only reason my proposal shows the layout it does, is because that is the standard Norwegian layout on any Amiga, the entire “main� is identical to that of the A600.

Oh, and I made another proposal, even more compact and with a bit of gap between the arrow keys, main and numpad (where the 0 key has shrunk) to make it easier to feel.

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Just for fun... an A900™� :)

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @agami No compromise - this is meant as an Amiga keyboard, for those of us who actually want to use and even prefer real Amiga keyboards. For anyone who want a more PC-like keyboard there are numerous options available already, just use a PC keyboard and whichever adapter that fits the hardware.

Are these Amiga keyboard purists also using your key assignments in the past?
Because here in 21C we have a thing called the internet, which uses a lot of @ and #, which are nowhere to be found on your mock layout.

But I see you've included back-slash: Something every trad Amiga user needs I presume.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Because here in 21C we have a thing called the internet, which uses a lot of @ and #, which are nowhere to be found on your mock layout.

Have you ever used a real Amiga? And why are you obsessing over the Norwegian layout? @ and # are where they have always been - shift-alt-2/3. Just like US layout has æø and å on alt-a -o and -q. I guess you didn't know that. To help you FOCUS I have now removed _all_ chars and symbols, so you won't get so mind-numbingly DISTRACTED by something totally irrelevant and off-topic.

Quote:

But I see you've included back-slash: Something every trad Amiga user needs I presume.

Yes, it is commonly used as escape character, especially on this ... Internet thing... that you mentioned? You see, much (if not all) Internet stuff, is kinda Unix based, and there backslash is the ultimate escape character - I use backslash much more than I use @ as email addresses isn't something I enter manually that much these days, it _is_ 21st century after all. But backslash is also an Amiga thing, where it sometimes, depending on context, is used as an escape character along with asterisk and tick (not single quote, not back-tick, just tick) and also as delimiter, for example when constructing Workbench menus using ARexx. But you know this, of course.

Last edited by kolla on 05-Jan-2025 at 07:10 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 05-Jan-2025 at 07:08 AM.

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kolla Quote:

Just for fun... an A900™� :)

The Amiga model number was the target price so I would prefer A200 or at least A300.

kolla Quote:


I prefer the cursor key offset but I do not like the numeric keypad '0' key narrowing. The '0' key is pushed with the thumb and narrowing it causes the thumb to be placed at an uncomfortable position under the hand.

https://www.wikihow.com/Ten-Key Quote:

7 Type the 0 with your thumb. This is part of the "home row" position, too.

The left and right outside of the keyboard, the shift keys and the space bar can be narrowed slightly to potentially squeeze the full size '0' key in or at least with only a few millimeters widening of the keyboard. The '~', tab and CTRL keys are wide for a compact keyboard. Perhaps the DEL key could be narrowed to the same size as the backspace and placed directly above it with a small space between a normal sized HELP key which could be aligned with the keypad which may look better?

agami Quote:

Are these Amiga keyboard purists also using your key assignments in the past? Because here in 21C we have a thing called the internet, which uses a lot of @ and #, which are nowhere to be found on your mock layout. But I see you've included back-slash: Something every trad Amiga user needs I presume.

The US keyboards have shift 2 as '@' and shift 3 as '#' which are useful in modern times while the '#' is common in 68k assembly. Kolla's layout also changes the keypad '(' and ')' keys good for C and equations to '[' and ']' which could be useful for HTML while the '{' and '}' instead of NumL and ScrL is probably an ancient Unix/Linux thing rarely used anymore. It would be nice to move the NumL and ScrL to separate keys with LEDs above the keypad but there is not much room to do so without moving the power and drive LEDs and Amiga symbols further up on the case which could be done. Is Amiga keyboard familiarity or improvement more important? Perhaps A600 keyboard designers faced the same dilemma before deciding to simply chop the Amiga keyboard or maybe they were lazy considering kolla's designs are already an improvement over an A600 keyboard?

@matthey

Quote:

Kolla's layout also changes the keypad '(' and ')' keys good for C and equations to '[' and ']' which could be useful for HTML while the '{' and '}' instead of NumL and ScrL is probably an ancient Unix/Linux thing rarely used anymore.

...

Apparently keymaps/layouts are confusing, here is a photo of a real (dirty) Norwegian A3000 keyboard, for reference.



The Amiga numpad keys have had these alternative "PC labels" ever since A500/A2000, as it was not entirely uncommon to have PC bridgeboards etc installed. And yes, it also would make sense for AMIX to support that functionality of those keys (and, if my memory serves me right, ViNCEd also can make use of them), and yes Linux and NetBSD also make use of them.

Last edited by kolla on 05-Jan-2025 at 09:05 AM.

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kolla Quote:

Apparently keymaps/layouts are confusing, here is a photo of a real (dirty) Norwegian A3000 keyboard, for reference.

The Norwegian keyboard is a finger Olympics layout. Losing the '(' and ')' keys from the keypad defeats the purpose of putting them there on other Amiga keyboards. Parentheses are often used with number entry.

1. accounting negative numbers use parentheses
2. spreadsheets and other programs often use parentheses in equations
3. C and C like languages use parentheses often and C is the default language of the Amiga

The '{' and '}' are used with numbers representing sets in mathematics but are the least likely to be used here. The '[' and ']' represent inclusive intervals in mathematics along with '(' and ')' which represent exclusive intervals but again are not so common except for HTML programming. Are '{', '}', '[' and ']' used for other purposes in other countries? I would expect a better default layout based on frequency of modern use for the keypad would be the following but you probably do not like it being a Linux IT guy?

qualifier | keypad keys
none ( )
shift [ ]
alt { }

I understand why the layout was changed and that removing the Norwegian keypad removed basic keys. How did the A600 remap the '{', '}', '[' and ']' keys?

@matthey

I have a task for you - install all keymaps on your Amiga, select them one by one from Prefs/Input hit "use" and for each start KeyShow to see how the various layouts map the numpad. You will find that it's not a Norwegian thing, it is quite widespread.

Quote:

How did the A600 remap the '{', '}', '[' and ']' keys?

Where they always are, ALT + same location as on US layout. I believe it is almost general rule that all Amiga layouts are the same once you press an ALT key. The A600 doesn’t lack input to any char or symbol, everything is available. The problem is software with hardcoded rawkeys on numpad.

Last edited by kolla on 06-Jan-2025 at 09:20 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 05-Jan-2025 at 06:15 PM.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: So here goes… discuss, flame, prais, whatever

Just doing as requested.

While I do prefer keyboards without a numpad (I plug in a separate USB numpad keyboard when needed), I do acknowledge that many others, e.g. accountants, developers, like to have the dedicated numpad.

In which case I do prefer the more compact approach you've proposed here.

I also know you're trying to preserve some of the classic elements of an Amiga keyboard, such as the size of Function keys, which I'm sure you'll tell me are used more than the regular keys in some fringe scenario.
Outside of that, I don't see why we couldn't reduce (compact) the width of the Function keys to a standard key width, clearing the space above the numpad so that it can be moved up by a row, restoring the full width '0' on numpad, and placing the logo and smaller (compact) LEDs in-between the main keys and the numpad.

Last edited by agami on 06-Jan-2025 at 10:55 PM.

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@agami

Allright, I explored your ideas somewhat - reduced size of F-keys to "ordinary", reduced "help" and "delete" to same as alt, amiga, and ctrl.

The "A900"



An A1000 keyboard

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@kolla

Long time, no see.

I actually started on a simple USB keyboard with Amiga layout about a million years back, but life got in the way. It was supposed to fit in A500 and A1200 cases, because people were looking at new main boards for these. The main issue was getting wide enough space bars and 1.25 key wide Ctrl caps, as standard PC layout doesn't have a 1.25x1 cap in row 3 (some of the reason Amiga keyboards are so good are that the top of the key caps make a curve). Whether the best option for that is to use a bottom row key cap or a 1x1 key from row 3, I honestly don't know. A custom key cap is quite expensive, a mold can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars. The 1.5 wide keys in row 5 are also problematic, btw. But I think most of them can be regular width without affecting much quality of life. If you go for regulr size DEL and HELP, you can fit a third key there and F1-F5 and F6-F10 both can easily gain an extra key while keeping the original dimensions.

Anyhoo, the _main_ thing stopping it was as usual "life" and "cost". Hard to make it stiff enough without either using 2mm PCB (and for 120x480mm that's expensive) or a stamped steel backing (which is hard for a hobbyist project).

But do we have a "reference" design of the circuitry by this point? Most keyboard projects I see out there start with "and then I need to implement the firmware" which I quite frankly have no wish to do.

Edit: Holy poop, I had not looked closely at an A1000 keyboard. That is a freaky layout.

Last edited by olegil on 06-Jan-2025 at 11:13 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 06-Jan-2025 at 11:09 AM.

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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Hmm. I see that with pcbway, a 450x140x2 mm PCB only costs about USD10 in production volumes, so that's not a show stopper at all anymore.

But getting people to agree on a minimum viable product has always been this communitys achilles heel.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

Long time, no see.

Woo, indeed!

Regarding keycaps, yes - injection molding is super expensive, but we do now have new key caps from A1200.net, and people have found a couple of ways to attach them to commonly available key switches. That is why my initial proposals (all the way up) uses a blend of A1200 and A600 keys, as these are caps you can order as a kit already.

There are already PCB designs available for A500 (and A600) keyboards with original mitsumi switches, so at this point the most technically challenging is perhaps the case... layers of plywood has worked before, eh?

This is A600 keyboard with just numpad added

Last edited by kolla on 06-Jan-2025 at 03:00 PM.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @agami The "A900"

I think we have a winner. Nice work.

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