@Britelite

"Just face it, the PC's have better CPU's and GPU's, so they will run circles around anything OS4-related."

Not necessarily better GPU. Otherwise true.


I believe when coding for high performance HW (1ghz+CPU, 3D GPU) they rather focus in artistic design of their production rather than trying to optimize the last cycle out of CPU/GPU (or trying to use some less advanced development environment than the competitor).
Classic/Legacy HW demoscene is different and current AOS4 HW does not have any room in between classic and modern.


I wonder if they "bang the HW" with x86 demos?
I doubt, as PC HW is not standard and GPUs are not publicly documented, they most likely can not do it.

I wonder if demo makers would be interested in "FPGAGA++" GFX card to play with...
It would give them change to use FPGA tricks for their demos.

Last edited by KimmoK on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:12 AM.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

I stand to be corrected by Britelite, but I don't think many (if any) PC demo coders "bang the HW" today, maybe in the past during the times of DOS. Remember early PC demo's doing 3D using software renderers in simple colours... wouldn't be surprised if some banging was going on then :)

Must admit though, that when you think of what type of games could have been made for 060 Amiga's, fully optimised code with tons of banging - I think the titles would be quite impressive, be it platforming games or 3D-based games, we would have had some impressive games to enjoy.

It would be dream for the top demo makers to get together and produce the best-in-class 3D engine for Amiga classics to show what the Ami could really do. Let's say a much updated version of Genetic Species

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:16 AM.

@Tomas

>What would be left if they went ppc and RTG?? Then might as well just stick with the latest pc hardware since the amiga is basically idle then.
>Again these demos basically show what the gfx chipset as well as the 68k architecture is capable of as well as give the coders a real challenge.

To me it seems the challenge in classic is the limited HW.
And as said, on latest Amiga 68k demos, 90%? of the work is done by the CPU, so "amiga is basically idle" already. (as CPU != Amiga)

Last edited by KimmoK on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:17 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK
Quote:

Not necessarily better GPU.

Well, in a PC you can at least use that GPU to its full potential, unlike nextgen Amigaish systems...

Quote:

I wonder if they "bang the HW" with x86 demos?

No. It's not possible, modern OSes don't allow that and these are hugely complex massively parallel beasts with a huge variety with no sane bedroom coder in mind would aim to support with his demo, and it's usually not necessary, because current shader languages are so flexible you can basically do software rendering on the GPU, with no fixed rendering pipeline to limit you.

Quote:

wonder if demo makers would be interested in "FPGAGA++" GFX card to play with... It would give them change to use FPGA tricks for their demos.

Maybe it would be interesting to some people, but I don't think it would ever get mainstream. FPGA based expanded system are there on the 8bit scene for many years now, but apart from some experiments, it never really took off. And the 8bit scene is way bigger than the Amiga.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

Not necessarily better GPU. Otherwise true.

Yes they do, and like Chain-Q said, they have better drivers.

Quote:

I wonder if they "bang the HW" with x86 demos?

Not really, but that would also be the case with AOS4 demos.

Quote:

I wonder if demo makers would be interested in "FPGAGA++" GFX card to play with...

Most likely no

BTW, while we're at discussing nextgen and demoscene, I'd like to point out that Serenity by Elude works fine on MorphOS (as usual with Elude demos).

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Chain-Q

Although it maybe seems quite distant for the Amiga Demo developers to switch to OS4.1, and although OS4.1 hardware is not quite up to date. But we are moving on with new stuff, so it would have been fun with an active NG Demo Scene. Pc's is off course much better in all areas , but think it makes it more boring, nothing surprises me anymore, i miss the days i constantly said WOW!! to an effect or motion ..

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@noXLar

Quote:

But we are moving on with new stuff, so it would have been fun with an active NG Demo Scene

To get an active NG Demo Scene, you just need to start doing stuff yourself, instead of waiting for people to switch over from classic Amigas.

@noXLar

I think the pricetag of NG hardware is somewhat offputting for democoders.
Amiga Forever or your old Classical hardware is available and presents a hardware limiation that seems
challenging and fun.
I can imagine its hard for someone that doesnt plan to use the machine as his main computer to spend 2600 euros to code a few demos per year.

Ofcourse you got the 440 and 460 at a somewhat cheaper pricetag, but ye.

@noXLar
Quote:

Pc's is off course much better in all areas , but think it makes it more boring, nothing surprises me anymore, i miss the days i constantly said WOW!! to an effect or motion ..

Did you take a look the winner of the Revision 2014 PC 64k compo, The Timeless by Mercury yet?

Otherwise what Britelite said.

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@thread

Demos where inpressive in the past, when computers had problems displaying big moving pictures with good sound.

Today, I could have a fancy video on a USB stick or on Youtube and display it everywhere.


---

I believe demos should be interactive like games, otherwise you can replace them by video on youtube.

Last edited by Arko on 23-Apr-2014 at 12:08 PM.

_________________
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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

I agree with you for the most part.

Im more awestruck when I see new effects on C64 or Classic Amiga, than on Wintel PCs.

That said; there are still quite impressive Wintel/PPC production that got you glued to the screen and cranking up the stereo volume, but for the most part thats due to artistic prowess vs the limits they impose on themselves thru max filesize.

I can easily be impressed by NG productions with filesize in mind.

@Britelite

Quote:

Just face it, the PC's have better CPU's and GPU's, so they will run circles around anything OS4-related.

It runs circles around anything any thing Amiga1200/4000 related as well, its not the lack of PowerPC support that bugs me the most, the the fact that this demo might have worked fine in 640x480 on a 68060 instead of 320x200 AGA, that really bugs me.

I simply fail to understand how scarifying 640x480 for 320x200 is a hard to do or even a challenge, whit less powerful hardware you can do less should be pretty understandable.

They have been using the same c2p routine in all the demos, its not like they are doing anything new.

Consider this a Demo is more then how fast it runs, its the music, the transitions between effects, and does the demo tell a story, the wow factor.

And to answer you other question, whit more CPU power you can have more 3d objects, more detailed 3d objects, and better light effects, basically the demo will look better and be just as impressive, considering all extra effects and details you can do.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

the fact that this demo might have worked fine in 640x480 on a 68060

Trust me, it wouldn't have.

But hey, if you want more RTG-demos, then why don't you go ahead and make some? :)

Last edited by Britelite on 23-Apr-2014 at 03:15 PM.

@Britelite

Quote:

Trust me, it wouldn't have.

Are you sure, doom 68k, quake 68k I belive does run in this resolutions on 68060, whit RTG

http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-57831.html

Quote:

But hey, if you want more RTG-demos, then why don't you go ahead and make some? :)

its not that simple the best demo groups have spent countless hours making there own demo engine over the years, they are almost perfected.

First time I realized this was whit Red Sector Demo maker.

I can do some simple effects like what you see in old OCS demos
I can do some 3d calculations, but backface cutting is some thing I'm having problems whit.
don't ask me about track loaders and audio playback, I have no idea.

I have realized that too many countless hours on AMOS PRO/Blitz Basic did not make a demo coder.

Whit the expected immediate replacement of MiniGL/Warp3d whit some thing else, it has not really interested me to learn MiniGL.

Besides I think its more important to spend my time on applications, shore there are many things I like to do, but its not possible to do every thing.

So it better if the people who have spent countless hours perfecting there demo engines pull some new tricks up from there hat, and make it even better, that's what I think.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 03:59 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Are you sure, doom 68k, quake 68k I belive does run in this resolutions on 68060, whit RTG

Take the framerate of the demo and divide it by four, that's approximately the speed you'll get ;)

Quote:

So it better if the people who have spent countless hours perfecting there demo engines pull some new tricks up from there hat, and make it even better, that's what I think.

And they probably will, but the tricks aren't going to be the ones you want.

@Britelite

You quoted me before added the link:

http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-57831.html

pan1k & rvo_nl is playing Quake at 800x600 whit Picasso96 and MC68060.

I say its more then likely the demo will able to run in higher resolution if it was RTG,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz5bQuyxwkc

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:06 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

pan1k is playing Quake at 800x600 whit Picasso96 and MC68060.

Read the whole thread ;)

@Britelite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJaD3VjJvZc

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:27 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJaD3VjJvZc

And that's 3D accelerated (and first one on a PPC)...

Last edited by Britelite on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:27 PM.
Last edited by Britelite on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:26 PM.