@Seer

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Seer wrote: @AMiGR 9 pages in less then a day about nothing.. Even if it it isn't it must be some kind of record..

About nothing?

Spreading bigotry and hatred, then running away without facing the consequences is nothing?

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Ya Husayn!

Moderated by Wiffy, reason: borderline flamebait comment being edited out to allow the thread to be returned to free-for-all.

Last edited by Wiffy on 30-May-2005 at 01:18 PM.

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~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

@Seer


I took personal offence to being called a bad parent because i don't belive in Billsey's personal choice of deity in another thread and expanded upon it here.


Moderated by Wiffy, reason: borderline comment being edited out to allow the thread to be returned to free-for-all.

Last edited by Wiffy on 30-May-2005 at 01:19 PM.

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Ya Husayn!

@nicholas

oh god help me i just checked my point total it read 666.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkk

_________________
Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@jkirk

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jkirk wrote: @nicholas oh god help me i just checked my point total it read 666. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkk

Burn baby burn!

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Ya Husayn!

Quote:

jkirk wrote: @Atheist Quote: I don't know why that makes you laugh, I read it in the Bible. tell me where cos i have never seen such a passage it does however state that he gave us freedom of choice and wants us to choose him but will not force us to. sin entered because we chose to be rebellious the devil (lucifer) hates and fears us.

Hi jkirk,

I couldn't wait for someone to ask.

Let's see, who started this? God or man?

God created us, put us in the "perfect" environment.

Was it "perfect"?

NO!

It had the dreaded "Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil". (Keep in mind the NAME of this tree.)

God created a man, and surprise, surprise, even though all the animals were paired up, he overlooked pairing man, "with it's kind".

What was curious, though, is that he had certain "bits", that were ready for a woman, but in HIS oversight, it took the discontent of the man for god to see the error of his ways (and god doesn't make errors? Oopsi, there's one.)

Now, the human element has gone up 100%.

So, we have angels, whatever they are, an exclusive one off, "god", and one more intelligent species, man. All quite different.

Angels, I have no clue what their "job" was, but they had free reign of the entire UNIVERSE. They could go any and everywhere. They, without question, know almost everything that could be known. They probably only don't know how god itself came to be. I wonder if they know how they were spawned, and could they make matter, or energy, or more angels?

Could angels fly through a sun? How tall are they? Do they wear clothes? Before or after Adam and Eve? Are they male or female? Can they bless people? What is a bless? (Speaking of clothes, why did Jesus wear clothes? He was an absolute non-sinner, he had an OBLIGATION to not wear clothes. This is something I hadn't considered before, I really don't think there is any answer that could satisfy me, to believe in god now. It's called hypocrisy.)

Adam and Eve were asked to tend the Garden of Eden, apparently it would fall apart if they weren't there to "rescue" it. So much for god's much hearlded "perfect" environment.

So, instructions from god, "work and tend the garden, I give you food and good weather". "Thanks god, where's the Nintendo??"

"Oh, BTW, don't eat from the poison tree, you'll die, I promise."

Apparently Adam was too stupid to chop it up into fire wood.

So, Eve's (she also didn't make firewood) strolling around, and a snake starts talking to her (is that strange? Apparently not.)

It says to the tune of, have lunch, it's good.

She says, well, if gods not looking, after all, he can't be everywhere, she dines.

Does she die? No.

Adam then then eats too, same argument used. Does he die? NO. (We're batting 1000 now.)

Remember, ALL the snake had to do to prove to Eve was that she WOULDN'T die. And I'm sure the snake did.

They didn't run to god and say, "we met some 'creature', and it said otherwise to your claims, what should we do?"

Why didn't that happen? Well, we wouldn't be here now, would we? See, it defeats the purpose, the purpose that god wanted all of everything that has happened to have happened. The good AND the bad. ALL of the vile badness. God wanted us to experience all the suffering that came of that fateful event.

Now, you CAN'T blame Eve. Why?

Although it doesn't say so in the bible, I WILL interpret a bit here.

Eve says, "I will die".

Devil says, "no you won't".

Eve says, "show me in some way".

The devil feeds an animal some fruit, it doesn't die.

Oh, wait, the animals are more intelligent than humans, and know that they can't eat that fruit so run away.

The Devil knows this would be the case, so, can angels transform? The Devil transformed into a serpent, so, lets say a follower of the Devil transformed into a pig or monkey, came over, and ate the fruit. Did it die? NO!

Then, the serpent eats a fruit! Does it die? NO!! (He doesn't even get indigestion, I'll bet.)

Well then! Bon appétit!

So, god put the making of our downfall there. God allowed Satan an audience with us. God, who is "everywhere" was nowhere to be found, when we needed him to save us. God didn't post an angel as a sentry to keep us from eating from that tree. He didn't surround it with landmines, barbed wire, proximity sensors to warn him, nor did he use surveillance cameras. (Very low tech dude.)

NOW, why did Adam and Eve disobey god?

First, the serpent "proved" that what god said wasn't true, that they would die, EVEN if it was a trick, because the serpent was immune from it. It doesn't matter, because at the "end of the day" no one, died, did they?

Second, and very important, it was "Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil".


Adam and Eve weren't Evil,.....BUT.....they weren't G O O D either!!!!!!!!

They weren't "good" to be ones to obey god's wishes. They weren't "good" to fulfill any of god's aspirations of them.



NOW, we get to the "fear of god" in god.

Try finding it. It's in the first four pages of your bible.

@thread

Just wondering where Billsey is through all this mess? Probably sitting back and laughing.

@Atheist

now to clear this up

Quote:

Let's see, who started this? God or man? God created us, put us in the "perfect" environment. Was it "perfect"? NO! It had the dreaded "Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil". (Keep in mind the NAME of this tree.)

god created eden and said you have full reign over this land but do not eat from the tree of good and evil

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God created a man, and surprise, surprise, even though all the animals were paired up, he overlooked pairing man, "with it's kind". What was curious, though, is that he had certain "bits", that were ready for a woman, but in HIS oversight, it took the discontent of the man for god to see the error of his ways (and god doesn't make errors? Oopsi, there's one.)

man was created to never die why would you need a pairing

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Angels, I have no clue what their "job" was, but they had free reign of the entire UNIVERSE. They could go any and everywhere. They, without question, know almost everything that could be known. They probably only don't know how god itself came to be. I wonder if they know how they were spawned, and could they make matter, or energy, or more angels?

angels are the messengers of god they are the middlemen of god after adam and eve were kicked out of eden. angels were also given the ability to choose and as a result lucifer turned against god in plotting the downfall of humanity.

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"Oh, BTW, don't eat from the poison tree, you'll die, I promise."

he commanded them not to eat from the tree he did tell them they would die.he did not say death would come from the fruit. the punishment was death however not instantaneous death.

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Why didn't that happen? Well, we wouldn't be here now, would we? See, it defeats the purpose, the purpose that god wanted all of everything that has happened to have happened. The good AND the bad. ALL of the vile badness. God wanted us to experience all the suffering that came of that fateful event.

god never gave up on his creation he wanted them to be redeemed and return to his fold so he didn't end humanity he instead opened the door to redemption you know what i mean. as far as the bad things that happen this is our fault not god's fault he gave us the ability to choose adam and eve chose wrong. every generation afterwards chose wrong as well(minor and major sins.) this is a sickness if you will.

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Although it doesn't say so in the bible, I WILL interpret a bit here.

don't you mean wild guess?

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So, god put the making of our downfall there. God allowed Satan an audience with us. God, who is "everywhere" was nowhere to be found, when we needed him to save us. God didn't post an angel as a sentry to keep us from eating from that tree. He didn't surround it with landmines, barbed wire, proximity sensors to warn him, nor did he use surveillance cameras. (Very low tech dude.)

god trusted man to obey him and stay away but man was too stupid to listen. when god returned it was painfully obvious what had happened so adam and eve was kicked out of the garden of eden and immortality removed from them.

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Second, and very important, it was "Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil"

sorry you emphasize the wrong thing it should be "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"

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They weren't "good" to be ones to obey god's wishes. They weren't "good" to fulfill any of god's aspirations of them.

god's actions can be summed up this way. "as long as you live under my roof you will do what i say." they didn't and got kicked out.

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NOW, we get to the "fear of god" in god.

the closest i found(and doen't support the statement) is now that man has eaten from the tree of knowlege he shall not be allowed to eat from the tree of life. you see the tree of life enabled adam and eve to live without the fear of dying. when they disobeyed god they were not allowed to eat from this tree any longer and was thrown out of eden.


btw if god was afraid/hated us wewould not be here to argue the point.

Last edited by jkirk on 25-May-2005 at 03:00 AM.

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@jkirk

Well, that's one version of it. I'm sure Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc. have a different version of events

The point is no one can prove if their religion is correct or not, so if you can't prove something to me, while I respect your beliefs, don't tell me things happened as if they are facts -- this is a general statement I'm making not directed at anyone in particular. I willing to take my chances with Hell, thank you very much.

@cell

sorry athiest misinterpreted the story of eden i was just correcting this.

Last edited by jkirk on 25-May-2005 at 03:23 AM.

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@cell

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cell wrote: @thread Just wondering where Billsey is through all this mess? Probably sitting back and laughing.

he probably saw the number of posts and decided it wasn't worth it.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

Hi jkirk,


I don't know how it is that you can't agree with me that they didn't know that it was "good" to obey god before they consumed from the tree of the knowlege of what IS good?

Also, the serpent SHOWED them that they wouldn't, in fact die, trick or not. They WERE naive, you know.


Quote:

jkirk wrote: @Atheist Quote: NOW, we get to the "fear of god" in god. the closest i found(and doen't support the statement) is now that man has eaten from the tree of knowlege he shall not be allowed to eat from the tree of life. you see the tree of life enabled adam and eve to live without the fear of dying. when they disobeyed god they were not allowed to eat from this tree any longer and was thrown out of eden. btw if god was afraid/hated us wewould not be here to argue the point.

That's it!

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god wrote: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

It's clear here that there WAS an antidote to the poison, and that god didn't want us to have it, and apparently he has a mental disorder, as he speaks to himself, and that they were cast into exile.

There are 3 things society (or the powers that are in control) does to those they fear and hate.

Imprison, excute, or throw into exile. (Throw in some defamation, ridicule, and humiliation, too.)

God did TWO of those things to us. He burdened us with certain death, and he exiled us from the Garden of Eden.

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jkirk wrote: @cell Quote: cell wrote: @thread Just wondering where Billsey is through all this mess? Probably sitting back and laughing. he probably saw the number of posts and decided it wasn't worth it.

Hi jkirk, cell,

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jkirk wrote: @Atheist Quote: Angels, I have no clue what their "job" was, but they had free reign of the entire UNIVERSE. They could go any and everywhere. They, without question, know almost everything that could be known. They probably only don't know how god itself came to be. I wonder if they know how they were spawned, and could they make matter, or energy, or more angels? angels are the messengers of god they are the middlemen of god after adam and eve were kicked out of eden. angels were also given the ability to choose and as a result lucifer turned against god in plotting the downfall of humanity.

Who in the early crowded Universe was god sending messages to???

We have cell phones, couldn't god just use mental telepathy to talk to any angel he needed to?

At everyone still listening,


I wonder if there's any high tech religion out there, where god sends armies of robots at us, and we make robots to fight him (well, evil people do), but his robots are always better than our robots, and our asses are kicked royally??

@jkirk

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jkirk wrote: @nicholas oh god help me i just checked my point total it read 666. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkk

To qoute Charlie Daniels:

The Devil went down to Georgia, he was lookin for a soul to steal...

@Atheist

Quote:

It's clear here that there WAS an antidote to the poison, and that god didn't want us to have it, and apparently he has a mental disorder, as he speaks to himself, and that they were cast into exile.

no antidote the tree of life was available to adam and eve until they disobeyed. after which this was taken away when they were removed from eden. god cursed them and took away their immortality. no poison was involved. as far as speaking to himself this is a reference to the trinity which is too complicated to go into right now.

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Also, the serpent SHOWED them that they wouldn't, in fact die, trick or not. They WERE naive, you know.

i admit they were naive but as most governments will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse. and a naive accomplice is just as guilty.

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God did TWO of those things to us. He burdened us with certain death, and he exiled us from the Garden of Eden.

god warned them don't do this or else. when they did it anyway it would be pointless to shorten their life only to have them walk to the tree of life and eat the fruit to regain that immortality. so really did he have a choice in the matter.

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@Atheist

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Atheist wrote: [quote]jkirk wrote: @Atheist Who in the early crowded Universe was god sending messages to??? We have cell phones, couldn't god just use mental telepathy to talk to any angel he needed to?

yes he can haven't you watched highway to heaven or touched by an angel? yes i know it is tv but it stays true to the role of what an angel is. one other thing i forgot to mention they are also the heralders of god. think ofit as your own personal choir in the sky praising your every move.

besides only the naive man can assume we are the only intellegent beings in the universe.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

Quote:

jkirk wrote: no antidote the tree of life was available to adam and eve until they disobeyed. after which this was taken away when they were removed from eden. god cursed them and took away their immortality. no poison was involved. as far as speaking to himself this is a reference to the trinity which is too complicated to go into right now.

Excuse me but wasn't the notion of God as a trinity a construct of the New Testament? Genesis is strictly Old Testament.

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i admit they were naive but as most governments will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse. and a naive accomplice is just as guilty. [.....] god warned them don't do this or else. when they did it anyway it would be pointless to shorten their life only to have them walk to the tree of life and eat the fruit to regain that immortality. so really did he have a choice in the matter.

What about an "accomplice" without free will and without choice? The notion of an all-knowing and all-powerful God giving us free will, and thereby creating the circumstance for actions that he can't foresee, puts a great big hole in the notion of "all-knowing" and without that quality He's suddenly out of the God business...

The whole business with being "all knowing" means that God knew absolutely everything about absolutely everything, right down from the merest quantum level events all the way to what you decided to have for breakfast this morning and beyond, from the moment He said "Let there be light" all that time ago. You may say that He chose to limit himself to not knowing what you were going to do until after you did it, but that would put a limit to action on something that is, by definition, supposed to be without limit.

So, leaving God as is (all knowing, all powerful and everywhere at once) just means that you're going to be judged (and found guilty of) on everything that you do based on knowledge available from before The Creation. The fact that God may forgive your sins is meaningless, he's running the show to a script that only He can know and part of that script means that a large swack of us are destined for for Hell from the moment of birth. The final score: Omniscience 1, Free Will 0. Thank you for playing...

If there is a God, we're playing His games, by rules only He knows and, by defintion, He cheats at it anyway... If we play against the rules we get punished, and even if we play by the rules God may still allow all manner of sh!t to deliberately befall us (See the Book of Job for a prime example) when it suits His purpose. How are we supposed to love this guy, he fits the profile of a classic sociopath, and we're the flies He likes to pull the wings off of!



Doug

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logicalheart wrote:
You know that pretty sound you play when the computer starts?
You need another one to play when the computer is actually ready to use.
Maybe add more for malfunctions and then we'll have music all day.

Hi jkirk,


Do you think god suffers?

For instance, he's in perfect health, always.

So, what can he do? He never asks questions, he knows everything.

He never tells angels anything, they almost know everything. (Okay, other than messengering.)

What's the point of having a conversation with angels?

He never talks to us. He doesn't want to give us anything.

He could solve every riddle, can beat any challenge.....


He can go anywhere and do anything, but he doesn't need anything.


There's nothing for him to read, he can only compose on his own behalf. So, in 78 billion years, all he's written is the bible, and nothing since then. Nor are there any new events attributable to him.


What's an all powerful supreme being do in his infinite spare moments, I wonder....


(We're just lucky that he can't actually go insane.......or CAN he???? )