@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: (SNIP for space) If you followed the link, you'd see the gpu on the SNES was quite capable and well above Amiga even in the sprite department. Even extra half-brite mode only gave you 64 colors or roughly Megadrive-quality graphics.

Refer to Amiga500's Links HAM6 mode golf game, but this game requires a hard disk.

Amiga version of Universe ECS has up to 256 colors on screen i.e. SPAC mode.

There wasn’t a strong development sharing in Amiga compared to PS3 i.e. notice Logluv share..

Last edited by Hammer on 02-Apr-2009 at 01:53 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 02-Apr-2009 at 01:49 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: Lou wrote: (SNIP for space) If you followed the link, you'd see the gpu on the SNES was quite capable and well above Amiga even in the sprite department. Even extra half-brite mode only gave you 64 colors or roughly Megadrive-quality graphics. Refer to Amiga500's Links HAM6 mode golf game, but this game requires a hard disk. Amiga version of Universe ECS has up to 256 colors on screen i.e. SPAC mode. There wasn’t a strong development sharing in Amiga compared to PS3 i.e. notice Logluv share..

LOL, I don't think you need 60fps for a golf game which is the only reason such a game was possible in that mode...same with LucasArts SCUMM-based games where animation is mainly kept to a localized portion of the screen.

@Thread

SNES vs Amiga, what sort of comparison is that? One had Mario Paint, a childish curio, the other had Deluxe Paint an industry altering pofessional app! Game wise Alienbreed 3D had co-op play and a superior 3D Engine to SNES Doom (shame about the 2x2 pixel graphics however )! Stuff Starfox we had Guardian! Stuff Mario we had The Great Giana Sisters and Superfrog! Also, the Amiga had the ability to add hard drives extra Ram, genlocks, 4 player adaptors, printers, etc.

Team17, the Bitmap Brothers, Sensible and Bulldog ran rings around most of the stuff Nintendo fans worship as 'classic'! Amiga was a proper computer with a game console heritage. Compare the Amiga with a PC, Mac, Atari ST even, but don't compare it to the SNES unless your talking about the CD32 (which by the way could also be turned into a fully functioning computer)!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Thread SNES vs Amiga, what sort of comparison is that? One had Mario Paint, a childish curio, the other had Deluxe Paint an industry altering pofessional app! Game wise Alienbreed 3D had co-op play and a superior 3D Engine to SNES Doom (shame about the 2x2 pixel graphics however )! Stuff Starfox we had Guardian! Stuff Mario we had The Great Giana Sisters and Superfrog! Also, the Amiga had the ability to add hard drives extra Ram, genlocks, 4 player adaptors, printers, etc. Team17, the Bitmap Brothers, Sensible and Bulldog ran rings around most of the stuff Nintendo fans worship as 'classic'! Amiga was a proper computer with a game console heritage. Compare the Amiga with a PC, Mac, Atari ST even, but don't compare it to the SNES unless your talking about the CD32 (which by the way could also be turned into a fully functioning computer)!

It was actually a point about how a strong gpu makes up for a weaker cpu and how it related to the 360 and PS3 today like that...

@Lou

Okay, but consoles do not have the luxury of upgrades like the Amiga did! Q. AGA not up to spec? Ans: Get a graphics card. Q. 020 wheezing along? Ans: Get an accelerator! The A1200 should have had 030 with chunky graphics support, which could of handled Doom and the Amiga would have had a resurgence.

Was AAA ever going to have chunky pixel support?

Last edited by BigD on 03-Apr-2009 at 09:22 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Motorola would still pull the rug under CBM. CBM was looking at alternative CPU ISAs.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Lou

Quote:

LOL, I don't think you need 60fps for a golf game which is the only reason such a game was possible in that mode...same with LucasArts SCUMM-based games where animation is mainly kept to a localized portion of the screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ic3Fy-tVY&feature=channel
Amiga's Shadow of the Beast has ~60 to 120 colors.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Lou

Quote:

One game does not a platform make...

Atleast the copper(co-processor) was included with every classic Amiga.

Quote:

Monkey Kong Country would not be possible on the A500 in all its beauty. So there is my counter point the pretty graphics argument.

Pre-rendered CGI graphics+ Brian the Lion's effects would do it.

Quote:

It was just superior in many was unquestionably despite the weaker cpu much like what we have with the 360 & PS3 debates...

These days, it should be system platform vs system platform. Both CPUs and modern GPUs are programmable devices. I don't disagree with you that a GPU could cover some of CPU's shortcomings. On PS3’s case, SPEs covers RSX’s design issues.

Last edited by Hammer on 03-Apr-2009 at 12:23 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

One day people will understand that today the innovation conflict has shifted from the more powerful GPU to the more intuitive and versatile input method.

Let PS3 battle X360 the HW specs battle while the Wii brings true innovation.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Quote:

Let PS3 battle X360 the HW specs battle while the Wii brings true innovation.

It's a badly implimented gimmick! Where's a decent light sabre game! Why is Mario Tennis a awfully implemented version of Wii Sports?

The Wii cannot provide Streetfighter IV/Red Alert 3 visuals or next gen experiences. The machine is an Eyetoy on acid but the Eye Toy was a fad and so is this! I don't care how many consoles are sold, casual gamers don't buy many games and an over focus on the Wii (if it ever happened) would make the gaming industry into a gimmick ridden/casual gamer focused joke of its former self. You can't even RENT Wii titles for goodness sake because of licensing issues!! Nintendo don't care about Europe and now don't care about their core fans = misery for anyone other than casual gamers!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @ErikBauer Quote: Let PS3 battle X360 the HW specs battle while the Wii brings true innovation. It's a badly implimented gimmick! Where's a decent light sabre game! Why is Mario Tennis a awfully implemented version of Wii Sports? The Wii cannot provide Streetfighter IV/Red Alert 3 visuals or next gen experiences. The machine is an Eyetoy on acid but the Eye Toy was a fad and so is this! I don't care how many consoles are sold, casual gamers don't buy many games and an over focus on the Wii (if it ever happened) would make the gaming industry into a gimmick ridden/casual gamer focused joke of its former self. You can't even RENT Wii titles for goodness sake because of licensing issues!! Nintendo don't care about Europe and now don't care about their core fans = misery for anyone other than casual gamers!

Now we are back on track!

Decent lightsabre game? For now Force Unleashed is more than decent.
When WiiMotionPlus will come out we will see something better.

I know Wii cannot provide these visuals, that is clear right now. But please define "Next Gen Experience".
Should it be translated into "Better GFX and Sound than your console/PC/whatever" forever?
I surely hope not.
To me Next Gen is something innovative as Amiga was at it's times. Amiga was Next gen.
Nvidia was Nextgen when brought to the gaming world the first proper 3D GPU by creating the GeForce.
Play3 and X360 are just the same thing but more powerful and with some eyecandy function more.
3D Glasses would have been nextgen and they will hopefully be in the very next years.
But for now, the only contender that brought true innovations is Ninthendo with it's new controllers.

I'm ok with you: 90% of Wii games are totally crap. Most of the owners buy 1-2 party games and then let the console accumulate dust. Nintendo itself took several discutible decisions (Your license issues, promoting and investing in such a crap like WiiMusic...)
but they brought the true NextGen to us, that's clear.
You see, from now on I'll never be able to play an FPS on my PC without wishing a Wii like input mode.
And what about survival horrors? Lot of potentiality also there! Having to mimic gestures with both hands gets you more involved in the situation than pressing buttons on a joypad.
Let's not even talk about Golf, Tennis and Boxing games, even more potentiality here.
With this I'm not telling that the controls are perfectly implemented in games: programmers yet have to learn how to properly use them and the first array of games clearly reflects this fact, but the road is open nonetheless, future will hopefully bring us better controllers and more accustomized programmers.

So, is the Wii the true Nextgen? Yes
Is the Wii showing us all it's potential? Nope.

Last edited by ErikBauer on 03-Apr-2009 at 01:04 PM.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote: @BigD Quote: The Wii cannot provide Streetfighter IV/Red Alert 3 visuals or next gen experiences. The machine is an Eyetoy on acid but the Eye Toy was a fad and so is this! I don't care how many consoles are sold, casual gamers don't buy many games and an over focus on the Wii (if it ever happened) would make the gaming industry into a gimmick ridden/casual gamer focused joke of its former self. You can't even RENT Wii titles for goodness sake because of licensing issues!! Nintendo don't care about Europe and now don't care about their core fans = misery for anyone other than casual gamers! Now we are back on track! Decent lightsabre game? For now Force Unleashed is more than decent. When WiiMotionPlus will come out we will see something better. I know Wii cannot provide these visuals, that is clear right now. But please define "Next Gen Experience". Should it be translated into "Better GFX and Sound than your console/PC/whatever" forever? I surely hope not. To me Next Gen is something innovative as Amiga was at it's times. Amiga was Next gen. Nvidia was Nextgen when brought to the gaming world the first proper 3D GPU by creating the GeForce. Play3 and X360 are just the same thing but more powerful and with some eyecandy function more. 3D Glasses would have been nextgen and they will hopefully be in the very next years. But for now, the only contender that brought true innovations is Ninthendo with it's new controllers. I'm ok with you: 90% of Wii games are totally crap. Most of the owners buy 1-2 party games and then let the console accumulate dust. Nintendo itself took several discutible decisions (Your license issues, promoting and investing in such a crap like WiiMusic...) but they brought the true NextGen to us, that's clear. You see, from now on I'll never be able to play an FPS on my PC without wishing a Wii like input mode. And what about survival horrors? Lot of potentiality also there! Having to mimic gestures with both hands gets you more involved in the situation than pressing buttons on a joypad. Let's not even talk about Golf, Tennis and Boxing games, even more potentiality here. With this I'm not telling that the controls are perfectly implemented in games: programmers yet have to learn how to properly use them and the first array of games clearly reflects this fact, but the road is open nonetheless, future will hopefully bring us better controllers and more accustomized programmers. So, is the Wii the true Nextgen? Yes Is the Wii showing us all it's potential? Nope.

The latest build of Tiger Woods on the Wii uses WiiMotion Plus and does give that exact 1:1 experience.

@ BigD:
With WiiMotionPlus, you do get 1:1, however, how can any "sword" game be decent without a counter-force to stop your swings when you make contact? How are developers to handle that? Is the Wii expected to control the laws of physics now?
Please, jump off your high horse and get realistic. Since you will not own a Wii what does a decent light-saber game mean to you? Where is there a decent light-saber game on the 360/PS3? ...that's what I thought...

As for the EyeToy, that is the badly implemented gimmick. You will not get a game that utilized EyeToy in a fast-paced environment because all the calculations are done on the console. Perhaps next-gen (720/PS4) the consoles will have enough power to make their camera peripherals act WiiRemote-like enough to be used in all games and not silly "casual" games...
Touche.

Last edited by Lou on 03-Apr-2009 at 02:14 PM.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: LOL, I don't think you need 60fps for a golf game which is the only reason such a game was possible in that mode...same with LucasArts SCUMM-based games where animation is mainly kept to a localized portion of the screen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ic3Fy-tVY&feature=channel Amiga's Shadow of the Beast has ~60 to 120 colors.

LOL!

Sorry Hammer, a simple copper trick to cycle the fixed background color from blue all the way to purple is of limited use and effect. Sure, claim 120 colors, but for all practical purposes it was 63(or 31) at best + 1 copper field transition.

I do know enough about classic Amiga architecture to figure that out.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: One game does not a platform make... Atleast the copper(co-processor) was included with every classic Amiga. Quote: Monkey Kong Country would not be possible on the A500 in all its beauty. So there is my counter point the pretty graphics argument. Pre-rendered CGI graphics+ Brian the Lion's effects would do it. Quote: It was just superior in many was unquestionably despite the weaker cpu much like what we have with the 360 & PS3 debates... These days, it should be system platform vs system platform. Both CPUs and modern GPUs are programmable devices. I don't disagree with you that a GPU could cover some of CPU's shortcomings. On PS3’s case, SPEs covers RSX’s design issues.

Ok, now show me one game that does both. This is my point. Even the PS3 can high-light particular technical superiorities over the 360, but show me games that actually use it all. This is where the 360 shines over the PS3, this is where the SNES shines over the Amiga.

On paper, the orignal Xbox was superior to the Gamecube in every way, in actuallity, the Gamecube pushed more in-game real-world polygons.

Yes, we should look at the system as a whole, I agree. I'm amazed that you semi-defended the PS3 there. But infact, that is my point and that is why the PS3 is not superior to the 360 when looked at as a whole system. This is what MikeB needs to come to grips with, not me.

@Lou

It was a copper trick, of course. But no other gaming console ever had skyes as wonderfully colored as Amiga had.

Moreover, copper trick were also used for excellent water effects (Examples: Desposable Hero, The Killing Games Show and was it Z-Out or X-Out?)

HAM was also used in arcade games like Kang-Fu and Pioneer Plague. That were 4096 colors on screen. The fact they were ugly games did not help developing other games that used HAM.

At the end: SNES was more powerful reguarding Sprites and rotation related effects. Amiga was more powerful reguarding Screen and scrolling handling (beginning with Shadow of the Beast multi parallax effects became quite common in Amiga games).

Of course SNES had some GFX modes with more effective colours on screen, but Amiga could use copper tricks to give backgrounds nice colouring effects and wonderful water reflections.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote: @Lou It was a copper trick, of course. But no other gaming console ever had skyes as wonderfully colored as Amiga had. Moreover, copper trick were also used for excellent water effects (Examples: Desposable Hero, The Killing Games Show and was it Z-Out or X-Out?) HAM was also used in arcade games like Kang-Fu and Pioneer Plague. That were 4096 colors on screen. The fact they were ugly games did not help developing other games that used HAM. At the end: SNES was more powerful reguarding Sprites and rotation related effects. Amiga was more powerful reguarding Screen and scrolling handling (beginning with Shadow of the Beast multi parallax effects became quite common in Amiga games). Of course SNES had some GFX modes with more effective colours on screen, but Amiga could use copper tricks to give backgrounds nice colouring effects and wonderful water reflections.

Understood.
The problem with HAM games is that they will never do full-screen animation and at a decent framerate. The kind of game you can make will always be limited. Now I believe there are games that uses a copper list to have the top half of a screen be HAM and the bottom half be half-brite and such, but again, the limitations of what can be achieved exist.

Nowadays, even VESA-driver based apps/games can excede what was done on the Amiga because the architecture has improved (or sped up)...look at AROS on x86.

Last edited by Lou on 03-Apr-2009 at 03:17 PM.

@Lou

Of course GFX chips have evolved (even if the Copper is still Unique in it's aspect), in fact GFX chip evolution today is seen as a given, not a revolution anymore.

In fact on screen differences between same game's version on Amiga, Atari, SNES and Genesis were much more evident than today's comparisons from PS3-X360 versions of the same game.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote: @Lou Of course GFX chips have evolved (even if the Copper is still Unique in it's aspect), in fact GFX chip evolution today is seen as a given, not a revolution anymore. In fact on screen differences between same game's version on Amiga, Atari, SNES and Genesis were much more evident than today's comparisons from PS3-X360 versions of the same game.

Interestly, looking at the GC/Wii gpu core, it has fixed-function "shading" (aka the TEV unit), but essentially it's the evolution of copper lists down to the texture level. However, the fad is "programmable shader units"...

@Lou

Interesting indeed... but I do seriously miss screen level copperlists.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

FYI: A 640x400 "screen" is the same as a 640x400 texture pasted to a 640x400 polygon...which gets mapped to a 640x400 frame buffer.

How do you think OS4.1 enabled "screen dragging"?

Each screen is mapped to a texture and polygon, then you simply change the position of the polygons and render away...

This is why it's only possible if you have a card with supported 3D drivers...