Lately there has been a bit of talk, again, about OS4 on Pegasos motherboards. There is one thing that I don?t understand though; maybe there is nothing to understand. However, to me there is one thing that doesn?t make sense, why would Genesi even want a direct competitor OS on there system? I mean, I understand that they want their system to host a number of different OS's; I do see sense in this as it is bringing other OS users to their hardware and inturn can leverage MorphOS into the Sale. But wanting an OS, which is in direct competition and in their direct market, doesn?t make sense to me, might this just be another ploy to discredit Amiga Inc and the Amiga name? Are they trying to make Amiga Inc look bad by not being cooperative to the Amiga cause? Bare in mind that if it?s not Amiga then it's not really the Amiga market anymore is it?

Amiga competitors have only one goal and that?s to push out the other parties in the Amiga market and not to work with them, it doesn?t make any business sense. I would think the same of Amiga Inc themself, they need to survive the market they are in and not to share it because they are nice and want to go bust again. However the methods that I believe these parties have taken to claim that market is somewhat different. One party has the Amiga name and the other parties want to discredit that name, that's the only way I would think that anyone has a chance of taking the Amiga market.

Just as a final point, if MorphOS does what it says it does and support and runs Amiga application, and I believe it does so well, then why the need for AmigaOS 4.0?

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Just as a final point, if MorphOS does what it says it does and support and runs Amiga application, and I believe it does so well, then why the need for AmigaOS 4.0?

Well, because MorphOS is only going to be able to run Amiga 68K apps. Beyond that, any new stuff that is written for OS4 PPC is not going to work on MorphOS, therefore, it would be good to have OS4 on Pegasos/II hardware as well. This will allow those users to use various other OS'es other than Linux and AmigaOS all on one machine. It's a good idea, but just missing the One OS that most of us are waiting for, Amiga OS4.

But Genesi promotes MorphOS as the alternative to OS4. I understand that it only runs 68k apps but Genesi are offering it as a stepping stone for old Amiga users to a PPC based OS. So why then would they want to support an OS running on there hardware which does what they are trying to do with MorphOS.

I just seem to me that they knew it was a futile attempt, but however that it would cause controversy in the community.

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why would Genesi even want a direct competitor OS on there system?

For one thing, it would then be a huge advantage for the Pegasos, since you only would need to buy a Peggy to run both systems. Another thing is that they will probably get the right to call it an Amiga aswell.

_________________
If I started a site about cow dung, and someone wanted to discuss dog poo, I wouldn't give a ####.

@ REFLECT

I?m afraid I wouldn't agree fully with you there on the last point, just because it can run Amiga doesn?t mean you can call it Amiga. You can call it AmigaOS 4 compatible, but not an Amiga unless, like in the case of Eyetech, you get a license to call it an Amiga. I think that licensing OS4 to run on Pegasos is different to a license to call it an Amiga.

@RELFECT

I agree that it would be a huge advantage to Pegasos, however if and only if Genesi was selling just the Pegasos, but I see it as a conflict of interest to MorphOS. I believe Genesi has more chance on succeeding by selling Software not just Hardware.

@choochy

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Just as a final point, if MorphOS does what it says it does and support and runs Amiga application, and I believe it does so well, then why the need for AmigaOS 4.0?

I think only small portion of MorphOS users are willing to buy AmigaOS
4 for their machines. But the point is that users looking for OS4
could buy Pegasos and drop AmigaOne option.

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I would think the same of Amiga Inc themself, they need to survive the market they are in and not to share it because they are nice and want to go bust again.

No one is giving their market shares for free... that is for sure. But
probably there arent much of market shares to defend. Only small
portion of active Amiga users are upgrading to PPC
path. For healthy user base they both must attract new users (those
who never knew about Amiga) outside of this community.

But in my opinion MorphOS and AmigaOS4 are not really rivals.

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I believe Genesi has more chance on succeeding by selling Software not just Hardware.

But in fact they are not selling software like that... Genesi supports
heavily development of MorphOS but outside of this community there are
also other OSes existing... It just is not MorphOS machine only.

Meanwhile would you like to try MorphOS on AmigaOne? :)

I think Genesi is confident enough about MorphOS that they don't feel offering AOS4 on the Pegasos would cut into enthusiasm for MOS. Genesi is working on solutions involving MOS and Pegasos, and there are a lot of developers working on MOS applications and ports, so it's not like if AOS were available on Pegasos, interest in MOS would die out or anything. It's a win-win situation for Genesi. If there are unique AOS4 applications, then this would be a selling point for Pegasos if AOS is running on it. Genesi is primarily concerned with selling Pegasos hardware. Another OS is a selling point. Keep in mind that there aren't enough people "waiting for AOS4" to really make much of a difference in the Genesi bottom line, but it would be one more contributor. What PPC AOS applications would the Pegasos platform gain that won't have equivalents running under MOS? I haven't seen any killer apps, but am willing to be surprised. Genesi is also very confident about MorphOS and feels it will have a valid role no matter what other OSs are on Pegasos. IMHO.

No doubt Bill Buck enjoys any aspect of the situation that embarrasses Amiga, Inc. and this is one reason he's pushing the idea, so that it might appear Amiga is the bottleneck in the situation.

In practical terms, too, it looks like a no-lose situation for Genesi.

-- gary_c

Genesi are trying to build their own OS and user base using the Amiga user base, I don?t disagree with that because that is business, but why then do they need OS4, other then to us the situation to embarrass Amiga Inc. I see that its not Amiga Inc that should be getting all the negative spot light for this matter.

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gary_c wrote: I think Genesi is confident enough about MorphOS that they don't feel offering AOS4 on the Pegasos would cut into enthusiasm for MOS. -- gary_c

But if its not that important to them, why do they kick up such a fuss about it? Why are they trying to discredit/embarrass Amiga for not allowing them to offer it on Pegasos?

Quote:

gary_c wrote: Keep in mind that there aren't enough people "waiting for AOS4" to really make much of a difference in the Genesi bottom line, but it would be one more contributor. -- gary_c

The last I heard, there were more AmigaOne?s sold then Pegasos motherboards. Which leads me to believe that their might actually be more people "WAITING for AmigaOS 4" then there are people "USING MorphOS". I would also include the Pegasos users that want OS4 on Pegasos as part of that count.

Quote:

gary_c wrote: No doubt Bill Buck enjoys any aspect of the situation that embarrasses Amiga, Inc. and this is one reason he's pushing the idea, so that it might appear Amiga is the bottleneck in the situation. -- gary_c

But it seems that Genesi are the ones that wont buy the license! How is that supposed to embarrass Amiga Inc? Why is the "MOS Amiga" community having a go at Amiga Inc for not cooperating, if they want AmigaOS so bad then they should 1) buy Amiga instead or 2) have a go at MOS for not supporting Amiga and buying a License.

Guys

Just to remind you that you are now onto ground where you
are speculating about motivations. This generally ends
up in a slanging match or a flame war so either stick with
what we know, or proceed trying to be as responsible as
possible to keep it a discussion.

choochy said:
Quote:

I?m afraid I wouldn't agree fully with you there on the last point, just because it can run Amiga doesn?t mean you can call it Amiga. You can call it AmigaOS 4 compatible, but not an Amiga unless, like in the case of Eyetech, you get a license to call it an Amiga. I think that licensing OS4 to run on Pegasos is different to a license to call it an Amiga.

Well, if it's not licensed, then they don't have OS4. If it's a hack and "hey, it works!" well.. it won't be supported, they can't brag about it, they can't use it for marketing.. in effect, they don't have it. My original comment was assuming they had aqcuired a license.

_________________
If I started a site about cow dung, and someone wanted to discuss dog poo, I wouldn't give a ####.

The bottom line here is simple. Genesi are a company that makes it's profit through hardware.This is directly from BBRV.He has said this many many many times.
Having OS4 on the pegasos gives him direct market into a competitors market.
That being said he will not certifiy his machines as AmigaOnes which then would get OS4 without doubt.

However he has hinted that he has contributed to getting OS4 onto the pegasos board, however there has been no details on this. One can only speculate that he has made a deal with another retailer/supplier to supply them with thier boards that this 3rd party will then get certified as AmigaOnes.
That kind of situation is a bonus for him as then he gets to sell more boards with no effort on his part, and can direct those people that are after OS4 to a distributor that supplies this using his boards.

Of course the real prize for BBRV is amiga DE, it is this he wants, and he wants it for Morphos.With Amiga DE he can then "leverage" the userbase of many operating systems, which in turn will lead to more sales of hardware.
If he cant get Amiga DE for morphos, then I guess OS4 will do, but is not the ideal situation for him.

_________________

Amiga is AmigaOne and Amiga OS4 is Amiga
Sounds somewhat weird but what I mean is that, regardless of interpretations, discussions etc... the one thing that's associated with the Amiga is the name. You can claim Pegasos is the next step up from the classic Amiga and you can claim that MorphOS is the logical successor to OS 3.x but in a lot of people's minds the AmigaOne and AOS4 are the logical next step. Attaching the name "Amiga" to their project in any way they can (they are already trying with AmigaDE) might convince more people that their platform is the next Amiga or at least a possible next Amiga.

To make it absolutely clear : I do not claim either system is superior, more genuine etc... I'm just trying to explain why having AOS4 on the Peg might make sense in Genesi's view.

On a side note I think the whole blue-red war is more in the eyes of the followers than in the eyes of the companies involved, when money talks companies tend to put their differences aside and choose whatever option is good for business. If it's good for business to have AOS4 on the Peg, it will be.

@choochy:

I think it's quite simple really. If AmigaOS could run on the Pegasos, some Amiga loyalists might be tempted to buy that motherboard instead of an AmigaOne. Which also means that these loyalists would get a free copy of MOS, plus probably some MOS exclusive bundled games. This will bring MOS to users who would otherwise not use it, thus giving it a better chance of penetrating the Amiga market. Plus it would mean more Pegasos sales. The tradeoff is that some of todays Pegasos users (most of which are fiercely loyal to their new platform), might be tempted to purchase a copy of AmigaOS 4.

Kay

While Pegasos users do seem to be pretty loyal to the platform, that doesn't mean they want to resolutely avoid AmigaOS. Considering their roots, this makes sense. I think if AOS offers some distinct pluses, either in the OS itself or applications not available on MOS, Pegasos users would gladly buy AOS to run on their machines. This might be increasingly true as AmigaOS and MorphOS continue to be developed and evolve in different directions.

-- gary_c

@gary_c:

>While Pegasos users do seem to be pretty loyal to the platform, that doesn't mean they want to
> resolutely avoid AmigaOS.

Maybe not. Still, on each user's computer, one of the OS's will probably be used far more often than the other. I don't think most people want a situation where they have to reboot between using their most frequently accessed applications. And whenever software comes out for both OS's, people will have a certain preference. The end result is that is that on each user's machine, one of the OS's will win, and the other will lose. And given the relatively small size and strong loyalty of the current MOS userbase, Genesi is probably expecting to gain more users than it would loose.

Anyway, at the time being, all of this is sort of irrelevant, as there appear to be no sererious plans from Genesi's side to get OS4 running legally on the Pegasos. The last I heard from them on the issue was that they were relying on "one of you clever girls or boys" to get it running unlicensed.

Kay

Hey Choochy ,

It is all very simple and has been explained countless times. The fact that it is still being presented as something else gives our legal department great cause for concern.

AmigaOS (and AmigaDE) are commercial products. As a result we have to measure whether there is business opportunity in expending our limited resources to put them on new platforms. This means that when we are approached about such a possibility, we will only move to a formal evaluation when the company or organisation presents us with both full technical specifications and samples, and also with full business plans, including predicted sales and marketing plans.

Only then can we measure whether it is worth our effort. After all, no one is going to sign a contract where we have to support a platform that requires huge resources in exchange for poor sales, or where it is technically unfeasible (or even impossible). For example someone can't sign a contract for putting AmigaDE on a handheld and then demand that it means we also agree to put it onto any device they chose, whether it be an electric toothbrush or a custom vector core super computer.

A formal approach for an AmigaDE port would first of all require that the Tao-Group support the host, either in HW or SW deployment mode. It would then require that the device actually be available and selling in numbers that provide a business opportunity.

A formal approach for the AmigaOS would first of all require that the product be a PPC platform. It would then require that the device actually be available and selling in numbers that provide a business opportunity.

AmigaOS4.0 is not a shrinkwrapped product. It is sold with a motherboard only, and thus comes with a system. Any company wishing to sell AmigaOS4.0 has to thus provide both technical and business information that provides a decent profit for both sides otherwise there is no point. Only a madman would engage in business activity to make a loss.

For the AmigaOS4.0 product in general, we have only limited resources to apply to it. Once AmigaOS4.0 is finished, the majority of those resources will move forwards to the AmigaOS4.1 and/or AG2 platforms. This will leave a small group of resources with the responsibility of moving the AmigaOS4.0 out across different products. Given that these resources are limited, our decision on which platforms and products to support will be strictly on a money making basis.

As for the AmigaOne, AmigaOne is an exclusive trademark which belongs to Eyetech Ltd. They are the only ones who can manufacture and sell a product called the AmigaOne. They can sell these products on to dealers who can then sell AmigaOnes.

This is the final, definitive comment on AmigaDE and AmigaOS4.0 concerning third parties and OEMs having it ported to their hardware. If you read anything else, it is not true and you should report it to us and the parties are mis-representing Amiga Inc in public.

cheers

fleecy moss
cto
amiga inc

Fleecy, I'm not meaning to troll here (I think my posting record shows that I'm in the middle with "red" tendencies), but honestly, what can Amiga Inc do to defend itself against those who would do it harm? It's all well and good to say that you will use all legal means at your disposal, but justice is not cheap, and Amiga Inc is short on cash. I've seen a lot of trolls leering on other chat sites about how anyone can walk all over Amiga Inc without fear of reprisal, and I'm inclined to believe that they are right. There have been quite a few examples of people stealing from Amiga Inc (eg pallets full of hardware, unpaid OS licenses), where Amiga Inc threatened action, hinted at having evidence against the guilty parties, but nothing happened. "The Other Side" has Rich Woods doing a lot of diligent work, waiting for court documents to arrive, paying for copies out of his own pocket and putting (at least some of) them on his web site. It's obvious he has an axe to grind with Amiga Inc, so I suspect he's doing his best to show things from the angle that best suits him. I don't believe he's tampered with the documents (that's probably illegal) but that doesn't mean he's shown all the evidence either. What can you give us to counter these things? We need to see what Amiga Inc's side of the story is, the "flip side" to Rich's allegations. Where are Amiga Inc's guns? do they fire real bullets or blanks?

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It is all very simple and has been explained countless times. The fact that it is still being presented as something else gives our legal department great cause for concern.

It would seem your legal department has more cause for concern within the courtroom than out here in the forums. And let's hope your "legal department" has more tenacity in this matter than the company's recently-withdrawn representation in the courts of Washington State.

But regarding the point of the initial post in this thread, the question was why Genesi would want AmigaOS on the Pegasos, simply that. I don't think people want to get into a free-for-all about the larger context.

Presumably, at some point there might be negotiations to bring about AOS4 on Pegasos, but we can probably assume all the parties involved want to see how the present arrangement plays out before embarking on a course that would so drastically affect some of the players. This wait-and-see approach no doubt involves both the marketing and sales of products and the internal developments of the companies themselves. It could well be that a delay will significantly change the negotiating positions, or render them moot.

As for AmigaDE on Genesi products, this issue seems to be in legal contention and it's probably best to wait to hear what the eventual ruling is.

Quote:

This is the final, definitive comment on AmigaDE and AmigaOS4.0 concerning third parties and OEMs having it ported to their hardware.

The "final, definitive comment" at least regarding AmigaDE is actually going to come from the courts, I believe.

Quote:

If you read anything else, it is not true and you should report it to us and the parties are mis-representing Amiga Inc in public.

I would think this is the least of your worries.

-- gary_c

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"The Other Side" has Rich Woods doing a lot of diligent work,

Like you say, Rich Woods seems to have his own ax to grind regarding Amiga, Inc. Nobody is backing him; it's all his own time and money.
Quote:

What can you give us to counter these things?

The documents Rich gets are available to the public and anyone can request and receive them for a small fee. If you think he's giving a one-sided presentation, you can yourself (or organize a group to) get the documents and present them in full, if you think something's missing. The sad reality seems to be that it's awfully hard to find a "good side" (from AI's perspective) to this situation.

(Sorry for jumping in to respond to your questions to Fleecy; I'm interested to hear his answers, also.)

-- gary_c