Dose anyone knows when Yashuah was born?

@fatman2021

Year 0 counting with The Gregorian Calendar, afaik.

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@tomazkid

I think your wrong by a year. It must be year 1 as nobody starts counting from zero onwards when counting entities, but from 1 onwards. Age is represented in units of time *completed*.

Must have something to do with the fact that C-language was not yet spoken off in those days...

Amen,

OldFart

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@OldFart

Actually, there was no concept of zero being a number till about 1100AD or so...

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@Agafaster

That relates to the European way of thinking, based upon mathematics inherited from the Romans. Indeed they did not have something to represent a zero, as they did not see a neccessity to such a number. Our pictograms used to express digits, come from the Arabs who recognized zero as a legal number, as well as negative numbers way before the Romans imposed their character-bases numericals upon us.

< joke>
"Dad, dad! I've been tested sero-positive!"
"I knew you were a zero all along, but I fail to see the positiveness of it!"
</joke>

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 08-Dec-2004 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by OldFart on 08-Dec-2004 at 11:01 AM.
Last edited by OldFart on 08-Dec-2004 at 11:01 AM.

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@fatman2021

Going on your nickname the second imilenium ended in 2001 and not 2000.

Actual birth unknown so he was given the sun's rebirth of the 25th December (the height of the saturnailier and the rebirth of SOl Invictus -- invincible sun -- the halo of which he is so often portrayed wearing. Year 1 AD.

However many scholars believe he was actually born more towards 7 BC and sometimes as late as 3 AD.

My money is that he was born 7BC and his Brother James was born sometime in 1 AD and the date was settled because he became the leader of the church after JC departed. JC having never founded any church at all, but rather appointed church founder[s]. The year of our Lord being in this reading the year of the birth of James Archbishop of the church annointed by the Christ (following the logic of annoinment of David under Saul by a Prophet/Priest).

@Agfaster
Quote:

Actually, there was no concept of zero being a number till about 1100AD or so...

To show what a complete prat I am. No this is the date when zero appeared in Western European maths via Musilim Spain, via alexdrandia, via zorasterians of Persion and originating in nearby India.

The Jews of Judea had disporiic settlements in Persia whcih dealt with (for astronoimoical/ astronomical reasons) with the concept of zero/ The MAgie frfom the eastwere these people. The zero was not used out of ignorance, but for mathemtical preference in maintaing a cycle of continuance. A zero (or a nothing year would have broiken the cycle a dimisshing to an increasing number of years showed the turn around religiously bestowed on the year).

There are other arguments and one not so silly was that the birth was expected in year zero, but things got delayed another year (a stillbrith or female birth) the grand thousand year cycle had to be maintained so they simply pushed forward a year and began with one instead, tucking the zero away.

Most of these arguments are way above my head. I know that Greek and Roman philosophers had via Eygpt been introduced to the system, but both had a possitive counting system without the concept of a negative number, hence when all numbers were removed there was not a zero but a nothing.

I hope @fatman2021 was not expecting an easy answer.

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Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@GregS

you REALLY are a crap typist ! (do you not correct errors before posting ?!)

most of what you said seems to make sense, that I could be ar5ed to decode !

BTW - who is yashuah ? should I know this ?

just decoded your post (learn to type more slowly and re-read !), and figured that I do know who you mean. that date of 7BC-3AD is basically what I heard, given that we have to back date, and back-calculate given some vary shakey evidences, and HUUGE error bars, also taking into account changes in the measurement of time, and accuracies thereof. I think 2BC+/-5 yrs is pretty good considering !
(this does not attempt to reconcile things like the famous Nativity Star, which could be ANYTHING and is very difficult to justify as a decent referent.

Last edited by Agafaster on 08-Dec-2004 at 02:21 PM.

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@Agafaster
You're right I have been found-out. No I rarely check, but I also just relaisied that not only is the room dark, but my good expensive keyboard is on the other machine and this $25 keybaord does seem to add oddities to my already crap spelling and rotten typing.

I will take more care (or try to at least, until I forget again). Yashuah, Joshua = Jesus. I don't know why the Hebrew version was used rather than the rether snappier Greekified aramic, but unless I have it complety wrong that is the guy.

Quote:

just decoded your post (learn to type more slowly and re-read !), and figured that I do know who you mean. that date of 7BC-3AD is basically what I heard, given that we have to back date, and back-calculate given some vary shakey evidences, and HUUGE error bars, also taking into account changes in the measurement of time, and accuracies thereof. I think 2BC+/-5 yrs is pretty good considering !

I must admit I do not how calandar reforms effect the actual original date if at all. And as for the star, well I think it was expected but not the way the churches would have it. I think in Quaram they were breeding-up a priest king according to a astrological clock (but I am in a minority in this). I am also in a very small minority in believing the 1 AD is ac curate but for the wrong person (James rather than Jesus).

But who knows history gets so overplayed with theological concerns it is really hard to work out what the real history should be (most of the history in the New Testament is all screwed about in terms of times and places).

I would in general also go along with you on redating, as this is very muddy waters, I have guesses that are stronger or weaker, but the "traditional" fundementalist dating is just buckum.

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Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@GregS

Quote:

I will take more care (or try to at least, until I forget again). Yashuah, Joshua = Jesus. I don't know why the Hebrew version was used rather than the rether snappier Greekified aramic, but unless I have it complety wrong that is the guy.

Prably the same guy on a different cloud...

Quote:

in believing the 1 AD is ac curate but for the wrong person (James rather than Jesus)

Didn't someone call him Brian (or Bwian)?

Anyway, allways look on the bright sahide of life, dum, tadum, tadudidudidum, tadum...

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@fatman2021

Actually, he was born year 7 AD... and no I'm not joking



that is ofcourse an approximisation...

Last edited by sTix on 08-Dec-2004 at 05:00 PM.

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Yashua (or Yeshua, which as I understand it is the correct way to write it) is the Latin-character transliteration of the English "Jesus", from the Latin "Jesus" (pronounced with a y instead of the English soft-g), from the Greek "Iesous" (I think; where is BodieCI5 when you need him anyway?) Latin & Greek didn't have "SH" sounds.

A bunch of people get their panties in a bind, saying we ought to spell it the way Jesus' family & friends would have, instead of the way it was actually written in the Bible: the first NT writings being the letters of St. Paul to Greek-speakers, & the Gospels being originally Greek, except possibly Matthew. Greek was the universal language of the Roman empire at the time, Mel Gibson's fantasies notwithstanding.

GregS is correct that no one knows the date of Christ's birth. The day is fixed at Dec. 25th b/c the Roman Church was annoyed that Christians were participating in pagan winter solstice festivals, and figured that scheduling a celebration of Christ's birth on this day would keep the faithful out of trouble. (Or so I understand it. Certain Protestants spin the facts a different way.)

One note about counting dates: the date AD 1 should be seen as "in the year 1 of our Lord", and as I recall technically AD is supposed to be written that way: AD 1, AD 2, AD 2004 etc. Choosing this date was a change to the calendar which until then was (for example) 400 AUC, "Ab Urbe Conditio," from the founding of the city. Which city? Rome. By changing the calendar from the birth of Rome to the birth of Christ, the Church was signaling that a new era had begun.

This wasn't done until after the fall of the Roman empire though.

I'd check the details more carefully but I gotta run, sorry if there's a slip-up.

Edit:
- ab urbe condita not ab urbe conditio

- some websites that might be helpful:

WIkipedia entry: Anno Domini
Little Denis and the Christian Calendar (Canadian scholar)

Last edited by simplex on 08-Dec-2004 at 06:51 PM.

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@Thread

The year of Jesus birth is uncertain because the monk who started the dating system made an error of 1-6 years in his calculations and it wasn't caught before the system grew to wide use. Most scholars believe that Jesus was actually born in 4-6BC based on Biblical and extra-Biblical evidences. A lot of them think He was born in the spring, some think it was in the autumn, etc. Personally, I find it fascinating that the Festival of Lights and the Feast of Tabernacles (both established Jewish festivals before the birth of Christ) were about 9 months apart. I am of the opinion that the conception happened during or near the Festival of Lights, and that the birth took place during the Feast of Tabernacles. One could say that the Light of the World entered the world with the Festival of Lights and tabernacled among us with the Feast of Tabernacles. Of course, all of that is only my own opinion.

I have recently also heard astronomical arguments for Jesus' birth coming in 2-3 BC, but I haven't seen any confirmation of that view.

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@simplex

Quote:

Yashua (or Yeshua, which as I understand it is the correct way to write it) is the Latin-character transliteration of the English "Jesus", from the Latin "Jesus" (pronounced with a y instead of the English soft-g), from the Greek "Iesous" (I think; where is BodieCI5 when you need him anyway?) Latin & Greek didn't have "SH" sounds.

Much better than my bad guestimation. Thanks.

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Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@Billsey
The Festival theory of conception is a possiblity and it is good to have opinions on such things because that becomes meat for historical recognstruction. Of course I see virgin birth as not beleievable, but I do believe that such festivals had great meaning at the time in ways which seem foriegn to our more staid "celebrations".
So why not it remains a rela possiblity even without divine intervention (a lucky child was often "tried for" on auspicious dates, there is no reason that it sould not work often enough).

Of course divine intevention would also be attractive to use memorable and well known time markers.

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Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@fatman2021

Quote:

fatman2021 wrote: Dose anyone knows when Yashuah was born?

tuesday

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@cecilia

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@OldFart

Quote:

Didn't someone call him Brian (or Bwian)?

naaahh he was in the barn next door ...

"thwow him to the fwoor"

it all comes down to Monty Python in the end !

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Pope Julius I set the December 25 date on or about 336 ad in an effort to provide continuity from year to year and to counterbalance the various pre Christian festivals in competition with the spread of Catholicism. Although many of the Orthodox or Eastern Rite Christian churches have celebrated Christmas on December 25 since the middle of the fifth century, some chose to keep their festivities on the traditional date of January 6 or 7, known also as the Epiphany.

@all

-- CUT --
The Origin Of Christmas

Christmas is a holiday shared and celebrated by many religions.
It is a day that has an effect on the entire world.
To many people, it is a favorite time of the year involving gift giving, parties and feasting. Christmas is a holiday that unifies almost all of professing Christendom.
The spirit of Christmas causes people to decorate their homes and churches, cut down trees and bring them into their homes, decking them with silver and gold.
In the light of that tree, families make merry and give gifts one to another.
When the sun goes down on December 24th, and darkness covers the land, families and churches prepare for participation in customs such as burning the yule log, singing around the decorated tree, kissing under the mistletoe and holly, and attending a late night service or midnight mass.
What is the meaning of Christmas? Where did the customs and traditions originate?
You, as a Christian, would want to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth, discerning good from evil.
The truth is that all of the customs of Christmas pre-date the birth of Jesus Christ, and a study of this would reveal that
Christmas in our day is a collection of traditions and practices taken from many cultures and nations.
The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.
This was done long before the birth of Jesus.
It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died.
These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun.
Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing daylight.
This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession.
In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the resurrected sun god.
The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship.
Witches and other pagans regarded the red holly as a symbol of the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana.
The holly wood was used by witches to make wands.
The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to represent droplets of the semen of the sun god.
Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter them.
These customs transcended the borders of Rome and Germany to the far reaches of the known world.
The question now arises: How did all of these customs find their way into contemporary Christianity, ranging from Catholicism to Protestantism to fundamentalist churches?
The word "Christmas"itself reveals who married paganism to Christianity.
The word "Christmas" is a combination of the words "Christ" and "Mass.
The word "Mass" means death and was coined originally by the Roman Catholic Church, and belongs exclusively to the church of Rome.
The ritual of the Mass involves the death of Christ, and the distribution of the "Host", a word taken from the Latin word "hostiall" meaning victim!
In short, Christmas is strictly a Roman Catholic word.
A simple study of the tactics of the Romish Church reveals that in every case, the church absorbed the customs, traditions and general paganism of every tribe, culture and nation in their efforts to increase the number of people under their control.
In short, the Romish church told all of these pagan cultures, "Bring your gods, goddesses, rituals and rites, and we will assign Christian sounding titles and names to them.
When Martin Luther started the reformation on October 31st, 1517, and other reformers followed his lead, all of them took with them the paganism that was so firmly imbedded in Rome.
These reformers left Christmas intact.
In England, as the authorized Bible became available to the common people by the decree of King James the II in 1611, people began to discover the pagan roots of Christmas, which are clearly revealed in Scripture.
The Puritans in England, and later in Massachusetts Colony, outlawed this holiday as witchcraft.
Near the end of the nineteenth century, when other Bible versions began to appear, there was a revival of the celebration of Christmas.
We are now seeing ever-increasing celebrating of Christmas or Yule, its true name, as we draw closer to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ!
In both witchcraft circles and contemporary Christian churches, the same things are going on.
As the Bible clearly states in Jeremiah 10:2-4, "Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen; and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven. For the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cutteth a tree out of the forest. The work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. They fasten it with nails and with hammers that it move not."
So, what is wrong with Christmas?
1. To say that Jesus was born on December 25th is a lie! The true date is sometime in September according to the Scriptures.
2. Trees, wreaths, holly, mistletoe and the like are strictly forbidden as pagan and heathen! To say that these are Christian or that they can be made Christian is a lie!
3. The Lord never spoke of commemorating his birth but rather commanded us to remember the sacrifice of His suffering and death, which purchased our salvation.
Think about it! Can we worship and honor God by involving ourselves with customs and traditions, which God Himself forbade as idolatry? Can we convince God to somehow "Christianize" these customs and the whole pretense and lie of Christmas, so we can enjoy ourselves? Can we obey through disobedience?
So what is right about Christmas? 1. Nothing!
For more information and documentation contact:

Last Trumpet Ministries International
PO Box 806
Beaver Dam, WI 53916
http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html
-- CUT --

Another interesting read is "Worlds in Collision" by Immanuel Velikovsky.
His work explains why dates and dating systems are so messed up.

Tim

Hi T_Power,

Thank you for this insight.

Goes to show how mixed up and NOT understood it all is.

Seems to me that the birth, of Jesus, or god, and death of same figure is unknown, therefore, I guess anyone could/should celebrate both on any day of the calendar year that suits them (it could even be the SAME day!). I'd pick February 29th (notwithstanding that I don't celebrate it at all).

The whole bible it seems is vague. I read Luke, and heck, it repeats itself over and over in places, and contradicts itself too.

Apparently Jesus/god wants EVERY PERSON to get rid of everything they own, and wander aimlessly telling any/everybody they meet/encounter about how great god is, and that he'll be here "real soon now".

Look at society today, NONE of what we have, science, technology, medicine,...EVEN FOOD is possible under the "lifestyle model" Jesus made for us humans to follow.

He may have been the most destructive persona in recorded time, if his tenets were adhered to.

How nice that god thinks so fondly of us cretins (that he's so proud of having created).


merry christmas