I think, that if "they" want something other than X86 or ARM, "they" should look at RISC-V, that seems to be a market in development.

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@OldFart

If you read what I wrote I spoke about Haiku which you may know is a beOS reimplementation.

Last edited by kamelito on 16-Sep-2024 at 01:50 PM.

It would be perfectly possible to produce cheap PPC hardware, but for some reason, nobody wanted to do that.

This has been proven by many other hardware projects. Expensive Amiga hardware is a choice.

Amiga is a hobby, not a general-purpose computer. There is AROS, and all 100 users have the possibility to use outdated, unavailable generic x86 hardware. If Amiga were to use generic x86 hardware, there would be no point in it as a hobby.

@utri007

Why? You can have a subset of X64 HW that you support and that is it but porting to another architecture is not enough the original design is too limited.
For a hobby I use 68k Amiga. I was tempted many times to buy an NG computer, thanks god I didn’t. I have so much joy using 68k. If the A1222 was at 400$ the motherboard that may have changed my mind.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Thats one is the KEY to migrating to another CPU, if this works then the system structures can stay the same.

That would be. As it also relies on the bitfields being in the same place. The general solution would be to to update the API and hide all that. C++ would be good for hiding system structures and making public an API to access them from methods and fields. Aside from the overhead of C++.

@Hypex

Yeh.. c++ classes can be used, as it supports operators, most of the old C code can be compiled with C++, with some small changes.

It might be dangerous to introduce none atomic behavior, and I’m not sure about overhead of operators.

Yeh, padding is a issue as well, but it can be overridden in GCC.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Sep-2024 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Sep-2024 at 03:38 PM.

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@agami

Quote:

I think in this case AmigaOne is synonymous A-EON. Despite the fact that A-EON have stopped using the AmigaOne mark, many people still associate AmigaONe with A-EON and it's X series of AmigaOS 4 computers (X1000, X5000) and the A1222 stillborn attempt at an entry-level AmigaOS 4 computer.

I myself have an X1000 and also would think of it as an AmigaOne X1000. But the AmigaOne moniker existed before A-EON applied it to any boards with the Eyetech boards. In the case of the "X" boards it need not adopt the AmigaOne moniker and there are other boards like the Sam which don't use the AmigaOne label.

Quote:

As forces go in our Amiga niche, A-EON is considered one of them. I have on many occasions advocated that A-EON should've started the switch to AROS the second the friction increased with Hyperion. I know they hitched their wagon to AmigaOS 4 to legitimize their products in the eyes of Amiga OS lineage chauvinists, but that was more than a decade ago. And an OS means diddly if there are bugger-all apps to run on it.

In this case A-EON would be considered a force as they can bring hardware to the plate. In conjunction with AmigaKit they have also started work on an OS4 replacement called System 54. Or an installer and recovery volume maker. But, it also needs OS4 as a core component. My impression was they were building it from scratch, which looked like reinventing the wheel if AROS already had done that ahead of time. But, even just the DOS commands are a lot of work, and I found the newbie commands contained flaws and quirks like messing up return codes that put me off. Regardless, I doubted the work being worth it to avoid locked out source code issues, because I saw no evidence replacements would offer 64 bit, SMP or any modern expectations.

Quote:

Whether they choose ARM64 or x64, A-EONs best option is to ligitimize AROS. AmigaKit is already doing so with System v46 on AROS68k, with native ARM datatypes.

The A600GS (why not X600GS?) looks to be proof of concept for this. They would need to bring on the AROS developers as official AmigaOS developers. But there is an elephant on the room here; AROS is open source, while AmigaOS is still closed source. They would need to change the source model. Also, since original code would need to be replaced, AmigaOS4 would become a Ship of Theseus. Would this be acceptable? It would be AmigaOS compatible but not exactly AmigaOS as it once were.

@kamelito

For hobby I use powerpc Amiga.
Don't want to switch to pc.
without switch to unix aros on any x86
will always be shit compared to win.
for pc I have Windows (TM since year 2000)
want to switch to pc provide something as good as at least win7

amiga is hobby have to be something different than pc
so no x86 no arm no riscv

@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: I'm comfortable with AmigaOS4. Its roots are plainly evident in the original Amiga 1000 and it's like a cherished grandparent that has been around forever. One thing that bothers me about AROS is its "differentness". I know it has to be different because of copyright issues, but maybe they could be resolved when Amiga's future is at stake.

Internally, AROS is closer to OS3 than OS4 is. I'm sure OS4 still shares a lot of source code with OS3, but in terms of API compatibility, especially low-level APIs, AROS is more compatible. OS4 just "looks" more similar to the original.

So for me, the thing that bothers me most about OS4 is its "differentness"

Hypex Quote:

The A600GS (why not X600GS?) looks to be proof of concept for this. They would need to bring on the AROS developers as official AmigaOS developers. But there is an elephant on the room here; AROS is open source, while AmigaOS is still closed source. They would need to change the source model. Also, since original code would need to be replaced, AmigaOS4 would become a Ship of Theseus. Would this be acceptable? It would be AmigaOS compatible but not exactly AmigaOS as it once were.

With open source A600GS software, a cheaper and higher performance RPi 4 or RPi 5 could be used which may be good for the user but not for A600GS sales. Cheap ARM hardware lacks value for emulating 68k hardware but is available to everyone so it is down to the software to add value which is why it is protected by businesses trying to make a quick profit with minimal investment and risk. RGL does the same thing but they are more experienced at it and more of their value comes from licensed games.

ncafferkey Quote:

Internally, AROS is closer to OS3 than OS4 is. I'm sure OS4 still shares a lot of source code with OS3, but in terms of API compatibility, especially low-level APIs, AROS is more compatible. OS4 just "looks" more similar to the original. So for me, the thing that bothers me most about OS4 is its "differentness"

Nice. AROS 68k compatibility makes sense as 68k assembly is easy to read making reverse engineering a relatively easy job. AmigaOS 4 developers and Hyperion didn't care so much about 68k AmigaOS compatibility until recently. Now 68k AmigaOS 3 is becoming more like AmigaOS 4 as code is ported back to the original.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @agami Also, since original code would need to be replaced, AmigaOS4 would become a Ship of Theseus. Would this be acceptable? It would be AmigaOS compatible but not exactly AmigaOS as it once were.

In the face of imminent demise, all alternatives are acceptable.

The fact remains that A-EON are at the end of their current PPC hardware journey. From this point they can:

1) Focus only on PPC software for AmigaOS 4 and maybe port the same to MorphOS,
2) Move to some other architecture for the next chapter in hardware, for which continuing to work with Hyperion on a required port of AmigaOS 4 is a task close to impossible, meaning they would need another OS, or
3) Close up shop. They had a go, completed their mission with mixed results, and now they can make it someone else's turn to take it from here.

For option 2 what operating system alternatives are the most acceptable to Amigans?

MorphOS? They're porting to some other architecture. Some say it's still x64, though there has been some whispers about potentially switching over to ARM64. It would be helpful if the MorphOS team published a project update.
Would Trevor move to MorphOS? How much control would A-EON want to have over the OS update process. What licensing terms would be acceptable by both parties? etc.

AROS ABI v0? Quickest path to selling new hardware which can support older software and encourage development of new software. And it wouldn't be too hard to give it a nice glossy new A-EON theme, potentially via a System 54 port.

AROS ABI v1? Not backward compatible and needs more work than v0, but it helps set things up for the future. Port your software or perish. Everything else can try and run in an emulator.

AxRuntime? Here we're on the very edge of what Amigans would consider as "acceptable", but there's no denying that many problems can be swiftly overcome with this approach. Like the fabled wren. https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/1217/1185007-wren-st-stephens-day-ireland-folklore-traditions-bad-luck/

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@Yssing
Quote:

I think, that if "they" want something other than X86 or ARM, "they" should look at RISC-V, that seems to be a market in development.

I consider RISC-V to be a risky bet at this stage, but that ecosystem is developing rapidly. Right now I still think that ARM is a better bet, because it's poised to finally knock x86/x64 off its desktop throne.

RISC-V could catch up fast. Or, it could turn into a mess.

@Hypex

Quote:

That would be. As it also relies on the bitfields being in the same place. The general solution would be to to update the API and hide all that. C++ would be good for hiding system structures and making public an API to access them from methods and fields. Aside from the overhead of C++.

Using C++ for OS APIs is a bad idea. The API would depend on C++'s variant of Object Orientated Programming (OOP), which isn't friendly to other programming languages. To make matters worse, the C++ Application Binary Interface (ABI) isn't stable, and can vary not only between C++ compilers, but versions of the same compiler.

I personally think that sandboxing old apps is the only viable way forward.

@matthey
Quote:

AmigaOS 4 developers and Hyperion didn't care so much about 68k AmigaOS compatibility until recently.

Nonsense! If OS4 developers didn't care so much about 68K backward compatibility, then AmigaOS 4 would probably be much more advanced. Bending over backwards to keep old software & hardware running has come at a cost...

Hans

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @thinkchip some things don't wrote posts titled "Godbye PowerPC?"

Why not? It's The Reality. And not even from now: it's more than 10 years that it was that...
Quote:

accept that switch to PowerPC was announced by Amiga Technology 29 years ago in 1995

False.
Quote:

first PowerPC cards were deliverd 27 years ago in 1997

PowerUP cards were used for WarpOS, which was NOT the Amiga OS...
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some people may not want to switch from PowerPC simply because it passed so many years with PowerPC on Amiga may have nice memories connected with PowerPC from they youth

No, it's "simply" because it's DEAD.
Quote:

so leave PowerPC as it is

I fully agree: leave it in the graveyard.
Quote:

and if You want start working on new Amiga like solutions on pc

Who wants that?
Quote:

aros is win98 level os more than 25 years behind win with no worth of use software

I reveal you a secret: neither the AmigaOS nor any of its port or reimplementation is at the same level of Windows... 2.0, with its protected mode for 286 and, especially, 386 processors, and its resource handling.
Quote:

If You want people to use Amiga like solution on x86 You have to provide something decent at least on win7 level

See above: first you've to catch Windows 2.0. Then you can talk about something better.
Quote:

something that will be Amiga Os X which means Amiga gui and graphics on top of Unix

Unix was far away from the Amiga philosophy: you don't know of what you talk about. As usual.

The only thing which is in common is the character used for the line break: 0x0A...
Quote:

with some nice exclusive software for it

Like? A browser?
Quote:

So first take trolls like szulc, szonwejs, karlos, di mauro, wolftothemon, v8 etc force them to hard work on mui clone when it will be done made nice decent gui builder for mui when it will be done port amiga gui and graphics to unix when it will be done port decent webbrowser, mplayer, pdf reader when it will be done made some new nice exclusive office software for it ofcourse with support for docx xlsx when it will be done made some nice exclusive software for 2d and 3d graphics when it will be worth of use people will use Amiga like solution on x86

OK, now you started the PARROT MODE. As usual...

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote: @Yssing Quote: I think, that if "they" want something other than X86 or ARM, "they" should look at RISC-V, that seems to be a market in development. I consider RISC-V to be a risky bet at this stage, but that ecosystem is developing rapidly. Right now I still think that ARM is a better bet, because it's poised to finally knock x86/x64 off its desktop throne. RISC-V could catch up fast. Or, it could turn into a mess.

ARM is better because it's focused on performance: something which RISC-V will never catch on, since it's "too RISCy".

The only good thing about this architecture is that it's free from licenses. And that it has better code density in its 64 bit version, compared to ARM.

@cdimauro

as usually you start trolling instead of working
di mauro you should hard work on mui clone on aros
it is still not compatible with 30 years old amiga mui

@agami

Quote:

The fact remains that A-EON are at the end of their current PPC hardware journey. From this point they can: 1) Focus only on PPC software for AmigaOS 4 and maybe port the same to MorphOS, 2) Move to some other architecture for the next chapter in hardware, for which continuing to work with Hyperion on a required port of AmigaOS 4 is a task close to impossible, meaning they would need another OS, or 3) Close up shop. They had a go, completed their mission with mixed results, and now they can make it someone else's turn to take it from here.

On 1) - there is no more PPC CPUs to power those machines... Freescale CPUs are slowly becoming EOL.

On 2) Hermans mentioned several times their OS4 license only covers PPC - not that it would stop him, but at this time, I truly believe OS4 is done and it is dead as a project/platform.

There is a forth possibility, one that has been mentioned on the forums before, and that is A-EON's own OS as a replacement for OS4 - but for Trevor and the Faithfull, the big issue is they probably cannot anymore get Amiga branding for it - so why not just use Morphos.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 17-Sep-2024 at 07:52 AM.
Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 17-Sep-2024 at 07:51 AM.

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So unfortunately I largely agree and its such a shame, because I really enjoy AmigaOS4, its a dam fine effort to advance the Amiga platform to next gen systems. It just unfortunately trapped now on a CPU that is basically only really used in military and emended system and no longer really thought of as a desktop CPU.

i wish the legal mess was cleared up and we had a loads of money, devs ready to go, to port OS4 and it software over to ARM or RiskV or x86, to any platform really that is much more wildly available. Then just move forward from there.

But I think we all know thats unlikely, so I think Amigakit plan with its A600GS / Amibench platform is likely the best route to go.

I mean again, I think better emulation support for AmigaOS4 would help a little bit, I am interested in the QEMU / Virtual GPU support, I mean I saw this video of AmigaOS4 running on Pi5 and it showed pretty good performance for a low spec device.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vDfZ4DRzSE

I could also see a Pistorm PPC version could also maybe help. I mean a Pi4 can do roughly G4 500Mhz speeds, so you could try out classic OS4 at them speeds.

But I keep also thinking no matter what (unless a real billionaire comes along) we are still going to hit problem with supporting main stream apps/web programs like Discord, Spotify, Youtube, Google Docs, which is why I like and talk so much about Amikit XE Rabbit hole setup, too me it best of both worlds, you got a top end 68K+ platform of the absolute best Amiga could be on that platform and access to main stream apps and programs and have them run in a way, that nearly seems native.

Is it perfect Amiga future, no. But to me it likely the best we got at having a modern Amiga. It also would mean rather than the few devs we have left just making ports they could make more classic/original programs for the Amiga platform.

Last edited by amigang on 17-Sep-2024 at 10:14 AM.

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@ppcamiga1
It seems only PPC isn't a PC...

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@amigang

I don't know what the issue is here. Almost every PPC AmigaOS application, tool, system component (library, driver, datatype, filesystem, etc) is written in C. You still have some potential structural dependence on 32-bit pointers and big endian data layouts but as it stands this could be ported to ARM pretty much as-is. It's still RISC, it's still Big Endian, it's still 32-bit. All the things that even the most lunatic PowerPC devotee insists are necessary.

Then there's legacy 68K emulation. Well, we know how well ARM can manage that, so Petunia could be replaced with a new JIT.

The only missing piece of the puzzle is legacy PPC binaries for the small number of applications that were written in the WarpOS/PowerUp era. How many of those do people actually depend on that don't have native replacements these days?

The only other things it lacks are a sky high price tag, multi decade waiting lists for hardware and a ton of bugs that need working around when, or more usually if, the haedware appears.

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