@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @agami Quote: agami wrote: No, because that is a Pi 400 with no OS or software bundle. Since when was that a requirement? Also, why would you even want that? Don’t you already have everything you need in terms of OS and software?

Since always. Otherwise AmigaKit should just resell the Raspberry Pi 400 with some boing ball stickers and helpful links to websites explaining how to load the different Amiga-like experiences.

There's no point working to market a product if it's not going to be a product. It needs a point of differentiation form hardware like the Pi 400 and out-of-the-box experiences like the A500 Mini.

Furthermore, it's not just about what I would want to add to my collection. It's about the benefits to the Amiga market, niche as it is.
Also, I'm surprised you even have to ask: In a time when there's such interest around emu68, with a little bit of foresight the right 1.5GHz+ quad-core ARM hardware platform could serve as the "standalone" v68k box that would service those without an A1200 to expand.

Even if it's a tenth of the number of A500 Minis sold, it would create a greater user base than that of AmigaOS 4, and all that that entails.

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@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: If your an Amiga nut already with the hardware etc then likly this is not for you, but if you got family, friends (that you might want a low cost option to give as a gift) or people who just have a passing interest in Amiga / retro systems and the a500mini didn’t quite do it for them or was over priced, or missing features etc then I could see this being a solution.

All of my friends who could be remotely interested in these sort of things have already bought the (official) mini consoles or computers: they have infinitely nicer cases (even the P400 looks better), the Amiga mini even comes with a tank mouse, and, above all, they're plug&play and don't require you to signup to an obscure online service to download stuff.

_________________
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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Since always. Otherwise AmigaKit should just resell the Raspberry Pi 400 with some boing ball stickers and helpful links to websites explaining how to load the different Amiga-like experiences. There's no point working to market a product if it's not going to be a product. It needs a point of differentiation form hardware like the Pi 400 and out-of-the-box experiences like the A500 Mini. Furthermore, it's not just about what I would want to add to my collection. It's about the benefits to the Amiga market, niche as it is. Also, I'm surprised you even have to ask: In a time when there's such interest around emu68, with a little bit of foresight the right 1.5GHz+ quad-core ARM hardware platform could serve as the "standalone" v68k box that would service those without an A1200 to expand. Even if it's a tenth of the number of A500 Minis sold, it would create a greater user base than that of AmigaOS 4, and all that that entails.

Pi 400 doesn't look like the retro Amiga 600.

Last edited by Hammer on 03-Aug-2023 at 01:10 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 03-Aug-2023 at 01:10 PM.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @agami So I repeat - a Raspberry Pi 400 is *exactly* what you want. No, because that is a Pi 400 with no OS or software bundle. Sure, the innards of the Pi 400, but I want something that looks more Amigafied, with a nice boot menu to launch into Arcade mode (games library) or Desktop mode (OS 3.x), with a selection of games out of the box, a la A500 Mini. I can get a Pi 400 for $160 AUD. I’d happily pay 3x to get the device I’ve described above.

Pi 400's GPU is garbage. ARM's Mali-T860MP4 GPU is superior when compared to Pi 400's Broadcom VideoCore 6.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Nibunnoichi

Quote:

All of my friends who could be remotely interested in these sort of things have already bought the (official) mini consoles or computers: they have infinitely nicer cases (even the P400 looks better), the Amiga mini even comes with a tank mouse, and, above all, they're plug&play and don't require you to signup to an obscure online service to download stuff.

Well I said it was a prototype at the show, the case may change. Plus also we don’t know the setup yet, you might have a fully setup system and so may not have to sign up to the Amisphere to use the system. It likely you need to for updates / downloads, but I don’t see a huge issue in that.

A500mini is likly going to be better in eye candy, the nice tank mouse and cd32 controller nod are also nice extras. Plus like I said pi4 / 400 and the Amiga images made for that system are likly to be better too, so why buy this system?

Well too me its got to be cheaper than the pi400 / A500mini to have any success, the cheaper the better, if it’s the same price or higher then the software got to be really amazing for it to have any success. But if its a complete emulated Amiga setup at around £50 to £60 I could see it having a bit of a success, maybe not to you but for some the differences between £50 to £100 is lot and a bit more impulse buying, or stocking filler presents happen more at the lower price than the higher one in my opinion.

Last edited by amigang on 03-Aug-2023 at 08:12 PM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @agami Pi 400 doesn't look like the retro Amiga 600.

Yuh, that's what I said.

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All the way, with 68k

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: ... Well too me its got to be cheaper than the pi400 / A500mini to have any success, the cheaper the better, if it’s the same price or higher then the software got to be really amazing for it to have any success. But if its a complete emulated Amiga setup at around £50 to £60 I could see it having a bit of a success, maybe not to you but for some the differences between £50 to £100 is lot and a bit more impulse buying, or stocking filler presents happen more at the lower price than the higher one in my opinion.

Given the expected low quantity production run for our market, there's is nothing meaningful to be had at the £50 to £60 price point.

Present and former Amigans are not unique in this regard: Which gamer out there would say no to a games console that has twice the performance of a PS5 + 10 AAA games for $50 USD retail? Should someone be able to manufacture the necessary quantities, this console would break every known sales record, but there would be no profits, and likely very large losses.

Would our market be better served with another toy/stocking stuffer, or a device that actually solves problems the user base cares about?

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Well my gut feeling is this is powered by some off the shelf ARM board from China, (i could be wrong) But something like the Orange Pi Zero 3 has all the features and cost just £16 on Ali Express, ( https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005785836777.html?&_t=pvid:cd8a2c4d-701c-4f21-a2fc-349cb6ce7468&afTraceInfo=1005005785836777__pc__pcBridgePPC__xxxxxx__1691167163&spm=a2g0o.ppclist.product.mainProduct ) plus a retailer maybe able to get it even cheaper if a large order was put in, then it just the cost of adding, keyboard, mouse, cables and a case, cost maybe £5 each at most (Again on Ali Express I found keyboard & Mouse for £5), so you can easily put a system like this for £35, so double the price for profits/build costs/software, you could bring this to market for £70 or less.

Quote:

Would our market be better served with another toy/stocking stuffer, or a device that actually solves problems the user base cares about?

Well true I would love them to solve the OS4 issue and get it off PPC and on to much cheaper hardware, but i understand the amount of developers that would require, costs, and legal mess its all in, this is a project that likly wont cost them a lot of money to produce and might provide a source of income for Amiga kit to do other projects.

Plus it does solve a problem, at least with A500mini systems, it cant connect to the internet and was designed just to play games, not serious software, however this A600GS with OctaMED & PPaint it clear from the outset this system can at least offer offical support to serious software something that I feel was missing in the A500mini.

Again this is likly not for you, or me, or most people with tech know how on building a system like this. It for maybe the Retro shows Amiga Kit attend and want to sell a mini all in one Amiga system for less than £100 and has more features than the A500mini, it likly not going to set the Amiga world on fire and be a big as hit as the A500mini, due to them getting it into the big store and having money spent on eye candy. But if Amiga kit do the above, £1 for £1 this system will be better than the A500mini.

Last edited by amigang on 15-Aug-2023 at 05:18 PM.

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amigang Quote:

Well true I would love them to solve the OS4 issue and get it off PPC and on to much cheaper hardware, but i understand the amount of developers that would require, costs, and legal mess its all in, this is a project that likely wont cost them a lot of money to produce and might provide a source of income for Amiga kit to do other projects.

Who is going to take the risk of paying Hyperion to port AmigaOS 4 to another platform when they failed to deliver AmigaOS 4 to the business that payed to have it ported to PPC? Trevor with his story about how Hyperion stole money from his bank account last time?

More likely is that Trevor will find more PPC CPUs from some trash bin somewhere and just charge more money. At least Ben realized financial survival comes from the 68k market but Trevor needs tax deductions for his rare Amiga collection.

amigang Quote:

Plus it does solve a problem, at least with A500mini systems, it cant connect to the internet and was designed just to play games, not serious software, however this A600GS with OctaMED & PPaint it clear from the outset this system can at least offer official support to serious software something that I feel was missing in the A500mini.

Is it really "official"? Nobody asks questions. Is the checkmark licensed through Hyperion or Amiga Corporation? Is kickstart and Amiga Workbench included and are they licensed through Hyperion or Amiga Corporation? Is "AmigaKit" licensed from Amiga Corporation?

"AmigaKit" may now be in the same trademark category as "Amiga" for hardware. Maybe they can get away with only calling the hardware the "A600" and never using it with "AmigaKit A600" but "AmigaKit" and "A600" are already on the startup screen together. What would C= have done if the "Amiga World" magazine produced an "AmigaWorld A600" back in the day? Would the Amiga World magazine calling a computer the "A600" be adequate to avoid lawsuits?


amigang Quote:

Again this is likely not for you, or me, or most people with tech know how on building a system like this. It for maybe the Retro shows Amiga Kit attend and want to sell a mini all in one Amiga system for less than £100 and has more features than the A500mini, it likely not going to set the Amiga world and fire and be a big as hit as the A500mini, due to them getting it into the big store and having money spent on eye candy. But if Amiga kit do the above, £1 for £1 this system will be better than the A500mini.

The "A600" is not for customers who only want to play games, eye candy nostalgic impulse buyers, existing Amiga users who want to save money by reusing Amiga software they already own, customers who want more than the cheapest Amiga emulation, customers that expect a mouse to come with a computer with productivity software, customers that expect an "A600" to look like an A600 with a keyboard and perhaps potential customers who don't want to sign up for AmiSphere to get updates? AmigaKit produced a custom ARM board with Amiga style naming to keep the competition from copying the software installation and using cheaper hardware (Good Stuff SBC is a hardware dongle for their software)?

It looks like it's time for me to perform another disappearing act. Still nothing interesting to see here except perhaps more lawsuits.

Last edited by matthey on 05-Aug-2023 at 02:08 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 05-Aug-2023 at 01:59 AM.

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: @agami Well my gut feeling is this is powered by some off the shelf ARM board from China, (i could be wrong) But something like the Orange Pi Zero 3 has all the features and cost just £16 on Ali Express [link removed], plus a retailer maybe able to get it even cheaper if a large order was put in, then it just the cost of adding, keyboard, mouse, cables and a case, cost maybe £5 each at most, so you can easily put a system like this for £35, so double the price for profits/build costs/software, you could bring this to market for £70 or less...

That's not how it works.

If your target is to create a profitable venture based around a sub-£70 emulated retro-Amiga product, then you can't start with an Orange Pi Zero 3. The rule of thumb is BoM x3 for retail price, and that's based on 100k+ quantities. The smaller the run, the more the multiplier to keep it profitable.

Now, you might think that 5% profit is worth it, but that is within margin of error, so 5% is also 0%. Nobody is going to risk the upfront investment and their hard work for 0-5% profit.

Furthermore, I'd hate to think of the poor quality, bad user experience, complaints, and returns because I cheeped out with a £5 kb+mouse, so it's likely more like £10.

You underestimate the product development costs and especially the software costs; both in developing the firmware and configuring the base Linux system, and then all the licensing of other software.

So to sum up:
1. It is absolutely possible to bring to market a retro-Amiga product for £70 or less which goes beyond the functions of the A500 Mini, but it'd make very little profit, and there would be cuts in other areas such as retro-look, inclusion of CD32-like controller, etc.

2. To bring to market something of actual value to the Amiga user base, and make profits for its producers, would be based on a BoM that's closer to £50 and a multiplier of at least x4. Which is an item retailing for £200, and I am perfectly fine with that.

The A500 Mini was for the games nostalgia, so we don't need a Mark II, or Plus product.
A Maxi system would be for a smaller target market of retro-Amiga enthusiasts, so it would naturally sell fewer at a higher price.

Last edited by agami on 07-Aug-2023 at 04:09 AM.

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@agami

I think that’s problem, we have talk about PowerPC costs, you forget all other stuff that’s goings into a computer, a GFX card, a PSU, a metal box, cdrom drive (they should stop putting this in like apple did), components, pcb..

When you produce something new, you need to cover the cost of production. testing and the CE mark.

When you sell something old however, you try lower price, so someone will buy it. in used market there is lots of device available. In new market there is not.

However, sell is going to be harder and harder of AEON/AmigaKit, every time bring a product to market, people are getting older, you need get same people to upgrade every time, market is not growing.

I know there is few here that will buy anything no matter the cost, but from comment section, I’m pretty sure that’s not everyone.

In really low-end market, you’re basically competing with bunch of ARM devices, I think that can also happen in high end PowerPC market, M1/M2 chips are efficient at emulating not only 680x0 but also PowerPC chips. AmigaOS native support is for ARM, that’s the next logical choice. But I’m scared of Apple they killed Apple clone market in 90’s, so using their chips are risky. Picking other ARM CPU’s is perhaps a better option. Apple screwed the Amiga community tree times by abandoning 680x0 and the PowerPC, and killing of PA-Semi.

If looked at prices of new M2 based Apple laptop, they are not exactly cheap, and think we expect prices like that. funny to see in stores that most new laptops are chrome books, I think Microsoft is in trouble, and its not good for the IT sector, if this what kids to day use for schoolwork.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Aug-2023 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Aug-2023 at 10:19 AM.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: Since when was that a requirement? Also, why would you even want that? Don’t you already have everything you need in terms of OS and software? Since always. Otherwise AmigaKit should just resell the Raspberry Pi 400 with some boing ball stickers and helpful links to websites explaining how to load the different Amiga-like experiences.

Yes, they should. Would cost them a lot less hassle and expenses.

Quote:

There's no point working to market a product if it's not going to be a product. It needs a point of differentiation form hardware like the Pi 400 and out-of-the-box experiences like the A500 Mini.

Well, this thing they are showing as A600 GS, is a product noone has asked for, and I don’t see what kind of customers it’s supposed to attract. For me, it’s totally uninteresting.

Quote:

Furthermore, it's not just about what I would want to add to my collection. It's about the benefits to the Amiga market, niche as it is.

What is this “Amiga market”? What benefits did THEA500 bring to this so called Amiga market? Maybe you should care more about what you yourself would want to add to your collection rather than speculate about what the so called Amiga market wants.

Quote:

Also, I'm surprised you even have to ask: In a time when there's such interest around emu68, with a little bit of foresight the right 1.5GHz+ quad-core ARM hardware platform could serve as the "standalone" v68k box that would service those without an A1200 to expand.

That product exists already, that’s precisely what a Raspberry Pi is - just download the non-pistorm emu68
https://github.com/michalsc/Emu68/releases/download/nightly/Emu68-raspi-20230801-5b8493.zip

Next, you must convince OS developers that this hardware must be supported by OS3.

But why do you specify quad core for an operating system that can only use one core?

Quote:

Even if it's a tenth of the number of A500 Minis sold, it would create a greater user base than that of AmigaOS 4, and all that that entails.

It’s the same people over and over again in all of these so called “user bases” of yours - it’s just “us”.

Last edited by kolla on 11-Aug-2023 at 02:43 AM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @agami Quote: There's no point working to market a product if it's not going to be a product. It needs a point of differentiation form hardware like the Pi 400 and out-of-the-box experiences like the A500 Mini. Well, this thing they are showing as A600 GS, is a product noone has asked for, and I don’t see what kind of customers it’s supposed to attract. For me, it’s totally uninteresting.

I don't know much about the A600GS beyond the few thin bits of info. Based on the breadcrumbs, it looks to be a "me too" product to the TheA500 Mini, but maybe a tincy bit better.
If that ends up being the case, then it will not appeal to me.

Quote:

Quote: Furthermore, it's not just about what I would want to add to my collection. It's about the benefits to the Amiga market, niche as it is. What is this “Amiga market”? What benefits did THEA500 bring to this so called Amiga market?

The Amiga market that includes:
1) The diverse Amiga and Amiga-inspired hardware and software consumers and developers, i.e. the Enthusiasts. Upwards of 10,000 users which use these systems frequently (daily to weekly) and infrequently (few times a month/year), from daily driving to nostalgia, across productivity and games.

2) The less diverse use case of semi-active and dormant former Amiga users which predominantly rely on a version/packaging of UAE, who are more interested in games nostalgia than productivity, and have little to no interest in non-retro use cases. The addressable pool of users from this group who's interest in Amiga ranges from mild to high is estimated to be between 1.5M - 2M. E.g. My brother is in this category, and runs UAE on his Android phone and on a Raspberry Pi 3, and only uses it for games.

These 2 demographics exclude the 2M-3M former Amiga users that have zero to lukewarm interest in the present day Amiga scene.

Quote:

Maybe you should care more about what you yourself would want to add to your collection rather than speculate about what the so called Amiga market wants.

Maybe I'm just not that myopic and selfish.
To put it another way, I'd like to see a product that can be used right away, and has some future-proofing. That can immediately appeal to consumers, and in parallel work toward appealing to developers. Something with proverbial legs.

Quote:

Quote: Also, I'm surprised you even have to ask: In a time when there's such interest around emu68, with a little bit of foresight the right 1.5GHz+ quad-core ARM hardware platform could serve as the "standalone" v68k box that would service those without an A1200 to expand. That product exists already, that’s precisely what a Raspberry Pi is - just download the non-pistorm emu68 [link removed] Next, you must convince OS developers that this hardware must be supported by OS3. But why do you specify quad core for an operating system that can only use one core?

You're doing it again. You mean to say "that DIY project exists". No one has productised it. I can't buy a system based on a Raspberry Pi, that boots into Amiga OS 3.x or AROS 68k out of the box with all the emu68 stuff already set up, with a few nice free apps included to immediately showcase and leverage the emu68 soft CPU.

And yes, the immediate task would be to encourage new development for this new base spec system with 68k soft CPU operating at equivalent of Pentium III @ 733MHz + RTG.

Why quad-core? Most of these ARM-based SBCs are quad-core. Also, why not quad-core? Sure, one could spec a custom solution with at least two cores, because it would be beneficial to have another ARM core that is not performing JIT emulation and can be accessed directly from the OS with ARM executables, like the early days of PPC on Amiga OS 3.x and like Amithlon for x86.

Quote:

Quote: Even if it's a tenth of the number of A500 Minis sold, it would create a greater user base than that of AmigaOS 4, and all that that entails. It’s the same people over and over again in all of these so called “user bases” of yours - it’s just “us”.

You're being quite optimistic: Are you telling me that all ~10,000 of us enthusiasts purchased 100,000+ TheA500 Mini retro consoles? That's more than 10 each, and I only purchased 1, so someone else must've picked up the slack.

Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 08:01 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:59 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:58 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:51 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:51 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:50 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-Aug-2023 at 07:49 AM.

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This product is still in development with many features implemented already. We received encouraging feedback from the recent Kickstart Amiga show.

It will use the existing Amisphere server for updates. So far a few thousand Amiga users have an Amisphere account and it is a simple process to register if you do not have one. Additional features, functions and updates will be delivered to users over time through Live Update.

Members of this community know that the Amiga was great for applications and games. Many enjoy using the Amiga to be creative, whether that be for music or artwork. We are working hard to create a product that reflects this.

_________________
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Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

@amigakit

RGL/Koch Media beat you to it (or you jumped on the bandwagon after the horse had bolted). While THEA500 Mini is fairly locked down as a system out of the box, it has already been soft modded to match most of the features that you are planning. AMiNIMiga allows the creative use you mentioned as your USP! The imminent Pandory V3 soft-mod will add further features in the short term that WILL no doubt allow THEA500 Mini to rival your product. They have the orders of magnitude low manufacturing costs on their side and the ingenuity of the modding scene is already mobilised around their product!

RGL might not like how open it has become but it's too late now! They are not Sony and cannot pull a 'Ban of Yellow Dog Linux' on us the users/modders! But yet again we attempt to reinvent the wheel rather than rolling, supporting and promoting the obvious product already filling the niche! Shame on you for not striking a distribution deal with Koch Media/Plaion. Maybe you could have helped them bring THEA600 Maxi to market? We'll never know now!

Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 03:39 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 03:37 PM.

_________________
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Supporting and paying developers producing new software development for games and applications is a project goal. Not rehashing and reselling old Amiga games for a fast profit.

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@amigakit

As far as I can see many games ARE getting THEA500 Mini versions! You can contribute to the developers of The Renegades, Castlevania and Turrican 2 AGA right now for their efforts getting these NEW ports running on THEA500 Mini! I fail to see your point and I reiterate that you COULD have done a distribution deal with Koch Media/Plaion rather than reinventing the wheel if you'd wanted to!

I'll say one thing, I'll have an easier time getting my childhood friends who haven't touched a physical Amiga in 30 years following burying them in their lofts or karting them off to a jumble sale, to buy THEA500 Mini (still it's proving to be a work in progress) than I would trying to get them interested in the Amigakit A600GS! That is the reality, I'm not being mean but this ship has sailed and we either keep it afloat or we all start sinking IMHO!

_________________
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@amigakit

You can also donate towards coffee/give to donator tiers to unlock the chance to beta test new version of these great soft mods! This IS what you're describing and software development has already been boosted on your rival's product!

Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 06:15 PM.

_________________
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@BigD

We are happy to pay community and in house developers who are contributing to a hardware platform that will still be available in a few years time.

Once the THEA500 mini is sold out I suspect there will be no more production runs and the company behind it will have moved on to the next retro platform that they want to commercialise.

After the core system development, project goals are further enhancement of PPaint, Octamed etc for the A600GS. A bit more substantial and beneficial to our community than writing a games menu.

Last edited by amigakit on 15-Aug-2023 at 06:29 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 15-Aug-2023 at 06:28 PM.

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@amigakit

Yes, they wrote a games menu and they also contributed to an open source fork of Amiberry! They also designed a better implementation of the CD32 Gamepad than Commodore came up with. However, the best development worthy of our financial support was achieved by Ami-Jimmy who hacked the system to run Workbench with AMiNIMiga and 'dojoho' who built Pandory which runs a range of emulators and has the ability to play 2-player mouse games and 4-player adapter Amiga games something the RGL Carousel cannot do!

By disregarding RGL's and Koch Media/Plaion's efforts you throw the rest of the budding modding community out with it! THEA500 Mini will be supported as long as it keeps selling like with any product (e.g. the Prisma Megamix doesn't seem to be in stock right now) so let's help them sell a few extra 10,000s to build our community! They might even by your product further down the line if it provides a USP above and beyond what THEA500 Mini offers! However, the only one I can immediately see that you'll likely be shooting for is an online shop store. That would be cool but probably won't justify twice the current cost of THEA500 Mini for the point of entry!

Current Amazon price £89.85 x 2 = £179.70 RRP for A600GS

Is that ballpark?

Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 06:56 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2023 at 06:54 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios