...of Doom, chunky pixels, the substandard performance of the A1200.

Grind hits 50fps on a stock A1200 + Fast RAM

https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1709445&postcount=271

The really interesting part is it's not even optimised properly for AGA yet.

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@Karlos

Could we ask ppcamiga1 to start this thread? It's only because Grind/Dread deserves all the engagement it gets!

Now for something serious, playing this locked 50fps on a CRT should be quite something!

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@pixie

From what I gather, there are a range of AGA specific optimisation to be made that would free up the CPU further. The focus of the game, hower, is to work acceptably on A500 still.

Last edited by Karlos on 08-Oct-2024 at 11:12 AM.

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@Karlos

Nice, Sure I will try to play it.

but how well does it work in 1080p

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Oct-2024 at 06:16 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Perfectly well. Just depends on your TV/monitor's upscaling.

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@Karlos

Sweet colour scheme too. Very atmospheric.

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@Karlos

grind still look like a shit compared to original DOOM
no textures on ceilings and floors
too low resoultions of walls
here how DOOM should look on a1200 + fast ram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels
no chunky pixels mean substandard performance of AGA and no DOOM
that was 31 years ago aand nothing changes that
get it

@ppcamiga1

People look upon OG Doom through nostalgia glasses. Doom always looked like shit to me.

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@ppcamiga1

It's ok, it doesn't use AGA. It's OCS. The game is designed to run on an unexpanded A500. Which it does, at a speed better than most FPS did on A1200. Happy now?

Last edited by Karlos on 09-Oct-2024 at 08:30 AM.

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@agami

Doom looks fine. The depth cue was a bit janky though. AB3D2 did that a lot better on a 256 colour screen by making use of of dithering.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Karlos grind still look like a shit compared to original DOOM no textures on ceilings and floors too low resoultions of walls

That's what the SNES version of Doom looked like, and it needed a 'SuperFX 2' chip in the cartridge to do it. Yet Nintendo didn't go bankrupt (despite the SNES not even getting Doom until 1995).

Quote:

here how DOOM should look on a1200 + fast ram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk

A CD32 with FastRAM gets about 6 fps when using Akiko C2P. The main limitation here is the speed of 3D calculations and texture mapping. A 14MHz 68020 just isn't fast enough for Doom. As for a 7MHz 68000 - forget it. I have a 16MHz 80386SX with VGA and it only gets ~3fps in low detail mode.

Quote:

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels no chunky pixels mean substandard performance of AGA and no DOOM that was 31 years ago aand nothing changes that get it

Grind proves that the Amiga could have had jaw-dropping texture-mapped 3D games way back in 1985, if only someone had thought of it. Chunky pixels weren't needed. The limitation wasn't the hardware, but imagination and programming skills.

If you want to know why Commodore failed, consider that more games were released for the PC in crappy CGA and EGA, including many games ported from the Amiga. The Amiga never gained more than 10% of the desktop computer market even before VGA became popular, despite being way cheaper and having much better 2D gaming performance. The PC won by shear force of numbers. They were purchased for business use - where price didn't matter - then used to play games. Developers produced games for the PC not because it had better hardware, but simply because there were more of them (and owners were generally more affluent and more likely to buy games than pirate them!).

Texture-mapped 3D didn't become popular until mid 1992, by which time Commodore was already at death's door. Chunky pixels wouldn't have saved them. OTOH if they hadn't dropped the A500 in 1991 and if something like Grind had been released around then, they might have lasted a while longer. Imagine if Grind had come out before Wolfenstein 3D.

@bhabbot

It's worth noting that the first iterations of Doom ran like absolute shit even on the intended hardware. Romero also broke it completely with a level having some concentric stepped zones. The breakthrough moment that saved it from being shitcanned all together was Carmack going away and coming back with a different solution for visibility using a BSP tree. Almost every 3D game that followed for the next decade used the same approach.

All those thinking that Grind just isn't as good as Doom can literally swivel on it because they'll be shocked to discover that not only is the engine capable of the varying floor and ceiling heights (the v2 renderer is incomplete however), it actually uses the same BSP approach as Doom and even uses the same tooling as Doom for level creation etc. You can watch Altair/KK's video series on the development.

In summary, it's essentially a clean room reimplementation of the engine specifically designed for 68000/OCS.

Last edited by Karlos on 09-Oct-2024 at 10:54 AM.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: In summary, it's essentially a clean room reimplementation of the engine specifically designed for 68000/OCS.

A-friken-mazing.

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@agami

It does make me wonder what the same approach specifically for 020+Fast+AGA would be capable of. Though as soon as you start going down that rabbit hole you end up heaping features on that erode the raw speed.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @agami It does make me wonder what the same approach specifically for 020+Fast+AGA would be capable of. Though as soon as you start going down that rabbit hole you end up heaping features on that erode the raw speed.

This reminds me of a comment by David Heinemeier Hansson which I like to quote "The liberating freedom of constraint".

All too often when barriers are removed/reduced, as you point out, it scatters the singular focus. Still though, I agree it would be nice to see the outcome of the alternative.

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@Karlos

Looks good! Sure, far from the Doom engine complexity, but still quite an achievement.

@agami

Quote:

People look upon OG Doom through nostalgia glasses. Doom always looked like shit to me.

Colour palette of the first episode is nice, colours in other episodes are bland and I must admit I don't like how they look.

Of the Doom engine games, Heretic has simply the best colour palette choice: rich colours in all the episodes/levels.

@pavlor

Quote:

Sure, far from the Doom engine complexity, but still quite an achievement.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The game uses untextured floors and ceilings to gain speed but other than that, it's capable of pretty much anything the Doom engine can do. And some things, it just does *better*, e.g. using sprite animation for the weapon models. It uses the same BSP approach as Doom and even uses the same (or slightly modified) tooling for creating the levels.

There is a v2 version of the renderer that adds in support for different level floors allowing for stairs and so on, but it's incomplete (and buggy) and the team have focused their effort on making the actual game using the v1 renderer instead.

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@Karlos

Quote:

There is a v2 version of the renderer that adds in support for different level floors allowing for stairs and so on

This sounds interesting! (stairs were what I had in mind)

this is how real DOOM run on CD32 (which is a1200 just with akiko) with FAST RAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk

Amiga with 68020 14 MHz FAST RAM is good enough
to run original DOOM as good as on cheap pc in 1994 or even better.

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels.
they screw it in 1992. that was 32 years ago and nothing changes that.
even if they just add akiko to a1200 they will not bankrupt in 1994.

hs I even try to buy CD32 when I see this wonderfull DOOM port on CD32
but prices are too high