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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Could Eyetech provide CPU-modules for A1XE?
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PosterThread
terminator 
Re: How much will this cost?
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 22:29:26
#201 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Nov-2003
Posts: 322
From: Unknown

@The_Editor
Quote:

The_Editor wrote:
@terminator


CHEATS


You've got a lot to learn about how much it costs to do something. All those expensive auto-insertion machines don't work for free.

Do you think General Motors could afford to do business paying the prices you pay, like for example, tires? They'd pay a tenth of what you'd pay. To be fair, the ones they buy don't have the same mass as the ones you'd see in the tire store either, because the tread depth is less. Those cost savings came from somewhere...

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The_Editor 
Re: How much will this cost?
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 22:33:48
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7629
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

@terminator

well interestingly ... The very first set of tyres on a brand new car last ages..


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Rogue 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 23:00:18
#203 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
When I got my Pegasos G4 CPU-card I was first a little disturbed by the fan noise


Tell me about it I have a 1.4GHz 7447 module in my AmigaOne, but I cannot use the full potential since the cooler is too small, and it already makes enough noise to drive me nuts. I have downclocked it to 1133 Mhz.

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The_Editor 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 23:04:59
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7629
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

@Rogue

can we have that option please ?

pretty please with sugar, a cherry & hundreds & thousands on top ?


Is there no way of afixing a Zalman flower on that ?

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Interesting 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 23:16:22
#205 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@terminator

Quote:
So far we have a processor, a socket for it, and we've spent $500+...



Scary ! You don't even have the real starting point, the docs.

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Interesting 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 1-Mar-2005 23:20:32
#206 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Rogue

Quote:
Tell me about it I have a 1.4GHz 7447 module in my AmigaOne, but I cannot use the full potential since the cooler is too small, and it already makes enough noise to drive me nuts. I have downclocked it to 1133 Mhz


awww, poor Rogue,

send that over here to Vegas ! We know how to handle heat here.

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wegster 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 0:46:54
#207 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Helgis

I'd make sure that someone actually posted performance improvements with the SATA disks prior to buying one. The inital batch of SATA disks even on 'mainstream' systems were basically the same performance of their ATA counterparts. In that case, it was hardware- they were counting on people going after the 'theoretical performance.' Now, there are some SATA disks that are pretty nice- Western Digital Raptors etc....but they still depend on efficient drivers working in native, not 'compatibility mode' to see any advantages.

As it is, I plan on doing some disk and IDE benchmarking once my system is set up happily and I'm more comfortable with the setup...but I haven't seen any documented numbers even for the onboard Via IDE vs the SiL IDE card...until I do, I wouldn't be too worried about 'needing' a SATA controller. It's nice to have available, certainly, but I'd make sure there's a NEED (which for you I don't think there is, you just seem to _think_ you need these things IMHO), as well as a real benefit before replacing perfectly good hardware...


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Rogue 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 0:51:25
#208 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@The_Editor

Quote:
pretty please with sugar, a cherry & hundreds & thousands on top ?


You're asking the wrong person, really. I got this because I was supposed to add 7447 support to U-Boot and OS 4. I don't make these modules.

Quote:
Is there no way of afixing a Zalman flower on that ?


Well, yeah, probably. Just didn't get around to it, and honestly, I am a bit wary of overheating the thing...

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wegster 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 0:52:11
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@olegil

Quote:
you need a MegArray (I should ask Arrow for price on that, would be interesting to know. I use other FCI parts and "we are not amused" immediately springs to mind) and a CPU. ACK already commented that he is unable to get that under 250$,


Sorry, that was a bit unclear. Do you mean $250 for the socket or the CPU? Sounds from your "we are not amused" comment that you mean the socket, that's a fair bit of cash for a socket!

So, going from your calculation, $10 for the PCB, zip for other components and $250 for the socket. Given that the 1.3GHz CPU card is rumoured to cost about $660 (based off 500 Euro), do 1.3GHz G4s really cost about $400?


As olegil and others pointed out....you're forgetting assembly/labor + whatever packaging, shipping between companies if required etc. Granted, I think there are ways to get the CPUs and MegArray connectors cheaper, either by finding someone already purchasing the same items and combining orders, increasing quantity, or whatever...but a profit still needs to be made. If it cost $400 in parts alone (theoretical 'play' number), figure $100 assembly and misc, and then profit...it would become a $750 or higher retail priced product.

NOTE- those numbers I pulled from this thread, just to show what realistic markups and 'other fees' come to- it's more than the sum of the parts cost.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 2:29:45
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@wegster

You're right, I did forget to include labour and markup.

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Samwel 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 2:45:18
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3396
From: Sweden

@Helgis

Why would you need SATA on Amiga at this time? What software does push
the filesystem & OS that much? Does it actually make use of that
additional speed? Are there any difference in speed between Sil0680
& Sil3112/4 on Amiga? If there are, will you notice them?

Listen more to Wegster than your own fantasies!

Yes SATA is nice to have but you don't *NEED* it.

Btw I ask this once more, why do you not answer what people ask or tell you?
You always answer back with "A1G4XE & SATA3114" like a stuck record.

There's NO INFO AVAILABLE anywhere that says XE boards will be available
anytime soon or ever for that matter. You'll probably be waiting FOREVER..
Or until XC comes, probably atleast a year away.

Also you write like people have told you to overclock.. As I recall they
*ALL* told you to stay away from it.
Overclocking is never safe but knowing what you're doing is a good start
I would say. With the right cooling, right VCORE and small increments when
testing is not that unsafe. A whole bunch of people here on AW.net have made
it work.


/Harry

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Avatar by HNL_DK!

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terminator 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 2:54:25
#212 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Nov-2003
Posts: 322
From: Unknown

@wegster
Quote:
As olegil and others pointed out....you're forgetting assembly/labor + whatever packaging, shipping between companies if required etc. Granted, I think there are ways to get the CPUs and MegArray connectors cheaper, either by finding someone already purchasing the same items and combining orders, increasing quantity, or whatever...but a profit still needs to be made. If it cost $400 in parts alone (theoretical 'play' number), figure $100 assembly and misc, and then profit...it would become a $750 or higher retail priced product.


No.

A $400 collection of parts would result in about a $1000 product. That's not retail either.

If you want to retail it for $750, you'll need to get all parts for less than $100.

The wholesale price is determined by multiplying the sum of the parts by a fixed rate. Don't worry about labour, profit, etc, the rate you apply incorporates all that.

The dealer has to make some money, because he has bills to pay too. What he'll see is an accessory that costs as much, if not more to sell, as the entire system. So he isn't going to be really interested. Especially computer dealers that make almost no money selling a system.

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wegster 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 3:51:13
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@terminator

Sorry, I didn't include 'manufacturer to dealer' in there. I disagree with your numbers a bit (I have manufactured something before, but not to 'dealers), but I think everyone should be on the same page here. I guess it would depend on the total including labor...I've seen labor cost more than the sum of the parts, which is painful but true...although I don't think that would be the case for CPUs at least

Normal non computer retail world, wholesale = ~50-70% of retail, manufacturer cost = ? (let's say 50% or less of wholesale for 'safety'....either way, it all adds up

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Coder 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 4:30:49
#214 ]
Team Member
Joined: 15-May-2003
Posts: 4523
From: The Netherlands

@Helgis

Quote:
Datakompaniet in Trondheim, Norway, is able to sell new A1G4XEs when an order is taken, as they told me in a mail.


I am not 100% sure but I don't think there are any A1G4XE's for sale. Nobody got them anymore. Unless this company got a few and never sold it. But I wonder where they would get it once you order it? I don't want to sound negative but I think you are in for a VERY long waiting period.

Coder

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JurassicC 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 12:33:17
#215 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 1435
From: Somerset, UK

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
When I got my Pegasos G4 CPU-card I was first a little disturbed by the fan noise


Tell me about it I have a 1.4GHz 7447 module in my AmigaOne, but I cannot use the full potential since the cooler is too small, and it already makes enough noise to drive me nuts. I have downclocked it to 1133 Mhz.


Perhaps one of these might help ? However i don't think it will be cost effective

Might be an option for Helgis when he's up and running again
Some thing about the price makes me think it would be cheaper to buy a fridge and house the computer in that.



Description from overclockers.co.uk

Quote:

Zalman TNN500AF Totally No Noise Computer Case (CA-002-ZA)
The TNN 500AF is the world's first absolutely noiseless computer case for high-end systems that has been developed with Heatpipe Technology, HSC (Heat Source Contact) Power Technology, a High Capacity Extrusion Technique, and FMS (Flexible Mounting Structure) Design Technology by ZALMAN Tech Co., Ltd. The TNN 500AF package includes a high performance aluminum computer case with an absolutely noiseless cooling solution that does not require the use of a fan, making it suitable for storage servers, workstations, high-end home systems, and sound studio computer systems.

- Permanent Life Cycle
- No Noise
- No Electro-magnetic Interference
- Low Maintenance Cost
- Various Options
- High efficiency Power-Saving PSU
- No Dust
- Stable System
- Recyclable Aluminum Case and Heatpipe

Price: 765.00 (898.88 Including VAT at 17.5%)


_________________
A1200T 603e 330Mhz - Mediator TX OS4.1 F.E.
CDTV 8MB Fast, OS3.1, SCSI, MicroSD SCSI & CD32 FMV
X5000, X1000, A1XE with OS4.1F.E.

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olegil 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 12:40:01
#216 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@CodeSmith

I meant for the CPU. I _honestly_ can't see how you could get that wrong since I say I need to check with Arrow for the price of the MegArray. I expect it to cost a fair amount, though.

So 10 for PCB, next to nothing for most of the rest, 250 for CPU and maybe 100 for connector. Parts cost is then 360 USD BEFORE assembly, test, and shipping. And THEN you need to add a bit to recoup development cost etc. Like I said, if you think you'll be able to do this under 500USD and have enough money left over to even salt your wounds, think again.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Anonymous 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 13:54:36
# ]

0
0

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Tell me about it I have a 1.4GHz 7447 module in my AmigaOne, but I cannot use the full potential since the cooler is too small, and it already makes enough noise to drive me nuts. I have downclocked it to 1133 Mhz.


A 7447? Cool!

If the fan noise disturbes by so much that you feel the need to downclock it almost 300MHz, then you should really buy another, QUIET fan, and let the CPU run at its fullest ability again!

 
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dimmck 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 13:57:32
#218 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2003
Posts: 415
From: Cheney, WA

@olegil


Quote:


@CodeSmith

I meant for the CPU. I _honestly_ can't see how you could get that wrong since I say I need to check with Arrow for the price of the MegArray. I expect it to cost a fair amount, though.

So 10 for PCB, next to nothing for most of the rest, 250 for CPU and maybe 100 for connector. Parts cost is then 360 USD BEFORE assembly, test, and shipping. And THEN you need to add a bit to recoup development cost etc. Like I said, if you think you'll be able to do this under 500USD and have enough money left over to even salt your wounds, think again.



I have no doubt you're correct about the pricing issues. However, eventually something will have to be done about replacment options. If not a cpu card replacement, at least another full size motherboard, hopefully with 4 or 5 useable PCI slots. I don't consider the micro A1 useful for my purposes. And, I'm almost certain it's only a matter of time before my CPU will fail.

Yesterday morning I came into my office to discover that the cpu fan was not running. The only reason I noticed is that Linux had come up with the log on screen, so I did some checking. I did a "cat /proc/cpuinfo" and it showed 83 C. I know it's not calibrated and not reliable, but the "normal" reading is ~ 20 C. (I have a fairly heavy duty PC fan and heat sink.) I have no idea how long it was in that state, but it certainly must have shortened the life of the CPU.

The fan was not the problem. A power connector to the fan had somehow loosened. I currently have no apparent problems, but a similar thing happened with the cpu fan on the 200 MHz 604e on my CSPPC card. Gradually over time I got more and more hangs and crashes, and eventually the ppc chip failed entirely. I used the card with the '060 as the only cpu for a long time, until I finally got a new CSPPC card.

In any case, I don't want to be without my A1, or at least a good replacement A1.
(I'm not even going to send my motherboard in for the VIA dma fix until this summer.)

At this time, neither option seems to be available.

Also, a higher speed cpu would be nice, although at least a motherboard with more than 2 pci slots is needed.

Dave M.

P.S. I no longer leave the power to the A1 on when I'm away from my office overnight.

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olegil 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 14:09:36
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@dimmck

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm saying the price example we're looking at isn't such a horrible estimate. If people only KNEW how much it costs to produce electronics... And "just manufacture in China" doesn't help if you're talking less than tens of thousands and you're willing to spend the first week of production looking over their shoulders. Because they ARE going to make mistakes if they only have an english document saying how to do things.

I have a few horrible examples which I'm afraid I can't really go into in detail

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Anonymous 
Re: Eyetech must provide CPU-modules for A1XE!
Posted on 2-Mar-2005 14:14:59
# ]

0
0

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:

Well, yeah, probably. Just didn't get around to it, and honestly, I am a bit wary of overheating the thing...


Are your fan really that bad?

I may of course be terribly wrong here, but I believe the maximum Junction Operating Temperature for the 7447 is 105C, above that it could probably become a little unstable. So you could almost say that you can boil water with it before it overheats!

 
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