@GregS

I understand the situation now, I think. Thank you!

@DruidPoet

Quote:

DruidPoet wrote: @takemehomegrandma Quote: Look pal, you can call me whatever you want, OK, you are a flaming idiot! Im just really tired of all this "he said, she said" that gets recyled time and time again. I singled you out as you were the one that quoted my comments. I'm trying not to take sides as I think the "truth" has long since been forgotton by both sides. Heck, why does there need to be sides anyway?

I couldn't agree more!


Quote:

I'm fairly neutral on this as I was away while the worst of the troll wars was going on. Here is my take on the situation; Buck stuck the claws into the fractured community and dragged both sides down. Why? Because he is the worst sort of buisness man.

This after saying that you are "fairly neutral on this"

My take is that if you would have been fairly neutral, you would indeed have said that BBRV added their share, but so did also:

Bill McEwen
Fleecy Moss
Ben Hermans
Alan Redhouse

... in exactly the same unfortunate ways. It takes two to tango!

Besides, these are four people, BBRV are only two, which mean they are the underdog, hitting from below!

Seriously, it's this one-sided blaming I object to. They are all tarred with the same brush. They have all been bad in the past, but they are all better now. You can't say "lets stop throwing #### at each other" and at the same time continue throwing ####, but only at one party. That is not very "neutral" and is bound to cause some replies, and then the carousel is spinning again!


Quote:

Rather than build up to succes, he drags his competition down to his level.

You can't possibly suggest that Alan Redhouse, Ben Hermans, Fleecy Moss and Bill McEwen has been more successful than BBRV in building up their business? You may think what you want about BBRV (especially if you keep it to yourself ), but I hope you realize that *never ever* has the Pegasos been as successful as it is today, and never ever has it had as many opportunities laid down in front of it! As a result, there are hints about them picking up some real MorphOS support again soon. They now seem to have a real business going. How is Fleecy doing?

And this talk about BBRV onesided "dragging his competition down to his level" is just pure BS really, and again not very "fairly neutral", right? Again, they have all been at the same level the whole time. They have all been in *the same mud*, *together*! That was a mistake they all did, but again, they are better now. And some even have a business going!


Quote:

If you want proof, pay attention to the failed companies he's had his hands in.

There is more of a crime IMHO to not try because of fear of failing, than it is to try and fail! There is no shame involved when an entrepreneur fails, as long as he tried the best he could! No-one could possibly ask for more!

Most entrepreneur *do* fail in their ventures. Often many times. A bad entrepreneur folds after the first try. A good entrepreneur goes stronger out of each failure, and try again!


Quote:

Now that he's shafted the MorphOS community, it's time the "blues" stopped trying to defend him and just accept that he is bad. Realise that much of what the "reds" have been saying is the more truthful side and come back on board with the rest of us (The community as a whole - rather than a "hole").

Now you are completely loosing me again!

No-one has done anything for the MorphOS community (or OS4 community either for that matter) that comes *even close* to what BBRV has achieved! No one comes close to BBRV's positive contributions to this community, not since the Commodore days! You choose to focus on negative things only, but the positive things outscores any negative things you could possibly come up with!

Perhaps you don't know the story behind why the money stopped flowing, but it was entirely because of external reasons that they couldn't possibly control. It *for sure* wasn't because of bad intent or to "shaft" anyone!

Now they seem to have a real business established, instead of their "VC" (not really) money they used to firtilize this whole community with before, and there are ambitions expressed to pick up the MorphOS support again.

I am sorry, but "shafting"(!!), my ass ...

@takemehomegrandma


Quote:

No one comes close to BBRV's positive contributions to this community, not since the Commodore days!

Regardless of what you've said above about all having a fair share, I'll venture to say this: No-one comes close to BBRV's negative contributions to this community since the Commodore days.

Not-so-subtle threats against several individuals, crossing swords with developers, childish behaviour, irresponsible public laundering of the company's dirty underwear, little understanding of the community (Atari?!), alleged money laundering where several people got caught inbetween.
That's not even counting the VisCorp days. He had no idea about what Amiga users wanted back then and I doubt he has it now. It's just fortunate that what he wants has the sideeffect of being good for MOS users.

I'm sure you want set-top boxes and cash registers as much as we want pocketpc software.

That's the last I'll say in this thread. If someone should want examples, feel free to PM.

Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Apr-2005 at 05:42 PM.

@takemehomegrandma
Ok...I'm not so sure I want to poke my head in here, as I generally believe many of your comments on AW are taken either out of context, or 'just assumed to be negative,' which I don't agree with...but:

Quote:

My take is that if you would have been fairly neutral, you would indeed have said that BBRV added their share, but so did also: Bill McEwen Fleecy Moss Ben Hermans Alan Redhouse ... in exactly the same unfortunate ways. It takes two to tango!

Quote:

Seriously, it's this one-sided blaming I object to. They are all tarred with the same brush. They have all been bad in the past, but they are all better now. You can't say "lets stop throwing #### at each other" and at the same time continue throwing ####, but only at one party. That is not very "neutral" and is bound to cause some replies, and then the carousel is spinning again!

Sure, you're right. Things have been said at various times by all parties that weren't the wisest moves by them. Speak (or post) in public long enough and it happens to everyone.

I DO, however, think there's a huge difference in the sheer number of 'bad' statements made. Everyone you've mentioned has gotten caught up in a heated argument, and responded out of anger...which isn't great for any business representative to do, no matter how difficult that may be.

However...BBRV (yes, IMO obviously) has gone beyond the point of civility on MANY occasions, in many posts, many forums/sites/ML, and almost universally, responded to any criticism with a personal attack or attempting to discredit anyone who says anything counter to his often far-fetched claims (I don't think they all need to be listed, but MOS on a MAC, somehow 'cornering the market' in Vegas with Peg boards, Solaris 10 on Peg...whatever, even leaving out the whole Thendic/bPlan/Genesis AInc personal vendetta crap...you get the point).

Bear in mind, if these were said as 'well, we're looking into these options, not sure where they'll wind up yet,' (an _honest_ statement), and then dealt with any criticism on a case by case basis, understanding not all of it was negative all of the time, instead of responding with personal attacks....there likely would have been much less criticism in the first place.

There certainly is a difference between stating something as, 'This is a possibility, but not a definite' calmly, versus his almost fanatical posts at times which come across as 'This WILL happen, and anyone that doesn't believe it I will verbally abuse,' which MANY of his posts come across as.

Likewise, there are ways to defend your opinion, plan, whatever...while keeping this 'defense' purely on the merits of the subject...yes, it's tough at times, but possible, and should be a goal of (especially) any small business owner, CEO, etc.

Both AInc and Genesi owe money to people; neither company's actions in this respect have been appropriate at all, yet BBRV, instead of acknowledging the money owed, seemed to 'change the rules' time and time again, this time to 'well, some people are paid, and you didn't work hard enough to get paid what we'd agreed to pay you.' That isn't how contracts or business works. Cash flow problems should be dealt with professionally...note that any company is unlikely to come right out and say 'we're broke,' nor would it be good business to, but IMO, again, BBRV went way past the line with the (many) people they owe money to, from MOS devs to the BSD port before that.

BB may be a decent salesman...actually, I believe he is. However, in general, he leaves me with the thoughts of a used car salesman rather than even a relatively honest businessman, saying whatever it takes, regardless of the damages caused, in his goals. That may be a good tactic in business (ie, take no prisoners), but it is NO attitude to be publicly aired on public forums, and to people who might have been potential customers, let alone former and/or current employees. BBRV (often)acts as if he believes himself to be child prodigy, seeing things no one else 'can,'...and unfortunately, the child part also carries over to his interactions with many people. True genius doesn't need recognition or public acknowledgement, nor does it generally seek it, let alone slander others.

Ok, I'm done with that....just bear in mind while you personally seem to think BBRV has done no wrong, or perhaps 'no more wrong' than the 'AInc/AOS4 group'...that's not how it appears to a great many people.

Quote:

You can't possibly suggest that Alan Redhouse, Ben Hermans, Fleecy Moss and Bill McEwen has been more successful than BBRV in building up their business? You may think what you want about BBRV (especially if you keep it to yourself ), but I hope you realize that *never ever* has the Pegasos been as successful as it is today, and never ever has it had as many opportunities laid down in front of it! As a result, there are hints about them picking up some real MorphOS support again soon.

Nope, BBRV has done a much better job of marketing the Pegs than Alan can hope to ever match IMO. Fleecy hasn't done a thing visible to the public in a long time, and AInc almost might as well not exist, as it pertains to A1s and AOS4.X. I've stated here, as well as in other threads, that Genesi/BBRV do a significantly better job in marketing than anyone I've seen in the A1/AOS camp, by a LONG shot, and likely could have done the same if instead of the Pegs, it was the A1 hardware. He does a good job in marketing; it's just the attitude and the general feeling of 'being slimed' after readings many of his public postings or responses that I object to.

I think it could be a good thing for MOS were Genesi to support MOS in some way again, although I have qualms there- when/if they run out of $ again, will the same thing happen? (owing what, 100k USD or more to devs alone?) Does BBRV ever learn (how to interact with and treat people, conduct _honest_ business), or simply try to change shape for a bit?

Overall, yes, BBRV has done good things for the Peg, and perhaps for MOS in initial funding and creating an initial userbase through that funding...but when most benefits are taken from the directly caused misery of others...I take issue with that, and hope that doesn't continue to be the case, regardless of BBRVs questionable past (since before Genesi).

Hopefully you'll see this as it's meant. Yes, I dislike BB/RV, for what they've done to people, and how they conduct themselves...and likely Genesi/MOS/Pegs would be in a much worse off position were it not for BB/RV, and I can, and do, acknowledge that...but I will never condone profits by misdeeds against others. (Yes, including AIncs, or anyone elses)

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Trezzer

Quote:

Regardless of what you've said above about all having a fair share, I'll venture to say this: No-one comes close to BBRV's negative contributions to this community since the Commodore days.

Sorry to add fuel to the fires. When I see a possible threat, I feel that that action is needed.

We are human, and are so easy to forget. To me, what happened with BBRV trying to hyjack Amiga OS4 with that court case was unforgivable. Buck's true face was shown. He wasn't interested in any "community", just his own pockets.

Back in my MooBunny days; got into it about MOS and AROS. How Aros was being used and I said something to the effect that the AROS work-product would become owned by BBRV without payment etc.

So now time has passed, Buck and company has used the Mos people and discarded them, without payment. Next, "AROS wanted by BBRV"

I'll say one more thing again. If Buck can find a way he, will try to gain the "Amiga" name etc. Its not over by any means. Those who believe he has moved on, are just fooling themselves.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

They were all pretty bad online.

My original reply didn't even deny anything like that. My original reply was on the topic of BBRV being good at PR, which I find rather hillarious. That is all I have ever said. All the other stuff about the Evil Hermans, Evil Fleecy and Evil Redhouse I never brought up.

Quote:

Constantly focusing on negative things are not good.

I never attack. I merely defend myself. I think in total I started one or two forum threads myself, in my whole life.

Quote:

I actually believe the majority of people on this site sees you as *the* representatives for Hyperion.

This would indicate that the majority cannot read, because my signature *clearly* states the opposite, that my opinion expressed in *this* message is mine, and does *not* represent that of Hyperion Entertainment. I had this discussion before, but like I said, my signature clearly states that I don't speak on behalf of Hyperion, but on my own.

Quote:

However, I don't think that is very strange, when your signature contains "Hans-Jörg Frieden, Hyperion Entertainment"

This just shows where I work. Someone working for Microsoft doesn't necessarily represent Microsoft, don't you think?

Quote:

All opinions expressed in this message are mine, and do not necessarily (Edit: but could?) represent that of Hyperion Entertainment", and you constantly seem to be speaking *on behalf* of Hyperion.

They could represent Hyperion's opinion, but there is nothing that should lead you to assume that this is the case. If I speak my mind about the War in Iraq, does that mean that Hyperion Entertainment does think the same about it? I don't think so. If I say that I don't think that BBRV is a good PR, does that mean that Hyperion Entertainment do think the same? No, why would it?

Quote:

I step in and try to point out the differences between the two sites, and the most recent example I could use (and the *only* one *from my own* experience) was the one mentioned above. That involved your posts in a remote way, but it was certainly not my main point (which was to point out the difference between the sites).

You couldn't restrain yourself from mentioning names. What's even worse, you couldn't keep yourself from mentioning *my* name. I don't really give a parrot dropping what people fancy is happening here on this site, and I don't buy into the "hidden Agenda" and "censorship" kind of ####, but I do care if someone tries to drag *my* name into it. If you had only wanted to "step in", you might have left out specific names, but I am sorry I have a hard time believing you didn't do it to badmouth me, because plainly that is how it came across ("The Friedens are always trolling and they are allowed to do that").

Yes, I feel offended, also because this is the second time in a row someone feels the need to do that (as I said, the other example was redrumloa's stupid Amiga.org posting, with the result that I no longer visit amiga.org), I feel especially offended because it was done in a fit of "moral high grounding", where people thought they'd have to somehow make up for fancied injustice done to them on another site.

As I wrote recently on Moobunny, if you want to say something say it to my face, but don't do it behind my back.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@takemehomegrandma
@Thread

Oh dear, I was supposed to cease talking on this thread...

OK, I want to clear up what I posted rather than contribute further to this thread.


Quote:

Quote: I'm fairly neutral on this as I was away while the worst of the troll wars was going on. This after saying that you are "fairly neutral on this"

By fair, I mean MorphOS v Amiga OS, not BBRV V Amiga. I'm talking about the two respective camps that decended from "Amiga powered by Jim Collas"

I am neutral on what I came back to find had replaced the "Amiga Community"

Quote:

My take is that if you would have been fairly neutral, you would indeed have said that BBRV added their share, but so did also: Bill McEwen Fleecy Moss Ben Hermans Alan Redhouse

The was didn't start from mutual disagreement. The war started when Bill Buck began his journey into the Amiga. I don't particularly want to delve into how completly hideous the mailing lists and usenet became after he launched his offensive.

MorphOS right up to BBRV was a companion OS with developers sharing late night chats on IRC. Half of my friends within the Amiga community were opting to try it.

However bad it became and however terrible the actions of all the people you quoted is just the natural results of the bad feeling BBRV brought to the community.

Then gradualy FUD began springing up all over the place and the same damn name kept poping up.

So if you can seperate MorphOS bplan and all the other companies that actually do the work from BBRV for a second, you'll understand why I'm neutral when it comes to "red v blue". I am claiming no neutrality on my views of Buck however.

Quote:

Seriously, it's this one-sided blaming I object to.

The RAF bombed and killed 100,000's of German civilians during WW2. It was a hideous reponse to the hideous acts that Germany under control of the NAZI's commited first.

Though we are talking several magnitudes below when it comes to Amiga, the same arguments can be made by an outsider when saying the NAZI's (Not the Germans) were the bad guys in that situation. If there had been no Buck, we could very well be having a sucesful marketplace for both sides.
Buck, not MorphOS was the problem. (This is personal - I'm not hiding him behind BBRV - I'm talking about the man "Bill Buck")

With Buck gone, there is no problem. If we can all shake off these chips we've collected on our shoulders, there is no reason why both sides can't be friends again.
We just gotta drop the crap said in the past. The Community is bigger than a couple of individuals so even if Fleecy or whoever said somthing in the past, the situations changed now. Lets forgive and forget and work together to stop my favourite computer from fading away.

In case you haven't noticed, both sides are dangerously close to dying. Even if Amiga Inc (KMOS) are true to their word and deliver an amazing computer again, there might not be any Amigans around to buy it. It's obvious how many people have left the Amiga scene because of the "Red v Blue War" (I was one of them). It turns people away.
I came back because I forsaw a change in the air. KMOS.

I thought we are are finaly back to profesionals running the shop again. Sofar they seem to be the only profesionals in the whole scene. Everyone else has acted like kids.
Yes, people can say bad things in forums about you, but unless it is libelous, there is no point in replying. It just turns a topic that would be boring into a major attraction. In the end all you do is promote the very thing you wanted stopped.

Quote:

No-one has done anything for the MorphOS community (or OS4 community either for that matter) that comes *even close* to what BBRV has achieved! No one comes close to BBRV's positive contributions to this community, not since the Commodore days! You choose to focus on negative things only, but the positive things outscores any negative things you could possibly come up with!

I can ask you somthing that cancels out any good he did.

Where are the hundreds of people that attended the World of Amiga shows in the UK a few years ago ?
AmigActive might not have been the huge success it intended to be, but there were still enough Amigans to warrent a glossy Magazine. Where did they all go?

WE all buggered off because of the split.

So yeah, fantastic.. He's been a real success for us all... I mean, come on you can't be serious? He lost MorphOS just as many users as he did Amiga...

Quote:

Quote: If you want proof, pay attention to the failed companies he's had his hands in. There is more of a crime IMHO to not try because of fear of failing, than it is to try and fail! There is no shame involved when an entrepreneur fails, as long as he tried the best he could! No-one could possibly ask for more! Most entrepreneur *do* fail in their ventures. Often many times. A bad entrepreneur folds after the first try. A good entrepreneur goes stronger out of each failure, and try again!

You know, I could really go on about Buck for a long time. I have interesting stories relayed to me by Petro about the VisCorp days. I could discuss with you the reasons why each company failed and why these reasons make him a bad buisnessman, but no. That individual is gone now. Lets not continue this war of words. Fling him in the box with our favourite Commodore boss and only mention his name on some distant occasion when we are waiting for a bus after a particualy good Amiga E3 showcase...

I call a truce.

@Rogue

Quote:

This is exactly what I said, and for which I got flamed like hell (including moobunnied) by takemehomegrandma. But apparently, if you say so, this isn't going to raise an eyebrow. If I say so it is trolling.

Normal. My flames are always viewed with the fact I'm MorphOS supporter.

Quote:

I thought it was in reference to a 68k exec replacement by Phase 5 or someone working for phase 5 that still had some original comments in it?

By Phase5? I dont know. I know that Ralph Schmidt was working on it with others. Who were the others, I dont know. Who copied comments from the original assembler source, I dont know. Was the original assembler source obtained legally and who held it? I dont know. Dave Haynie never told and I never asked Ralph Schmidt about it. This all happened in 1996. If Heinz Wrobel or Andy Finkel is still around they might remember something about it.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

I am sorry, but "shafting"(!!), my ass ...

After such a sycophantic post your really have no idea how apt that phrase is.

@takemehomegrandma

What you obviously fail to understand is that some of us are criticising Bill Buck WITHOUT defending anyone else. The "but he's just as bad as me" defense didn't even work for me when I was in KINDERGARDEN, for Bobs sakes. Why should Bill Buck be let off the hook just because some other moron is behaving badly?

With that in mind, tomorrow I'm gonna shoot someone in the head and point at George W Bush. He commands the forces that kill innocent people every day, why should I be any better? Logically they should let me go with just a warning on that one, right?

No, I'm really not going to do that. It's really not the kind of thing I enjoy doing. However, I'm so low on funds (and 9 days until payday) I might hold up a stagecoach or something, though. Or maybe invade Iraq, I hear there's good money in that these days. And then I'm DEFINETLY pointing at GWB. "He did it before me, I was just following the crowd". Yeah. That's gonna work.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: No, I'm really not going to do that. It's really not the kind of thing I enjoy doing.

Violence with woodwind instuments is more your style

@Uncharted

Quote:

Violence with woodwind instuments is more your style

No, not the Clarinet of Doom, anything but that!

_________________
Amiga user since 1985.

@DruidPoet

I resisted replying to this thread too...unfortunately your posts made me change my mind :-/

All I hear now when you go BBRV,Buck,BB,whatever.....is scapegoat.

That's not to say I feel they are entirely blameless but rather unfairly apportioned a share of the blame according to your (and some others) description of the world according to Amiga.

The blame lies in the actions of everybody - in this one thing I agree with cecilia. WE ARE THE AMIGA COMMUNITY....so if the community is a cesspool, best look in the mirror at our own actions (let he who is without sin case the first stone etc.)

This is not a holier than thou message..I too troll and advocate at some % greater than zero....just an observation.

Last edited by JKD on 07-Apr-2005 at 04:33 AM.

@DruidPoet

Quote:

Where are the hundreds of people that attended the World of Amiga shows in the UK a few years ago ? AmigActive might not have been the huge success it intended to be, but there were still enough Amigans to warrent a glossy Magazine. Where did they all go? WE all buggered off because of the split. So yeah, fantastic.. He's been a real success for us all... I mean, come on you can't be serious?

So now it's Bucks fault that AmigActive didn't bring enough cash for the publishinghouse? Or that people moved on as Amiga-hardware started rapidly showing signs of aging (hardware got broke, less and less software release, companies leaving). The split wasn't even on back then..

I mean come on you can't be serious?

@Rogue

LOL! I think it was I who said that Genesi have an excellent PR machine with bbrv in the earlier thread concerning this. I must have been smoking something at the time methinks. But here's an interesting picture of bbrv meeting with a US senator -- I wonder how much he uses his new Pegasos: http://www.pegasosppc.com/image.php?id=885

@theodosius

oh yeah, one more thing -- can we get the guy in the dress or the bald monk back -- the other avatar is too depressing.

@cell

Quote:

LOL! I think it was I who said that Genesi have an excellent PR machine with bbrv in the earlier thread concerning this. I must have been smoking something at the time methinks.

PR as in PUBLIC relations?
Not IMHO.

Marketing to businesses and groups and promotion?
Yep. I will very likely never like the guy by any stretch of my imagination...but you still have to respect some things- Pegs are supported by several Linux distros, including gentoo, and will likely be in the main kernel tree if not already (I'm sure Sven could answer this one if he sees the thread, but they're certainly in my gentoo kernel for 2.6.10). You can buy a replacement CPU from Freescale for a few hundred bucks. (no pun intended)

shrug..ok, I need sleep before someone calls me a troll for pointing out facts in a few threads...night!

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@itix

Quote:

Normal. My flames are always viewed with the fact I'm MorphOS supporter.

See what I mean...

Quote:

By Phase5? I dont know. I know that Ralph Schmidt was working on it with others. Who were the others, I dont know. Who copied comments from the original assembler source, I dont know. Was the original assembler source obtained legally and who held it? I dont know. Dave Haynie never told and I never asked Ralph Schmidt about it. This all happened in 1996. If Heinz Wrobel or Andy Finkel is still around they might remember something about it.

I can't claim to know anything about that, either. I just heard it from others, not only through this Dave Haynie thing. Whether it is true or not is something I cannot verify (and in fact never claimed I could).

It's off-topic as well.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@hooligan

Quote:

Quote: WE all buggered off because of the split. So now it's Bucks fault that AmigActive didn't bring enough cash for the publishinghouse?

Did I say that? No i don't think I did.. I said that a couple of years ago there were many Amigans (Who had survived Commodore, Escom, Gateway.)and now there are not many Amigans. Why did you try to turn this into a dig about a magazine?
Quote:

Or that people moved on as Amiga-hardware started rapidly showing signs of aging (hardware got broke, less and less software release, companies leaving).

Hey kit breaks all the time. The trouble was when you tried to replace it, you were faced with two rapidly disintegrating communities. Neither compatable with the other. Don't dare try to suggest kit was the problem. Back then you could pick up a fully maxed 1200T for a couple of hundred quid.

#amiga on one irc server turned into a blue's only channel and another a red. The spilt was the 90% reason why I and many of my friends left the scene.

I had 10 ex Amigans in my former buisness, all left because of the split. The split the split!

Do you get it? The Split!!!! Can I make it any more obvious for you?

@wegster

There's obviously some business accumen there, which begs the question, why did the guy act like such a toss piece in the amiga community? (Morons, phone numbers, public threats etc.)

Genesi had everything over the competition. First to market, cheaper, more davanced (Peg2) hardware better marketing and vendor support. They could of slayed the competition. But it was all pissed away on childish stunts, and bloody flame wars.