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      /  It's time to join the forces
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PosterThread
CodeSmith 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 8:00:56
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Mechanic

You owe me a new keyboard

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CodeSmith 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 8:04:40
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@itix

It seems to me to be some sort of tribalistic behavior, the sort of thing that was an evolutionary advantage 100K years ago but is still there, and only surfaces in unusual situations (eg the army) nowadays. I'm sure there's an explanation for it somewhere in a sociology textbook. Anyone here who knows that particular science and could comment?

Last edited by CodeSmith on 21-Sep-2010 at 08:06 AM.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 8:42:00
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Chicago, IL

@billt

Blazemonger ruled!

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Mechanic 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 14:51:33
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
It seems to me to be some sort of tribalistic behavior, (snip)

I think you're right about that, but tribal more in the sense of gang related.

Hatred is irrational and takes a conscious decision not to do it. I mean, when
you hate, the object of that hatred owns you. It occupies your thoughts, steals
your dreams, drives out rational thought and drives away rational people. Gang
mentality.

OTOH not trusting someone/something is prudent until that trust is earned or
re-established after some real or imagined transgression.

I am ready for a new beginning, and I want to go my way. If others choose another
path, that's up to them. It is nice however to look over the fence now and again
to see what your neighbor is celebrating and be welcomed for your interest, not
admonished for your choices either directly or through innuendo.

OUCH! Just fell off my soapbox. Always HATED that thing anyway. GRrrrrr....

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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 15:33:31
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11432
From: In the village

@CodeSmith

Quote:
I'm sure there's an explanation for it somewhere in a sociology textbook. Anyone here who knows that particular science and could comment?


This is not my field, but I've been an observer of this behavior for eons.

Part of it is ego, or more accurately the boost to one's ego one gets when latching onto certain popular personalities. What we're talking about is foot soldiers. They tend to agree with someone above them in the chain. That agreement comes without question. We've seen it with developers that post, followed by confirmations of "me too". That person above can also be a manager, a person with strong general knowledge not connected to any "camp", a member of a website's staff, etc. etc.

This is a short term ego boost to attach oneself to a "leader".
Longer term, though, if these same people performed a little research (self-education) and drew their OWN conclusions about things, they would experience an ego boost with staying power. Further along, that person could then become a leader themself, instead of their former follower role.

Just my 2.

#6

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Jupp3 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 16:28:54
#86 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:
Well, it sucks that the MorphOS team were not prepared to accept the demands of Amiga Inc (and vice versa), while Hyperion were

Here you are assuming the contracts were equally bad, which might not have been the case. Often after getting rejected, companies tend to offer better terms the next time.

And considering MorphOS had already working (let's leave better / worse off this discussion, it's not the point) components instead of what Amiga inc. wanted (MUI/reaction, Cybergraphx/Picasso96, don't remember if PowerUP/WarpUP was also involved), I think it's pretty natural to oppose such suggestions (replacing already working component with another).

For Hyperion, it probably didn't make much difference which ones to use, as they had to start from (more or less) same point anyway. So less reasons to oppose such requirements.

Back then after negotiations ended, there was definite feeling that Amiga inc. couldn't do AmigaOS4 as they announced they would (so even if unofficial, MorphOS would be left as the "only successor" on PPC) and I am pretty sure that MorphOS team felt the same aswell. And correct, Amiga inc. didn't manage to do any worthwhile in-house development.

Basically choices where:
a)MorphOS
b)In-house development

And after failing at a) and b), the end result was c)Other (outsourcing to Hyperion) that not many people expected. And in the beginning that didn't seem to go too well either (totally unrealistic schedules, which obviously failed)

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persia 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 16:45:05
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@Jupp3
And Hyperion really intended to drive Amiga Inc out of business anyway, so whatever the contract said it was irrelevant except for the insolvency bit...

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Mechanic 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 17:52:41
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@persia

Quote:

persia wrote:

And Hyperion really intended to drive Amiga Inc out of business anyway


Huh? and What business?

I mean..... could you expand on that in relation to the stated goals of Ainc at that time. ??
(if that makes any sense)

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 19:59:26
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
I do agree with the "witch" reference though.


Hehe

it was a typo, altough some people are considered a sort of...


I want to ask to the community, btw, how can we picture a reunion.

Ideas?

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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 20:04:36
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11432
From: In the village

@AmigaBlitter

Thanks for understanding my humor.
The other part, though, I was serious about.

Quote:
Please produce the "party" list


There are many different relationships and issues, but some only apply to one company (If I may call them that) vs another.
In short, if you look for a "one solution fits all" case, I don't think that exists.

#6

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Tomppeli 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 22:08:05
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1646
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@number6

Quote:
We've seen it with developers that post, followed by confirmations of "me too".

Or they just agree. It's easier to write a short answer in a foreign language than try to make a long one.

_________________
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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 21-Sep-2010 22:14:19
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11432
From: In the village

@Tomppeli

Quote:
Or they just agree. It's easier to write a short answer in a foreign language than try to make a long one.


Sure. Perfectly legitimate in responding to posts.

But I hope you understand my context. I was referring to accusations made against others followed up by the foot soldier backing up the developer's post, in order to be in his good graces and somehow feel elevated in status by having done so.

#6

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 25-Sep-2010 18:25:41
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
Please produce the "party" list, although I see nothing festive about most of our amiga parties... I do agree with the "witch" reference though.


AmigaOS4 / Hyperion (Core OS developer)
MorphOS4 / Genesi - MOS Team (OS apps developers)
Aros / Aros Team (OS beta developing and platforms explorer)
ACube (Hardware developer)
A-Eon (Hardware developer)
Natami Team (chipset development & research)
Commodore (the real one)

Just my 2 cents.

Collaboration is the best solution. I know that there was conflicts and misunderstandings in the past, but a sign of humility would be appreciated by all. There is no room for old grudges, this is the time to get back together.

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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 25-Sep-2010 21:39:46
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11432
From: In the village

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
AmigaOS4 / Hyperion (Core OS developer)
MorphOS4 / Genesi - MOS Team (OS apps developers)
Aros / Aros Team (OS beta developing and platforms explorer)
ACube (Hardware developer)
A-Eon (Hardware developer)
Natami Team (chipset development & research)
Commodore (the real one)


Quote:
Collaboration is the best solution. I know that there was conflicts and misunderstandings in the past, but a sign of humility would be appreciated by all. There is no room for old grudges, this is the time to get back together.


First maybe we should refine your list a bit.

I dont see where MorphOS has anything against the people involved in either Acube or A-Eon. In fact, many MorphOS users and developers have respect for Max and Trevor. However, MorphOS developers and Ralph have obviously chosen a different hardware direction for the short term. Therefore, although I see no issues...I also see no real chance of collaboration with hardware developers Acube or A-Eon.

AROS seems to get along well with everyone, perhaps because they have no real management ideology pushing them in any particular direction. Dunno.

Commodore (as in Commodore USA) is an early startup. Until they've had some time to prove themselves, I find it impossible to see where they fit it with the others you have listed. From a co-operative standpoint we already know that Hyperion has shown no interest and views them as a threat. MorphOS, which was not tied to the issues or settlement of AI/Hyperion probably have no interest whatsoever in C=USA either.

Natami/Minimig/EMU all represent alternatives, but I don't see how anyone would feel such endeavors are threatening to sales of either AmigaOS or MorphOS.
It's an entirely different set of interests. Again...no issues, but also no real chance of collaboration.

The two logical groups to be working together were and are AmigaOS4 and MorphOS. The only thing that has ever stood in the way of progress on that front is the lack of will to do so and the ability to devise a plan that satisfies everyone. If the leadership drove such a plan, the foot soldiers would eventually fall in line.

Currently, since most MorphOS users and developers see their operating system, hardware, and applications as being further ahead of AmigaOS, they have no desire to go overboard with co-operation.

AmigaOS seems to bank on new hardware leading the way towards their future.

As I said, an argument/plan would need to be formed that appealed to all. Otherwise, I believe the above opinions would continue to be unwaiveringly upheld.

Feel free to tear my opinions to shreds. Heh.

#6

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Mechanic 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 25-Sep-2010 22:44:50
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@number6
Quote:

However, MorphOS developers and Ralph have obviously chosen a different hardware direction for the short term. Therefore, although I see no issues...I also see no real chance of collaboration with hardware developers Acube or A-Eon.


If a collaboration occurred, it could turn out to be a very sticky situation for the
hardware guys. Let's say Varisys and Xmos came up with some PCI(e) card that people
wanted dearly, but it required a bios/OS change that prevented MorphOS from even
booting. Now, if they have contracts/legal stuff to follow and many of their customers
are dual booting both OS's or Morph only . . . . . well, I wouldn't want to be any where
near that bomb. I mean whose problem is it? That shoe is also too tight on the other foot.

Quote:

From a co-operative standpoint we already know that Hyperion has shown no interest and views them as a threat.


I can only say, from what they have done so far, the threat is that of a loose cannon.

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number6 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 25-Sep-2010 23:10:53
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11432
From: In the village

@Mechanic

Quote:
can only say, from what they have done so far, the threat is that of a loose cannon.


Perhaps that's how many see it, but it's also a point of law to fear, not just a specific to C=USA.
It may be more about the door being open to stretch the terms of settlement in general.

#6

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Mechanic 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 26-Sep-2010 0:11:40
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@number6

Exactly. And that means many will have to keep an eye on them due to
their shenanigans. You either vigorously protect what is yours or you
*could* loose it to unscrupulous people. Sad really, the wasted energy.

Enough of that.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 26-Sep-2010 8:59:16
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
Feel free to tear my opinions to shreds


I don't want to shreds any opinion #6.
Collaboration means listen what other people have to say about an argoument. My list is only my 2 cent, of course a better list can be written on paper by the involved parties.

Quote:
Natami/Minimig/EMU all represent alternatives, but I don't see how anyone would feel such endeavors are threatening to sales of either AmigaOS or MorphOS. It's an entirely different set of interests. Again...no issues, but also no real chance of collaboration.


I'm not talking about menace to amiga/morphos team, but about, again, collaboration. I saw how the Natami team have a great knowledge of the old Amiga chipset. Moreover, they are capable of improve the old chipset, you know. Have a handful of men available to develop new ideas or new chipset features would be great.

Quote:
Commodore (as in Commodore USA) is an early startup.

Not talking about this one. I'm talking about the Commodore who retain the C= mark and rights.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 29-Sep-2010 19:52:46
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@number6

I wonder if any of the mentioned parties will spon on here.

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amitv 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 4-Oct-2010 19:29:10
#100 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 346
From: Unknown

i doubt that any of the parties you mentioned will reply

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