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      /  [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
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Poll : Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Yes.
No.
Not agein
You got to be kidding me!
I'm a Troll
I'm on fire....
I'm nuts....
 
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polka. 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 12:54:37
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@smithy

My thoughts exactly, very well put!

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Kicko 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:00:01
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

i would buy x86 hardware. then i could use windows also hehehe.


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The_Editor 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:10:50
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7629
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

@thread

I'd love Os4 on a laptop.. ( notice I didn't say cheap.)

but...


There must be a valid reason why (that we know) that path is not being pursued.

Love them or hate them, ... Even BBRV does not produce for x86 market.

And I consider them to be pretty sharp business people.




So I guess the answer is..

It aint gonna happen... Till it happens !!

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pixie 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:14:08
#24 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2674
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@The_Editor

Had the PPC the performance/value of x86 and I guess many wouldn't be asking for a port, as for BBRV, I bet their long term goal is to achieve that on *their* hardware...

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Rogue 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:17:32
#25 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@smithy

Quote:
Actually I've noticed that this kind of attitude is more commonplace in the anti-x86 lobby now. In 5+ years, none of you have managed to come up with a single reason why the x86 port is a bad thing, yet you lot still continue with your incomprehensible anti-x86 dogma and don't even bother justifying your Amiga-death policies.


Since I am also part of the anti-x86 lobby, I will give you a few reasons as to why not. It's going to be the only post I do on the topic, mainly because I have repeated these reasons over and over and frankly growing extremely tired of it. Accept these reasons from me or not, I don't care and it won't change anything anyway.

Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.

It should be reasonably simple to see why this would prevent the x86 port totally, even if there was any interest from our side to port it to x86.

Reason 2: x86 equals Windows

I don't care how many contradict this point, but it is a matter of fact that Windows will always be there. I've seriously heard pro-X86-arguments saying "It would make it easy for me to boot into Windows and use Internet Explorer to browse the web", which leads seamlessly to the question as to why you would need an AmigaOS brower in the first place then.

Of course, you might take the fatalistic stance ("There isn't any decent browser on AmigaOS anyway"), but I'd like to think more positive to be honest.

Reason 3: x86 means a multitude of chipsets to support

Face it, NVidia is not going to part with any information on NForce chipsets. And even if you HAVE the actual documentation (like with the VIA686 SB) you still run into all sorts of issues. So this is going to swallow a lot of time and effort.

You could of course limit yourself to a specific chipset or board, and hope that six months down the line that board was still available, or the chipset wouldn't have seen at least X new revisions, but I don't think that is feasible.

And no, Linux isn't a good example, beause for one thing there is little commercial pressure behind it (Distros will just point to the Linux source code) and there is a whole lot more developers working on it. (and no, AmigaOS will not go open source).

Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

X86 has zero impact on embedded systems. That market is dominated by XScale, PowerPC and MIPS. AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

So yes, I *am* bored with this discussion, mostly because it is a dead horse and has been beaten to death at least a hundred times in the meanwhile. You may like or dislike the reasons I have given, but face it, it is irrelevant because it just will not happen.

Yes, I know that the hardware situation is a problem. However, things are going to change soon now, and maybe then we can get this whole fruitless discussion finrally settled down.

Okay, that's all I am going to say. Go ahead and dismantle my arguments, I don't care because they are valid for Hyperion and hence nothing you can say is ever going to change this (especially with respect to 1 and 4). We could discuss the gender of angels with the same practical relevance here, the x86 discussion makes about that much sense.

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Skunkfish 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:20:31
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Sep-2004
Posts: 295
From: Liverpool, UK

@thread

When the topic of OS4 on x86 comes up (every 12 hours or so) a frequent response is that AmigaOS IS already available for x86 machines in the form of AROS.

I'm beginning to listen to their point. Since OS4 is tied to unavailable hardware, and any new hardware will be a) expensive in comparison to x86 hardware and b) only available in limited quantities (therefore limiting the use of OS4 on the desktop to no more than a few '000 people) I propose that the entire Amiga community (developers and users) leave OS4 behind and get AROS installed on x86 machines giving the Amiga a real future.

If everyone's not willing to do that then could the select few lucky enough to own a machine capable of running OS4 stop telling us to 'use AROS instead'.

*let-off steam mode disabled*

Skunkfish

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polka. 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:36:00
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Rogue

I guess we are just debating about different things. There is not much reason to argue that porting OS4.0 to x86 at this stage is not possible and does not make much sense for Hyperion.
But since Hyperion was contracted for OS4.0, things might look different in the future. Nobody knows what will happen with OS development after Hyperion finally "delivered" OS4.0 final. Therefore, discussion about "what would make sense" for the future is not something completely irrelevant and bogus.

Again, most discussion is not about "what makes sense for Hyperion at the current stage of development", but "what makes sense for AmigaOS as a desktop OS".

Quote:
Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.


This is not a reason against "why x86 makes sense", but a reason against the licensing scheme.

Quote:
I've seriously heard pro-X86-arguments saying "It would make it easy for me to boot into Windows and use Internet Explorer to browse the web", which leads seamlessly to the question as to why you would need an AmigaOS brower in the first place then.


Reality flash, that's what people already do. I would guess that more than 90% already use a x86 machine with a decent browser besides their AmigaOne. Yet, they still use OS4. The situation of getting a decent browser for OS4 could change easily if more people (developers!) have access to the platform at a decent price. It is not surprising that Firefox hasn't been ported yet to OS4 with a userbase of about 1000-2000 people.
Having access to cheap hardware would grow this userbase, boost development and people would in fact have LESS reasons to switch to Windows (provided that the most critical apps have been ported).

Quote:
X86 has zero impact on embedded systems. That market is dominated by XScale, PowerPC and MIPS. AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.


Yep, but have you never asked yourself why the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible?
It exactly is a result of the "custom-PPC-hardware-only" situation. The sad thing is just that the OS4-partners didn't realize that from the start. The "going embedded" option is just a result of the desktop market being a non-profitable failure.
If the desktop market for OS4 is non-profitable and doesn't generate any profit, people should finally realize that OS 4 on licensed custom PPC hardware is a dead-end without any future.

There is no reason to keep on developing for 4.x on license-dongled hardware. No company would do that. And why would Hyperion want to do that? If the embedded market looks more proftable and the desktop market only generates losses, why not completely abandon it?

Quote:
Yes, I know that the hardware situation is a problem. However, things are going to change soon now, and maybe then we can get this whole fruitless discussion finrally settled down.


Of course, to some extend, the talk about x86 is a result of the no-hardware situation. However, even when hardware becomes available, it will still be expensive and rather slow compared to what is state of the art on x86.
People will still see this as a main hurdle for getting any customers outside the group of Amiga-fanatics.

Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 01:57 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 01:48 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 01:37 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:58:52
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2217
From: Unknown

@Serpi

Quote:

Serpi wrote:

But would you buy a new x86 box just to be able to run OS4?


Dunno, but 4.5 years aga I bought a new x86 box to run Amithlon, and I still think it would have been best for the community if that had been declared "OS4" by making it the official upgrade path.

But as allways they managed to snatch a defeat out of the hands of a certain victory

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Hans 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:04:19
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

No I do not feel like waiting another few years while someone ports AmigaOS to yet another different CPU. Someone please, manufacture both low cost and high end hardware so that Hyperion can release OS4 final and people can actually buy it THIS YEAR!

Amiga OS4 works well on my A1 and it really annoys me that other people can't buy a machine and use it too.

Hans

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Hans 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:07:21
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@Kronos

Wasn't Amithlon an optimised version of UAE that could also run native binaries? It's still an emulator. As good as it was (never got to try it myself unfortunately), I don't think that it would have been good as an x86 OS because the base system is still an emulator.

Hans

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:52:08
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2217
From: Unknown

@Hans

It was an emulator that wasn't just but also more stable than anything we've seen on the PPC sofar.

There was also a followup (Umilator) which was never released but show what enormous potentila lay in it's concept.

There may have been some things that would have allways stayed "emulator" but a current x86 running at 50% of it's native speed is still much faster than a G3/4 running together with stone-age componets (and much cheaper off-course).

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Seehund 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:01:59
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:

Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.


That's not a reason to be against x86 as I see it, it's a simple matter of fact. I suspect that smithy was more interested in why that fact came to be in the first place...

Quote:
Reason 2: x86 equals Windows


Oh yes! And Linux. And AROS. And *BSD. And ...
IMO this is a reason to be FOR x86 (or more "common" hardware in general, also when it comes to PPC), not against it.
The ability to run several OSes INCREASES the value of a given piece of hardware, not the opposite. "With hardware X I can run all these OSes and apps, but not with hardware Y." And this in turn could make each OS running on it more attractive to the potential customer. "This newfangled OS P looks interesting, and it runs on the same cheap/fast/good machine as OS Q, R, S,... and all their apps also run on."

Face it, the primary market for AmigaOS (yeah yeah, I know: on the desktop) are us nerds. Nerds generally don't see having the option to dual boot if they so choose as something negative!

Quote:
Reason 3: x86 means a multitude of chipsets to support

Face it, NVidia is not going to part with any information on NForce chipsets. And even if you HAVE the actual documentation (like with the VIA686 SB) you still run into all sorts of issues. So this is going to swallow a lot of time and effort.

You could of course limit yourself to a specific chipset or board, and hope that six months down the line that board was still available, or the chipset wouldn't have seen at least X new revisions, but I don't think that is feasible.


You mean just like with PPC or any other CPU, then.
Except that if the compulsory hardware licensing idiocy was scrapped, you (or another OS development licensee) could begin work immediately on supporting whatever hardware/chipset you think is viable if the current option disappeared (*cough* Eyetech *cough* "AmigaOne"), without having to wait for a new hardware licensee to appear and to actually get a licence from AInc.

You're not going to be able to squeeze out more information from Apple/Genesi (the only remaining relevant consumer desktop PPC vendors) or their component suppliers than you can get from any consumer desktop x86 vendor or their suppliers. Either the info is available or it's not. In this regard I don't think that the choice of CPU is very relevant. The difference would be that you have more to choose from if you went with x86 (and if the hardware licensing/bundling wasn't compulsory, so that you were free to choose at all).

Quote:
Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

X86 has zero impact on embedded systems.


Even if this were entirely true, then neither has AmigaOS. Any impact on the embedded market, that is.
I don't get this new "AmigaOS was always meant for the embedded market" cheer. Exactly what type of embedded systems do you think AmigaOS would be at all suitable for, and which vendors would even consider embedding AmigaOS instead of the many established alternatives? One OS component licenced to here and another to there, maybe, but the whole OS...?

AHT had negotiated and were about to sign a licence deal for AOS4 on an STB when AInc did a U-turn on them, and before that AHT were asked by their advisors how much AInc would pay AHT for putting AmigaOS on their STB! The AHT people are/were amigans and were actually interested in shipping AmigaOS, but what about anyone else in the industry...?

I would love to be proven wrong about the viability of "embedded AmigaOS", and wish you luck!

Quote:
AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.


Could be. But then it's funny that the AmigaOS 4 desktop project (which I suppose the vast majority of us here are interested in, unless we're planning to sell "embedded systems") was started at all. After all, AInc decided to kill any possible desktop OS market there could have been, with their hardware licensing creation.

Quote:
You may like or dislike the reasons I have given, but face it, it is irrelevant because it just will not happen.


Sad but probably true.

Quote:
However, things are going to change soon now, ...


Aaaargh! :P
After the "Two More Weeks" and "When It's Done" slogans, perhaps it's time to adopt "Four More Years" from American politics? ;)


@poll question

Yes. That is if none of my current x86 boxen would run it, and if I wouldn't have to buy "special Amiga hardware" on a "special Amiga hardware" market.

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polka. 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:22:44
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Seehund

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
Quote:
AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

Seehund wrote:
Could be. But then it's funny that the AmigaOS 4 desktop project (which I suppose the vast majority of us here are interested in, unless we're planning to sell "embedded systems") was started at all. After all, AInc decided to kill any possible desktop OS market there could have been, with their hardware licensing creation.


That quote from Rogue is what I'd like some people to read a few times. The desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.
Could somebody from the anti-x86 group please tell me a reason for that? If it's not the licensing scheme and the "need" for "special" hardware, what is it exactly? What do you think would be the best to make OS4 profitable on the desktop market? Staying PPC? Limiting the OS only to "license" hardware?

Face it, since OS4 as a desktop OS does not yield enough turnover on PPC, there is no reason to develop it beyond version 4.0. Well not unless there is a fundamental change in licensing policy or target hardware.

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Hans 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:25:14
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@Kronos

Quote:
There may have been some things that would have allways stayed "emulator" but a current x86 running at 50% of it's native speed is still much faster than a G3/4 running together with stone-age componets (and much cheaper off-course).


A bit of dramatic exaggeration here eh? Regardless, the problem would come when people realise that they're only getting 50% out of their machine and start complaining about lack of efficiency etc. AmigaOS is supposed to be an efficient OS so likely lot of people will get "angry and disillusioned" under this scenario. It won't matter if it's faster than current A1 machines, people will feel that they're not getting their money's worth.

Hans

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Maczilla 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:29:55
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Oct-2003
Posts: 206
From: USA

I voted no because I'm not interested in running
Winblows - I don't even care much about Intel Macs.
My last Mac will probably be an MDD (for OS 9) or
a perhaps a G5 something or other.

@TrebleSix
I can't speak to office suite or browser, but the
link is to an open source video editor that seems
to be available for most other platforms (perhaps
a cantidate for porting to OS 4)

http://www.jahshaka.org/

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:30:26
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rob

Quote:
I voted no because it's not going to happen.

Not OS4, at least not by Hyperion, but an AmigaOS API compatble OS by others, absolutely.

If anyone wants this to happen in their life times, then I strongly suggest that you support AROS any any way that you can.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:36:46
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@polka.

Quote:
What a funny reasoning.

I absolutely agree! I've yet to see any legitimate arguements other than the plain fact that Hyperion has next to no interest in the mid to long term success of the Amiga OS on anything other than embedded devices, certainly not the desktop market. I just cannot see any other reason why anyone would take this stance if they legitimately wanted to see the desktop market and the developpers for it grow further.

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afxgroup 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:38:22
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

STOP.. PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOOOOOOPPPPP!!!!!

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Skunkfish 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:39:48
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Sep-2004
Posts: 295
From: Liverpool, UK

The problem with waiting for new hardware for OS4 is that it makes absolutely no economical sense to produce hardware JUST for OS4, the market just isn't big enough and won't be in the near future.

Even if solutions such as the Amy '05 from Troika do turn up there is no way that they could support continued sales from the Amiga market. There will be maybe one production run or two and then the product will be discontinued, leaving another hardware void.

I don't know of any companies proposing OS4 compatible hardware that could manufacture it in a sufficient quantity to be cost effective.

Eyetech tried their best with the AmigaOne but proved that its practically impossible to succeed with that business model.


For OS4 to stand a chance on the desktop it needs to be running on readily available, proven hardware that will see continued development in the future. Maybe time to speak to Bill Buck?

Skunkfish

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:40:43
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@smithy

Quote:
Do you really think that or have you just run out of any valid points. It's this kind of elitist 'if you don't agree you must be a pirate' attitude that is killing the Amiga spirit. Actually I've noticed that this kind of attitude is more commonplace in the anti-x86 lobby now. In 5+ years, none of you have managed to come up with a single reason why the x86 port is a bad thing, yet you lot still continue with your incomprehensible anti-x86 dogma and don't even bother justifying your Amiga-death policies. Instead you just resort to abuse ("you're a pirate"), or "I'm bored with this discussion" (then don't join it), or the supremely pathetic "No - because situation will never change" (like group-marching into a minefield chanting "WE AMIGANS RULE!").


Yeah! Someone else calling it like it is!

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