@Kronos

Wasn't Amithlon an optimised version of UAE that could also run native binaries? It's still an emulator. As good as it was (never got to try it myself unfortunately), I don't think that it would have been good as an x86 OS because the base system is still an emulator.

Hans

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No I do not feel like waiting another few years while someone ports AmigaOS to yet another different CPU. Someone please, manufacture both low cost and high end hardware so that Hyperion can release OS4 final and people can actually buy it THIS YEAR!

Amiga OS4 works well on my A1 and it really annoys me that other people can't buy a machine and use it too.

Hans

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@Serpi

Quote:

Serpi wrote: But would you buy a new x86 box just to be able to run OS4?

Dunno, but 4.5 years aga I bought a new x86 box to run Amithlon, and I still think it would have been best for the community if that had been declared "OS4" by making it the official upgrade path.

But as allways they managed to snatch a defeat out of the hands of a certain victory

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@Rogue

I guess we are just debating about different things. There is not much reason to argue that porting OS4.0 to x86 at this stage is not possible and does not make much sense for Hyperion.
But since Hyperion was contracted for OS4.0, things might look different in the future. Nobody knows what will happen with OS development after Hyperion finally "delivered" OS4.0 final. Therefore, discussion about "what would make sense" for the future is not something completely irrelevant and bogus.

Again, most discussion is not about "what makes sense for Hyperion at the current stage of development", but "what makes sense for AmigaOS as a desktop OS".

Quote:

Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.

This is not a reason against "why x86 makes sense", but a reason against the licensing scheme.

Quote:

I've seriously heard pro-X86-arguments saying "It would make it easy for me to boot into Windows and use Internet Explorer to browse the web", which leads seamlessly to the question as to why you would need an AmigaOS brower in the first place then.

Reality flash, that's what people already do. I would guess that more than 90% already use a x86 machine with a decent browser besides their AmigaOne. Yet, they still use OS4. The situation of getting a decent browser for OS4 could change easily if more people (developers!) have access to the platform at a decent price. It is not surprising that Firefox hasn't been ported yet to OS4 with a userbase of about 1000-2000 people.
Having access to cheap hardware would grow this userbase, boost development and people would in fact have LESS reasons to switch to Windows (provided that the most critical apps have been ported).

Quote:

X86 has zero impact on embedded systems. That market is dominated by XScale, PowerPC and MIPS. AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

Yep, but have you never asked yourself why the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible?
It exactly is a result of the "custom-PPC-hardware-only" situation. The sad thing is just that the OS4-partners didn't realize that from the start. The "going embedded" option is just a result of the desktop market being a non-profitable failure.
If the desktop market for OS4 is non-profitable and doesn't generate any profit, people should finally realize that OS 4 on licensed custom PPC hardware is a dead-end without any future.

There is no reason to keep on developing for 4.x on license-dongled hardware. No company would do that. And why would Hyperion want to do that? If the embedded market looks more proftable and the desktop market only generates losses, why not completely abandon it?

Quote:

Yes, I know that the hardware situation is a problem. However, things are going to change soon now, and maybe then we can get this whole fruitless discussion finrally settled down.

Of course, to some extend, the talk about x86 is a result of the no-hardware situation. However, even when hardware becomes available, it will still be expensive and rather slow compared to what is state of the art on x86.
People will still see this as a main hurdle for getting any customers outside the group of Amiga-fanatics.

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@thread

When the topic of OS4 on x86 comes up (every 12 hours or so) a frequent response is that AmigaOS IS already available for x86 machines in the form of AROS.

I'm beginning to listen to their point. Since OS4 is tied to unavailable hardware, and any new hardware will be a) expensive in comparison to x86 hardware and b) only available in limited quantities (therefore limiting the use of OS4 on the desktop to no more than a few '000 people) I propose that the entire Amiga community (developers and users) leave OS4 behind and get AROS installed on x86 machines giving the Amiga a real future.

If everyone's not willing to do that then could the select few lucky enough to own a machine capable of running OS4 stop telling us to 'use AROS instead'.

*let-off steam mode disabled*

Skunkfish

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@smithy

Quote:

Actually I've noticed that this kind of attitude is more commonplace in the anti-x86 lobby now. In 5+ years, none of you have managed to come up with a single reason why the x86 port is a bad thing, yet you lot still continue with your incomprehensible anti-x86 dogma and don't even bother justifying your Amiga-death policies.

Since I am also part of the anti-x86 lobby, I will give you a few reasons as to why not. It's going to be the only post I do on the topic, mainly because I have repeated these reasons over and over and frankly growing extremely tired of it. Accept these reasons from me or not, I don't care and it won't change anything anyway.

Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.

It should be reasonably simple to see why this would prevent the x86 port totally, even if there was any interest from our side to port it to x86.

Reason 2: x86 equals Windows

I don't care how many contradict this point, but it is a matter of fact that Windows will always be there. I've seriously heard pro-X86-arguments saying "It would make it easy for me to boot into Windows and use Internet Explorer to browse the web", which leads seamlessly to the question as to why you would need an AmigaOS brower in the first place then.

Of course, you might take the fatalistic stance ("There isn't any decent browser on AmigaOS anyway"), but I'd like to think more positive to be honest.

Reason 3: x86 means a multitude of chipsets to support

Face it, NVidia is not going to part with any information on NForce chipsets. And even if you HAVE the actual documentation (like with the VIA686 SB) you still run into all sorts of issues. So this is going to swallow a lot of time and effort.

You could of course limit yourself to a specific chipset or board, and hope that six months down the line that board was still available, or the chipset wouldn't have seen at least X new revisions, but I don't think that is feasible.

And no, Linux isn't a good example, beause for one thing there is little commercial pressure behind it (Distros will just point to the Linux source code) and there is a whole lot more developers working on it. (and no, AmigaOS will not go open source).

Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

X86 has zero impact on embedded systems. That market is dominated by XScale, PowerPC and MIPS. AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

So yes, I *am* bored with this discussion, mostly because it is a dead horse and has been beaten to death at least a hundred times in the meanwhile. You may like or dislike the reasons I have given, but face it, it is irrelevant because it just will not happen.

Yes, I know that the hardware situation is a problem. However, things are going to change soon now, and maybe then we can get this whole fruitless discussion finrally settled down.

Okay, that's all I am going to say. Go ahead and dismantle my arguments, I don't care because they are valid for Hyperion and hence nothing you can say is ever going to change this (especially with respect to 1 and 4). We could discuss the gender of angels with the same practical relevance here, the x86 discussion makes about that much sense.

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@The_Editor

Had the PPC the performance/value of x86 and I guess many wouldn't be asking for a port, as for BBRV, I bet their long term goal is to achieve that on *their* hardware...

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@thread

I'd love Os4 on a laptop.. ( notice I didn't say cheap.)

but...


There must be a valid reason why (that we know) that path is not being pursued.

Love them or hate them, ... Even BBRV does not produce for x86 market.

And I consider them to be pretty sharp business people.




So I guess the answer is..

It aint gonna happen... Till it happens !!

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i would buy x86 hardware. then i could use windows also hehehe.

@smithy

My thoughts exactly, very well put!

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Quote:

AmiGame wrote: @smithy Unfortunatly it's what help killing what's left of the Amiga Community/Spirit. First you won't buy any Hardware (unless it's FREE !),

No I don't expect free hardware, I always pay for my hardware. Because there is a lot of competition in the hardware market, I have lots of choice, and prices are competitive. That's what I want, and that's what I buy my hardware.

Quote:

then you will use Gnucleus, Sharezea, etc... to download AOS4 for free using the argument that you already payed for an OS (windblows) when buying your windtell machine !

Are you accusing me of being a pirate? What a load of ########!!! Do you really think that or have you just run out of any valid points. It's this kind of elitist 'if you don't agree you must be a pirate' attitude that is killing the Amiga spirit. Actually I've noticed that this kind of attitude is more commonplace in the anti-x86 lobby now. In 5+ years, none of you have managed to come up with a single reason why the x86 port is a bad thing, yet you lot still continue with your incomprehensible anti-x86 dogma and don't even bother justifying your Amiga-death policies. Instead you just resort to abuse ("you're a pirate"), or "I'm bored with this discussion" (then don't join it), or the supremely pathetic "No - because situation will never change" (like group-marching into a minefield chanting "WE AMIGANS RULE!").

@Serpi

But do you know how a PC box is made? If it's not costum, why the hell wouldn't I or anyone be allowable to buy just the motherboard?

Still... a x86 box would always be cheaper then a PPC one, and if it wasn't, then one would argue why the dell not... so it make sense that, namely the outsiders, would rather buy (even if only trought this box approach) the x86 then PPC. I'm talking about joe user here, that doesn't care much about CPU 'pureness', but rather want a computer to be affordable and doing what he needs to get done

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@smithy

Quote:

Yes yes yes. I've already got a perfectly good PC that's faster, cheaper than any planned new "Amiga" and I don't see why I should be forced to buy another computer just for one OS.

But would you buy a new x86 box just to be able to run OS4?
Even if OS4 for x86 would exist, it would most probably only support very few mainboards and plugged in gadgets, so most people would have to buy a (more or less) complete new x86 box, just to be able to run OS4.
So, how many people would really buy a new x86 box for running OS4, especially when they already have a x86 box for running Windows/Linux?

Ciao, Alfred

@fatman2021
I voted no because I wouldn't buy a pre installed computer, but I would happily buy from the supported motherboards the one who fitted the best my interest (well if it was only one, I would buy it)

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@Thread

It's not about "should such port be done or not", it's just about what would you do if it existed. So it's not like other threads on a similar idea.

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@AmiGame
Quote:

Unfortunatly it's what help killing what's left of the Amiga Community/Spirit.

The spirit is mainly about the OS, the spirit does not relate to the "magic" of PPC/68k/toaster.

Quote:

First you won't buy any Hardware (unless it's FREE !)

So you are saying it is a disadvantage that people don't have to pay $1000 for a mainboard in order to have something running at the speed of a $200 x86?

Quote:

then you will use Gnucleus, Sharezea, etc... to download AOS4 for free using the argument that you already payed for an OS (windblows) when buying your windtell machine !

What a funny reasoning. First, x86 is a platform that does not necessarily have to run Windows or have to be bundled with Windows. Second, look at Zeta which has been bought by over 100.000 people already. Could that maybe give you a hint on what OS4 potential on x86 could look like? Or are you honestly saying that there will be more sales when OS4 is bundled with expensive custom PPC hardware (provided that it will be released someday)? Just look around you, isn't the current OS4 situation telling you something?
This "piracy on x86" argument is just so flawed.

Quote:

Isn't it WinUAE and AROS not good enough for you then ?

Irrelevant, since they don't resemble OS4.

Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 10:11 AM.

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@Zylesea

I voted no because it's not going to happen.

@fatman2021

I wouldn't buy one especially for OS4, but if OS4 would be available for x86 I'd give it a try on one of my pcs. I do not care too much on which cpu it does run, as long as the runing experience is good.
Anyway this question is quite hypothetical...

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@smithy

Unfortunatly it's what help killing what's left of the Amiga Community/Spirit.
First you won't buy any Hardware (unless it's FREE !), then you will use Gnucleus, Sharezea, etc... to download AOS4 for free using the argument that you already payed for an OS (windblows) when buying your windtell machine !

Isn't it WinUAE and AROS not good enough for you then ?

Jerry

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- A1XE-G4 up and runing with:
512MB Ram / 200GB and 80GB HardDisks on Sii0680.
AOS4 Final Update / AmiZilla 0.1 Alpha

Yes yes yes. I've already got a perfectly good PC that's faster, cheaper than any planned new "Amiga" and I don't see why I should be forced to buy another computer just for one OS.

So I'm giving OS4 a miss until/unless a PC version appears (or any OS4-only hardware is very very very cheap).

Last edited by smithy on 18-May-2006 at 09:12 AM.