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Samwel
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 0:24:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 7-Apr-2004 Posts: 3404
From: Sweden | | |
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| @hatschi
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The applications are not emulated. Better make yourself familiar with the concept.
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You don't stop do you? Why do you belittle people with other POV's than you?
I know perfectly well what OS4Emu does so please no more comments like that please. If you noticed I wrote "emulated/wrapped", meaning emulated 68k and wrapped OS4 PPC code.
Btw "useless" is of course a POV, my POV. What I mean by "useless" is regarding to how much time it would take to make it compared to recompiling or port. Native software is also much easier to control regarding bugs._________________ /Harry
[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case
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Samwel
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 0:48:31
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Joined: 7-Apr-2004 Posts: 3404
From: Sweden | | |
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| @hatschi
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Going through this again and again possibly makes sense since there are still so many misconceptions about OS4emu/MOSemu ("illegal!!1", "emulates applications" "they want it because OS4 is so great!!!1" "it's only for taunting!!!1").
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*One* user thinks it's illegal. Probably means immoral but that's not up to me to defend as I don't know if he means that or not.
*Who* has stated that OS4Emu emulates OS4? It has ALWAYS been said that it's a wrapper. What are you getting at?
The "...OS4 is so great" comment was a joke. But that probably eluded you.
If you visit MorphZone or likeminded sites sometimes you'll notice what actual MorphOS users says about OS4Emu. Taunting is the closest word I could find why it has been done. Possibly for Itix own "enjoyment" also. They actually think that it's nice to have it (because it stirs things up in in "red camp" some said) but it has NO USE because (as some users state) OS4 has no software they would want. Developers can't use it for testing software. So what use does it have for them (MorphOS users)?
Last edited by Samwel on 28-Sep-2006 at 12:49 AM.
_________________ /Harry
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 6:29:27
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Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @Nuder_Try
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Nuder_Try wrote: I, for one, would like to see it, as I like to run as many OSs as possible, so the ability to run an alternate OS's software would be good. I would, of course, prefer PPC MacOS or Linux....
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So do I..._________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 6:36:29
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @polka.
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polka. wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga ... By the way, it's
Itix instead of Itrix why instead of way with instead of whit
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Yes - it would help us non-native english speakers/writers a lot to understand what's being talked about, if you'd care more about correct spelling..._________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 6:47:59
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Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @yoodoo2
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yoodoo2 wrote: We don't need it. ...
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1) Dont tell me what I need and what not. You're not in the position to do so...
2) If you don't need it, just don't use it..._________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:20:24
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @Samwel
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Samwel wrote: ... I'm a OS4 user and DON'T want MOSEmu for OS4.
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Then simply don't use it. Period. Quote:
Samwel wrote: ... Code real applications instead. ...
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Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so..._________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:25:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @Chip
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Chip wrote: @hatschi ... now we are lacking of manpower.
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How about using brainpower instead? (couldn't resist - quickly running away now) _________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Samwel
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:27:08
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Joined: 7-Apr-2004 Posts: 3404
From: Sweden | | |
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| @Dandy
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Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so...
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You're funny, did you know that?
Please don't cut small pieces of what I write. I didn't TELL anyone what to do. Read it again. In context.
_________________ /Harry
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:49:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @Samwel
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Samwel wrote: @hatschi ... Native software is also much easier to control regarding bugs.
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So you say its just a question of how lazy the *developer* is?
Bu I'm no developer - I'm just a user. Try to see it from a *users* POV...
_________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Crumb
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:44:35
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-Mar-2003 Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State) | | |
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| @itix
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It is not possible to create fully working MOSEmu. I know this MOSEmu from sg2 worked but there are few Exec calls which are very difficult to do. One of them is NewRawDoFmt(). Like its name suggests it is not difficult to reproduce in a wrapper but way it is called makes it very tricky. This function is SysV ABI call (means, not callable from 68k) and it is part of Exec jump table. It probably doesnt say much to you but those having knowledge to internals of MorphOS library calling mechanism should know why this call cant be emulated in MOSEmu... |
I guess that we should believe Itix as he knows how MorphOS and AmigaOS4 work internally very deeply...
so the real reason there's no MOSemu is because OS4 isn't technically capable of emulating it (it may work with very simple apps thought...)_________________ The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ |
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Dandy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:52:21
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Joined: 24-Mar-2003 Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany | | |
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| @Samwel
Quote:
Samwel wrote: @Dandy
Quote:
Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so...
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You're funny, did you know that?
Please don't cut small pieces of what I write. I didn't TELL anyone what to do. Read it again. In context.
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Hey - again you're trying to tell me what I have to to do (or not to do in this case)! Are you aware you sounded like you used the imperative in the initial post? - Just the exclamation mark was missing!_________________ Ciao
Dandy __________________________________________ If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein) |
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Bobsonsirjonny
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:58:11
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 Posts: 2880
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Crumb
It should be easier in theory to emulate MOS on OS4.. apart from OS4 still needs some of the 3D stuff etc in order for any MOS wrapper to point MOS apps to.
Things are heating up in here? Are we to expect a Flame War? Blues seeing Red?
Please prove me wrong.. Last edited by Bobsonsirjonny on 28-Sep-2006 at 08:58 AM.
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Chip
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 9:33:01
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Cult Member |
Joined: 4-Mar-2005 Posts: 574
From: Budapest, Hungary | | |
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| @Crumb
At least itix should know, nothing is impossible. IMHO your conlcusion was the aim of his statement.
Anyway, if something differs between the operating systems or missing from the OS, the wrapper should implement it.
And therefore this is not true: "so the real reason there's no MOSemu is because OS4 isn't technically capable of emulating it "
The reason was written down several times. If you ignore them, it's your problem, but don't spread such a BAD conclusion.
IMHO Last edited by Chip on 28-Sep-2006 at 09:33 AM.
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itix
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 10:14:45
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Dec-2004 Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world | | |
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| @Chip, @crumb
MOSEmu can have all functions from MOS implemented and OS4Emu can have all functions from OS4 implemented. Writing wrappers is never problem. MOSEmu just cant trap certain Exec functions called directly through ExecBase, while OS4 is easier because of its interfaces.
Internal designs and implementations are not important at all. _________________ Amiga Developer Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook |
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Crumb
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 10:21:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-Mar-2003 Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State) | | |
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| @Chip
show me ShowGirls working on OS4 and prove me wrong _________________ The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ |
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Fransexy
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 10:28:05
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Joined: 8-Jun-2004 Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain | | |
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COBRA
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 10:33:07
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Super Member |
Joined: 26-Apr-2004 Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand | | |
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| @itix
So, what does a MOS-native program which calls that particular exec function actually do, which you cannot handle by patching a vector to a wrapper routine into the correct place of the exec jumptable? |
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Chip
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 11:01:46
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Cult Member |
Joined: 4-Mar-2005 Posts: 574
From: Budapest, Hungary | | |
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| @itix
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MOSEmu just cant trap certain Exec functions called directly through ExecBase, while OS4 is easier because of its interfaces. |
Hmm... And ChainQ wrote this to me some posts earlier (#42) in this thread:
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There's a company in the computer industry, which we all dislike, and which is well known from such practices, cutting interoperability at everywhere possible, forcing developers to use their solutions, defining their own standard variants, to make developers harder to support other systems than theirs... Guess the name. Congratulations that you're proud about doing the same... |
After that itix wrote this in post #112:
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It is not possible to create fully working MOSEmu. I know this MOSEmu from sg2 worked but there are few Exec calls which are very difficult to do. One of them is NewRawDoFmt(). Like its name suggests it is not difficult to reproduce in a wrapper but way it is called makes it very tricky. This function is SysV ABI call (means, not callable from 68k) and it is part of Exec jump table. It probably doesnt say much to you but those having knowledge to internals of MorphOS library calling mechanism should know why this call cant be emulated in MOSEmu... |
Now I see ChainQ's point!!! Thanks!
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itix
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 15:08:49
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Dec-2004 Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world | | |
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| @COBRA
Because I talk better in asm than in english here is little example how NewRawDoFmt() call is done:
lis 9,SysBase@ha -> load SysBase to r9 lwz 11,SysBase@l(9) lwz 0,-922(11) -> NewRawDoFmt() is at offset -922 mtlr 0 -> move to link register blrl -> jump
Since SysBase is inherited from AbsExecBase how one patches ExecBase without tossing 68k programs? There are more similar new SysV ABI functions and they might overlap with OS3.5/3.9 extensions or go beyond lib_NegSize allocated for Exec. Tricky job.
_________________ Amiga Developer Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook |
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falemagn
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Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why... Posted on 28-Sep-2006 16:55:47
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Super Member |
Joined: 24-Nov-2003 Posts: 1126
From: Italy | | |
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| @itix
You could make exec.library return a different base for MOS programs than for AOS4 programs, a base which you'd be free to patch at your will, of course. _________________ “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” ~~ Henry Ford |
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