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   /  Amiga OS4 Software
      /  I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
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Samwel 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 1:24:57
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@hatschi

Quote:

The applications are not emulated. Better make yourself familiar with the concept.


You don't stop do you? Why do you belittle people with other POV's than you?

I know perfectly well what OS4Emu does so please no more comments like that please. If you noticed I wrote "emulated/wrapped", meaning emulated 68k and
wrapped OS4 PPC code.

Btw "useless" is of course a POV, my POV. What I mean by "useless" is regarding
to how much time it would take to make it compared to recompiling or port.
Native software is also much easier to control regarding bugs.

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Samwel 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 1:48:31
#122 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@hatschi

Quote:

Going through this again and again possibly makes sense since there are still so many misconceptions about OS4emu/MOSemu ("illegal!!1", "emulates applications" "they want it because OS4 is so great!!!1" "it's only for taunting!!!1").


*One* user thinks it's illegal. Probably means immoral but that's not up to me to
defend as I don't know if he means that or not.

*Who* has stated that OS4Emu emulates OS4? It has ALWAYS been said that it's
a wrapper. What are you getting at?

The "...OS4 is so great" comment was a joke. But that probably eluded you.

If you visit MorphZone or likeminded sites sometimes you'll notice what actual
MorphOS users says about OS4Emu. Taunting is the closest word I could find
why it has been done. Possibly for Itix own "enjoyment" also.
They actually think that it's nice to have it (because it stirs things up in in "red camp"
some said) but it has NO USE because (as some users state) OS4 has no software
they would want. Developers can't use it for testing software. So what use does it
have for them (MorphOS users)?

Last edited by Samwel on 28-Sep-2006 at 01:49 AM.

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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:29:27
#123 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Nuder_Try

Quote:

Nuder_Try wrote:
I, for one, would like to see it, as I like to run as many OSs as possible, so the ability to run an alternate OS's software would be good. I would, of course, prefer PPC MacOS or Linux....

So do I...

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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:36:29
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@polka.

Quote:

polka. wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga
...
By the way, it's

Itix instead of Itrix
why instead of way
with instead of whit

Yes - it would help us non-native english speakers/writers a lot to understand what's being talked about, if you'd care more about correct spelling...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 7:47:59
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@yoodoo2

Quote:

yoodoo2 wrote:
We don't need it.
...

1) Dont tell me what I need and what not. You're not in the position to do so...

2) If you don't need it, just don't use it...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:20:24
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:
...
I'm a OS4 user and DON'T want MOSEmu for OS4.

Then simply don't use it.
Period.
Quote:

Samwel wrote:
...
Code real applications instead.
...

Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so...

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:25:14
#127 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Chip

Quote:

Chip wrote:
@hatschi
...
now we are lacking of manpower.

How about using brainpower instead?
(couldn't resist - quickly running away now)

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Samwel 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:27:08
#128 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@Dandy

Quote:

Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so...


You're funny, did you know that?

Please don't cut small pieces of what I write. I didn't TELL anyone what to do.
Read it again. In context.

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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 8:49:51
#129 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:
@hatschi
...
Native software is also much easier to control regarding bugs.

So you say its just a question of how lazy the *developer* is?

Bu I'm no developer - I'm just a user.
Try to see it from a *users* POV...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Crumb 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 9:44:35
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@itix

Quote:
It is not possible to create fully working MOSEmu. I know this MOSEmu from sg2 worked but there are few Exec calls which are very difficult to do. One of them is NewRawDoFmt(). Like its name suggests it is not difficult to reproduce in a wrapper but way it is called makes it very tricky. This function is SysV ABI call (means, not callable from 68k) and it is part of Exec jump table. It probably doesnt say much to you but those having knowledge to internals of MorphOS library calling mechanism should know why this call cant be emulated in MOSEmu...


I guess that we should believe Itix as he knows how MorphOS and AmigaOS4 work internally very deeply...

so the real reason there's no MOSemu is because OS4 isn't technically capable of emulating it (it may work with very simple apps thought...)

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Dandy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 9:52:21
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:

Don't tell others what to do - you're simply not in the position to do so...


You're funny, did you know that?

Please don't cut small pieces of what I write. I didn't TELL anyone what to do.
Read it again. In context.

Hey - again you're trying to tell me what I have to to do (or not to do in this case)!

Are you aware you sounded like you used the imperative in the initial post? - Just the exclamation mark was missing!

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 9:58:11
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@Crumb

It should be easier in theory to emulate MOS on OS4.. apart from OS4 still needs some of the 3D stuff etc in order for any MOS wrapper to point MOS apps to.

Things are heating up in here? Are we to expect a Flame War? Blues seeing Red?

Please prove me wrong..

Last edited by Bobsonsirjonny on 28-Sep-2006 at 09:58 AM.

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Chip 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 10:33:01
#133 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2005
Posts: 574
From: Budapest, Hungary

@Crumb

At least itix should know, nothing is impossible.
IMHO your conlcusion was the aim of his statement.

Anyway, if something differs between the operating systems or missing from the OS, the wrapper should implement it.

And therefore this is not true: "so the real reason there's no MOSemu is because OS4 isn't technically capable of emulating it "

The reason was written down several times. If you ignore them, it's your problem, but don't spread such a BAD conclusion.

IMHO

Last edited by Chip on 28-Sep-2006 at 10:33 AM.

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itix 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 11:14:45
#134 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Chip, @crumb

MOSEmu can have all functions from MOS implemented and OS4Emu can have all functions from OS4 implemented. Writing wrappers is never problem. MOSEmu just cant trap certain Exec functions called directly through ExecBase, while OS4 is easier because of its interfaces.

Internal designs and implementations are not important at all.

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Crumb 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 11:21:27
#135 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Chip

show me ShowGirls working on OS4 and prove me wrong

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Fransexy 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 11:28:05
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Crumb

Quote:

Crumb wrote:
@Chip

show me ShowGirls working on OS4 and prove me wrong


Better Show Girls working on me
Sorry, i could not resist

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COBRA 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 11:33:07
#137 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@itix

So, what does a MOS-native program which calls that particular exec function actually do, which you cannot handle by patching a vector to a wrapper routine into the correct place of the exec jumptable?

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Chip 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 12:01:46
#138 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2005
Posts: 574
From: Budapest, Hungary

@itix

Quote:
MOSEmu just cant trap certain Exec functions called directly through ExecBase, while OS4 is easier because of its interfaces.


Hmm... And ChainQ wrote this to me some posts earlier (#42) in this thread:

Quote:
There's a company in the computer industry, which we all dislike, and which is well known from such practices, cutting interoperability at everywhere possible, forcing developers to use their solutions, defining their own standard variants, to make developers harder to support other systems than theirs... Guess the name. Congratulations that you're proud about doing the same...


After that itix wrote this in post #112:

Quote:
It is not possible to create fully working MOSEmu. I know this MOSEmu from sg2 worked but there are few Exec calls which are very difficult to do. One of them is NewRawDoFmt(). Like its name suggests it is not difficult to reproduce in a wrapper but way it is called makes it very tricky. This function is SysV ABI call (means, not callable from 68k) and it is part of Exec jump table. It probably doesnt say much to you but those having knowledge to internals of MorphOS library calling mechanism should know why this call cant be emulated in MOSEmu...


Now I see ChainQ's point!!! Thanks!

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itix 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 16:08:49
#139 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@COBRA

Because I talk better in asm than in english here is little example how NewRawDoFmt() call is done:

lis 9,SysBase@ha -> load SysBase to r9
lwz 11,SysBase@l(9)
lwz 0,-922(11) -> NewRawDoFmt() is at offset -922
mtlr 0 -> move to link register
blrl -> jump

Since SysBase is inherited from AbsExecBase how one patches ExecBase without tossing 68k programs? There are more similar new SysV ABI functions and they might overlap with OS3.5/3.9 extensions or go beyond lib_NegSize allocated for Exec. Tricky job.

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falemagn 
Re: I think we need MOS emu...And I will explain you why...
Posted on 28-Sep-2006 17:55:47
#140 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@itix

You could make exec.library return a different base for MOS programs than for AOS4 programs, a base which you'd be free to patch at your will, of course.

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