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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 22:09:47
#201 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@billt

Quote:

Interesting way to state the question, which comes across as "Apart from people who need/want AmigaOS4, who needs/wants AmigaOS4?" That's a well crafted question. Make the only valid answer to the question as it is worded to be "nobody", by excluding any other possible answer. I see. Cool.


Given that it's obvious that people around here want AOS4 and that there are too few of them to be able to sustain a fruitful market, I've excluded them since the beginning. If you paid attention to what I've written so far, you would have noticed that yourself.

So the answer is nobody, then. Nobody wants and needs AOS4 outside of the few people around here.

Now tell me, is this a viable business? But that's even besides the point, the original point was that the continuous delays only made the situation worse, that the market has shrunk more with the passing days and that if they had a sellable product 5 years ago (as it appears) they should have sold it, rather than keep improving upon it secretely until it would get perfect: it never will and the more time passes the less people will be interested in it.

Quote:

But Smiths Aerospace seems to have been interested in a component of OS4.


No, Smiths Aerospace was allegedly interested in a 3d driver for the ATI Radeon, the fact that driver was originally written for AmigaOS4 was certainly of no interest to Smiths Aerospace.

No one here is questioning that some code written for AmigaOS4 may be reusable elsewhere, what is being talked about is whether AmigaOS4 as a whole is of interest to anyone but a restricted group of fans. Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp, or am I unable to make myself understood?

Quote:

If it ever does find a system vendor that can make it profitable to everyone involved, that's be very very cool.


"If it ever"? I'd assume that by getting involved in a project like this you've got to have pretty damn clear ideas about whether and when you're going to make a profit from your work. Or did they just knock at AmigaInc's door, one day, and said "hey pal, listen to me, what about if you give me exclusive rights to AmigaOS3.x source code while I waste some years pondering what to do with it?"

Quote:

If that never happens, most of the developers will still be happy if us few fanatics living around here enjoy it. Just because you or I don't know where zillions of dollars will come from doesn't mean that Hyperion hasn't thought about this problem.


Sure, we don't know, that's what questions are for, right? Well, I happen to have questioned that very thing and got as answer "nah, won't tell you".

Quote:

Just because we don't know the results of such deliberations publically doesn't mean those deliberations never happened.


It doesn't mean to opposite either, though, and if facts mean anything at all, the future doesn't look rosy.

Speculation comes for free, however, and we're therefore free to speculate. I'm unable to find any use of AmigaOS4 - as it is - outside of this "market" of fans (no offence intended to anyone, this is just how I see things). Can you?

Quote:

Why does the fact that Hyperion would like to charge money for OS4 bother you? Why does it bother you that Hyperion decided to get into this business of wanting to make money from OS4?


Nothing bothers me, and I can't see where you've drawn that impression from. It all started with Rogue mocking someone for having forecast that AmigaOS4 wouldn't run on the AmigaONE - something that didn't come true - and me replying that some others have forecast that AmigaOS4 wouldn't see the light of the day for the years to come - something that did come true - to which, quite predictably, he replied "so what?". And then I went on explaining "so what".

You see, nothing bothers me, I'm here simply to discuss things, like everyone else should (given this is a forum).

Quote:

If you think it's a terrible money-losing mistake, allow them the right to make that mistake.


And since when am I in the power to disallow anyone to do anything around here? What kind of reasoning is that?

Quote:

Allow the developers to make their own mistakes. Allow me to waste as much money as I see fit on something terribly rediculous if I choose to do so. I don't need to be saved. Maybe Hyperion and their developers don't want or need to be saved from financial doom either.


I'm simply speaking my mind, allow me to do that, given this is proper place to do it. Thank you.

_________________
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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

~~ Henry Ford

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 23:29:48
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
What is unbelievable is that you make this childish remark in a thread where it is publically evident how I don't have any trouble handling the "pressure" of your quotes.

There's nothing close to 'pressure' in the quotes I made, they serve only as a context so that the one who read it doesn't have to go to the bother of going backwards to the same post, namely in flat view where AW system doesn't even shows who you're answering or which post. But, if you don't have any trouble could you please explain the reason behind this reaction:

Quote:
when checking the correctness of the links in my post I noticed that the quote "assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have" belongs to my original question to takemehomegrandma! What game are you playing? You skipped my reply to you *altogether* and resorted to a trick to re-state your point! That's incredible and unrespectful. That's pure trolling.


being this the post you refer:
Quote:
I assumed you were questioning what Could Genesi do for Amiga OS 4 team, namely on how... and again I think you pose the very same question when referring on 'assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have'

Genesi could help them bringing more hardware... but namely it could help the users or wanna be users... but who cares about them anyway..

Quote:
Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team (assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have)?


Just to make things clear, I start by doubting if your question was as simples as it seemed, then I say I really am very positive that I understood it correctly, then, and because I cannot understand your question in any other way I gave you the only answar in the only way I saw fit, on how Genesi could *eventually* help AmigaOS 4 team, emphasis on (Amiga OS4 Team, not Amiga Inc)... you don't accept it, still that's fine with me, I goes on by saying that who is loosing is the community and suddenly from the middle of nowhere I got this gem:
Quote:
Please keep the innuendoes to yourself.
And please note that this is not a port-AOS4-to-EFIKA / EFIKA-can-save-AOS4 thread.

You seem to have a great deal of preconception about me, even without me refering to EFIKA or such in this thread you still makes such assumption, I bet you have no problem in 'interact[ing] with others in this and other places without any major language barrier' but somewhat all of this vanishes when you're talking with me...

Last edited by pixie on 18-Dec-2006 at 11:44 PM.

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Richi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 23:40:06
#203 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2004
Posts: 158
From: Unknown

@falemagn


falemagn wrote:
@Richi

Quote:

Honestly I'm only curious, if everything is so dark and lost: why are you still here?

Quote:

Curiosity, mostly. What do you do when you're at a movie teatre, walk out of the room before the movie ends?

No, but i don't talk aloud disturbing actors while they're playing and i'm just part of the audience.
Quote:

There are so many forums around the world with many users really happy with their Windows and X86 systems, you would feel at home very quickly.

Quote:

I don't feel homeless, if that's your concern.

I believe, though, that questioning my reasons to be here is a bit besides the point, isn't it? This is a reality check thread, after all: is there anything you disagree with, about what I've written? If so, please do point out the flaws in my reasoning, if not: why are you still here?

I don't need/ have to point out anything. Put it in this way:why after all these years you haven't be able to post a constructive post?!
Since i'm not the first one who asks it you, don't bother to answer just think about it.

Last edited by Richi on 18-Dec-2006 at 11:48 PM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 23:50:45
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Samwel

Quote:
But I understand what you mean aswell. Yes, Genesi's hardware would of course help. That would be a way for them to help OS4.

Yes
Quote:
H-J seems to have no problem with Genesi hardware (as has been told in this thread), so one could conclude that this is either a Amiga Inc. / Hyperion vs. Genesi problem.
But according to statements by H-J Hyperion seems unlikely to be the cause.

Let's hope for the better, or at least that another company with good PPC hardware that don't cost an arm and a leg appears with good set of features on par with what mainstream PC has to offer... after all it's Christmas

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 23:53:45
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@IonMane

Quote:
Amiga Inc. also wants to ensure thier name is not attached to crap products and hence thier license scheme. This does not mean any of us agree with it, like it, or think this is the way to go about it.

It made perfect sense 7 years ago, but now the crap product one want to avoid had become the company itself... IMO, that is...

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 23:58:45
#206 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@opi

Quote:
Analogy (quick, call Analogy Police): I have a bass guitar. It's so-so. I sucks at it. I call it hobby. I buy stuff and try to learn some new tricks (Damn you, Flea!). Someone skilled could just get my bass and play something nice. So, I have a tool that helps me with a hobby but in hands of pro it can be used to do Real Stuff. (Linux, QNX, Solaris, MacOSX and Windows can be used like that)

No problem sir, you seem to have all your documentation in order and hadn't resorted to car analogies, you may go now, proceed with caution...

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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 0:03:13
#207 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@pixie

Quote:
It made perfect sense 7 years ago, but now the crap product one want to avoid had become the company itself... IMO, that is...


Well perhaps. Still it is thier product so they can do what they like with it. Does not mean we have to AGREE with what they are doing and/or how. I have never agreed or liked they way they went about it, but like I said, perhaps now it is too late or too difficult to change.....I don't know.

As for the name, well people said the same thing about ATARI yet a large company decided to use it for brand recognition.........

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Samwel 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 0:47:07
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@falemagn

Quote:

Nothing bothers me, and I can't see where you've drawn that impression from. It all started with Rogue mocking someone for having forecast that AmigaOS4 wouldn't run on the AmigaONE - something that didn't come true - and me replying that some others have forecast that AmigaOS4 wouldn't see the light of the day for the years to come - something that did come true - to which, quite predictably, he replied "so what?". And then I went on explaining "so what".

You see, nothing bothers me, I'm here simply to discuss things, like everyone else should (given this is a forum).


Sorry but this is not true. Rogue bothers you! This is very evident if one follows your posting history on AW.
Why the need to "correct" Rogue if he's "mocking" someone? Why not "correct" everyone? Is see alot of mocking going on here at AW, it's not that those posts are lacking.

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Samwel 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 1:35:54
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@Kronos

Quote:

Quote:

Samwel wrote:

As I said, and the court felt the same it seems, get economic compensation for loss or actually getting the product in the contract yes, but demanding another product instead than the original contract was for?!? No court will allow that.


If the product in question offers something similar to the one orginaly in the contract, sure.....

Just like if one piece of HW fails within warranty (Amiga companies excluded) and they just don't have any 2GHz P4 or 60GB HD, do you really think you get the next bigger model just because they want to be nice ?? No, they do it because every judge would order them to if such a case was brought to court.

Now, we don't know what kind of DE was orginally described in that contract, and how far it would have been from what OS4 is now, but it was clearly worth a try (and therefore not stupid), and the judge decided that AInc should try again to fullfill the orginal contract (which they can't). If the same case comes back to the judge cos AInc failed to comply he might be more willing to follow BBRV's thread of argumentation.


Warranty issues are not the same as a contract between companies.
Besides if no comparable products are available then you get your money back with warranty issues.

If they can't fulfill their contract then yes, Genesi should sue Amiga Inc. for economic compensation for breach of contract. One thing though, how will Genesi prove they have lost money on not having AmigaDE on their hardware?
Btw AmigaOS4 is *NOT* a similar product. You can easily get information on what AmigaDE was supposed to be or is on the net.

If I remember correctly Genesi was supposed to give Amiga Inc. docs to their hardware, but according to Garry Hare (answer from the interview) this was never done so Amiga Inc. concluded that this was the end of the contract. Didn't Genesi have 30 days to do so?
If the judge change his ruling then fine, all the better for the Amiga community. But I seriously doubt it.

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Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 4:31:19
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2303
From: Unknown

@Samwel

"Warranty" just means that company X promised you their product would atleast work for Y years.
If it's failing earlier company X failed to comply with the contract and have to compensate you.

Wether money-back or next-better-product is to be done depends on the details of that contract (terms of buisness) and local legistlation. Doesn't matter wether you are a private man or a company.

It's quite clear that what AInc promised (in public) in 2000/1 was more a full blown OS than a medicore engine for games on WinCE-based PDAs, and it's also quite clear that AInc isn't able to pay even a small finacial compensation.

Bout Garry Hare, that guys been lying from day 1 right till the end (plus showing that he didn't even knew the difference between DE and OS4), so I wouldn't put any value to it's words.

Bout Genesi not shipping any HW, care to share an actually working address for AInc ? I doubt that the drawer in Madison-avenue would be big enough

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amygdala 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 7:01:38
#211 ]
Member
Joined: 3-Apr-2003
Posts: 19
From: Unknown

Richi Quote:

Honestly I'm only curious, if everything is so dark and lost: why are you still here?

falemagn Quote:

Curiosity, mostly. What do you do when you're at a movie teatre, walk out of the room before the movie ends?

Richi Quote:

No, but i don't talk aloud disturbing actors while they're playing and i'm just part of the audience.

falemagn Quote:

There are so many forums around the world with many users really happy with their Windows and X86 systems, you would feel at home very quickly.

Richi Quote:

I don't feel homeless, if that's your concern.
falemagn [quote]
I believe, though, that questioning my reasons to be here is a bit besides the point, isn't it? This is a reality check thread, after all: is there anything you disagree with, about what I've written? If so, please do point out the flaws in my reasoning, if not: why are you still here?

Richi Quote:

I don't need/ have to point out anything. Put it in this way:why after all these years you haven't be able to post a constructive post?!
Since i'm not the first one who asks it you, don't bother to answer just think about it.


For the most part, well put, Richi. I particularly like your live theatre metaphor (though, in fairness, falemagn was talking about movies. I think it still works, though).

I agree that falemagn makes little attempt to ever be constructive ( at least in a socially-conventional way). People usually say reassuring supportive or understanding things while they are delivering criticism. In my daily visits here I observe that falemagn does not pursue such nicities. That doesn't appear to be his way. He generally attacks rather than supports, is pessimistic rather than optimistic, and arrogant rather than humble. He consistently argues that he is merely being logical and implies that those who don't hold his perspective on some particular point are blind or stupid or foolish. He appears to take some particular pleasure in telling a person that they are wrong about something. The pattern is quite consistent. However, he is more technically savvy than most, has well-reasoned opinions and is effective at expressing them. I do remember in one of the Carl Sassenrath threads here recently, falemagn made some constructive, insightful and (dare I say) almost positive remarks.

I, for one, value skeptics and realists like falemagn for their desire to keep things clear and on track. When such people are at their best, they point out flawed logic and inconsistency in such a way that it helps us avoid self-aggrandizing delusions. When they are at their worst, they just sound nitpicky and arrogant for no good reason. But I also value the hopers and the dreamers despite their more frequent lack of clarity, consistency and logic. Their deep capacity for commitment and passion (their heart) is inspiring and necessary for anything of worth to be undertaken and accomplished. I'm convinced that any vibrant community requires the presence and dynamic interaction between both of these personality types and everything inbetwen.

So, in that spirit, I'm glad falemagn is still curious enough to keep watching this particular movie/play even though he sometimes distractingly points out missed lines to the dismay of the actors. Sometimes when I read his comments I can't help but think that he yearns to be one of the principles in the production rather than a member of the audience. I imagine him auditioning but not being chosen for the part of the wise and experienced advisor or the spurned boy genius. I'm convinced he feels he could have done a better job if he'd only had the chance.

And (not that it's relevant or anything), but perhaps he could have.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 8:14:46
#212 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Samwel

Quote:

Sorry but this is not true.


"This" being what? You've quoted a lot of text up there.

Quote:

Rogue bothers you!


Uh, he certainly doesn't. Don't know him enough to say that he, as a person, bothers me.

Quote:

This is very evident if one follows your posting history on AW.


In which way? Don't make accusations and then say "it's very evident", explain what you mean.

Quote:

Why the need to "correct" Rogue if he's "mocking" someone? Why not "correct" everyone? Is see alot of mocking going on here at AW, it's not that those posts are lacking.


Because I don't care if a couple of you guys throw mud at each other, but someone in the position of Rogue should know better, and the fact he often doesn't prompts me make him notice that. What's the problem anyway? Does it bother you that I point out falacies in Rogues reasonings? Why so?

Besides, I'm correctin you too, with this post: does this mean you bother me?

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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Leo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 8:20:37
#213 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

And now, look how far we have come.

Are we that far ? Today OS4 could still be made running on top of MorphOS (OS4 Emu already runs most of OS4 apps, which are almost all already available for MorphOS anyway).

Now if you could answer to that: what's the point of having two AmigaOS ?

Leo.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 8:55:08
#214 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@amygdala

First, it's kind of amusing how almost every thread where I dare criticize Rogue transforms itself in a discussion about me and my agenda. The funny thing is that, if what most of you "critics of my being" say were right, this would be my preferred outcome, for I'd be reaching the ultimate goal: have people talk about me!

Luckily, that's not the case, I couldn't care less who's being talked about, be that person even me, the only thing I care is what is being talked about, the true matter of things.

I'll leave out most of your comment and focus only on what I believe is the crux of the issue.

Quote:

Sometimes when I read his comments I can't help but think that he yearns to be one of the principles in the production rather than a member of the audience.


And there lies the problem. This is not the first time someone says he noticed that, someone even went as far as saying that I'm basically "jealous", to which I can only reply with a big laughter. I'll explain what's the real situation, instead. Perhaps that'll make you laugh, but such is life and I, honestly, don't care.

The truth is, I am one of the "principles in the production", although the production I'm talking about is not AmigaOS4's, and I'm certainly not part of the audience, like I've explicitely said so many times before. If you know me well enough as you say you do, you should know what I'm talking about.

However, not being part of the audience is not enough to prompt me to intervene at "higher levels" and not play, instead, the role of the humble spectator. If you looked at my posting history on this site, you'd see that most of the time I stay silent, or participate to generic technical discussions to give advices, or participate to discussions totally unrelated to Amiga.

Sometimes, though, I also participate in threads like this (which may have been the majority of threads as of late, hence your perception about me, or perhaps you simply don't follow the other kind of threads I'm in) and this happens when who should know better starts throwing mud at who doesn't deserve it and spreading half-thruts or even blatant lies.

More specifically, the reason I intervene in threads like this is twofold.

First, I always try to put myself in others shoes and I know for certain that were I at the place of Rogue and his brother I would never react the way he does. In fact, I've been at his place many times and have never reacted that way. I don't believe I'm exceptional in this, therefore I believe he should know better.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I probably participate to such discussions for the same reasons for which I'm an activist about many kind of social issues - real life social issues, that is: I hate injustices and constantly work to make the truth come afloat.

Quote:

I imagine him auditioning but not being chosen for the part of the wise and experienced advisor or the spurned boy genius. I'm convinced he feels he could have done a better job if he'd only had the chance.


Eh eh... this is the proof you don't know me at all, or you'd know that I already have a way, may ways, to boost my ego and prove how great I'm to the crowd, but I don't need to do that and whether or not I would have done a better job with AmigaOS4 is totally irrelevant: someone already did do better, imho, about 5 years ago.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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Yo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 9:05:39
#215 ]
Team Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2004
Posts: 2043
From: France, on an ADSL line

@thread

/me sits and watches and eats popcorn.....

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(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

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abalaban 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 9:20:13
#216 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1114
From: France

@Leo

Quote:
Are we that far ? Today OS4 could still be made running on top of MorphOS.


Yes and what is the point here ? Would you say MacOSX did not "get so far" just because you could run it "on top" of Linux ? I don't see the point here...

Quote:
Now if you could answer to that: what's the point of having two AmigaOS ?


Exactly the same as having YellowDog, Debian, RedHat, Mandrake etc. Linux distributions some prefer one, some prefer another... You prefer MOS, I prefer AOS4 don't see any problem here ! And just because I prefer AOS4 (which BTW is the official aknowledged Amiga OS followup) I won't tell your choice is bad, that it should not survive and that you should drop it in favor of mine... Please, don't do the reverse either...

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AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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Samwel 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 11:01:32
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@falemagn

Btw why did you split up my three first sentences? You must have understood they where meant in context of each other?

Quote:

In which way? Don't make accusations and then say "it's very evident", explain what you mean.


Do you seriously think I'm going to put links here to everytime you have talked to Rogue???
I think you remember your own "conversations" very well.


Quote:

Because I don't care if a couple of you guys throw mud at each other, but someone in the position of Rogue should know better, and the fact he often doesn't prompts me make him notice that. What's the problem anyway? Does it bother you that I point out falacies in Rogues reasonings? Why so?


Position? He's a programmer. You are aswell. Why should we let you behave worse then?
Please enlighten us..

I think you're nitpicking on Rogue's posts, nothing else.

Quote:

Besides, I'm correctin you too, with this post: does this mean you bother me?


Correcting me?! How so? Seems I am bothering you.

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Leo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 12:18:05
#218 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Exactly the same as having YellowDog, Debian, RedHat, Mandrake etc. Linux distributions some prefer one, some prefer another... You prefer MOS, I prefer AOS4 don't see any problem here ! And just because I prefer AOS4 (which BTW is the official aknowledged Amiga OS followup) I won't tell your choice is bad, that it should not survive and that you should drop it in favor of mine... Please, don't do the reverse either...

No. All are *sharing* the *same* code (the Linux kernel, the OS applications,...).

The problem is that AmigaOS4 & MorphOS aren't sharing anything (but AROS & some other small parts). The effort is *duplicated*. Does RedHat rewrites the USB stack when compared with Debian ? etc...

Every Linux distribution is a derivation of the other one, but specialized into something. But the word is share...

Leo.

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Benji 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 13:21:28
#219 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

@billt

Quote:
Still, if that's true, it's still going to be easier/quicker than an OS4 port/merge. Intent/DE already works with the Linux API, it does not already work with the AmigaOS4 API. Which do you think is quicker to do?

Port intent from Linux-x86 to Linux-PPC, port DE mods from Linux-x86 to Linux-PPC
OR
Port intent from x86 to AmigaOS4-PPC, port DE mods from x86 to AmigaOS4-PPC


So what if it takes years?

The benefits to OS4 would be much greater - a JVM etc - and that would help AI too - the original idea was to get "Classic" users "into" and coding for the "DE/AA" side of things...

The stumbling block appears to be that Intent hasnt been ported to PPC, which certain people are well aware of now (but maybe werent when they signed contracts) - therefore are grabbing at OS4.

I believe that AI dont see a future for OS4 without DE/AA - and thats probably why they arent in any rush...


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OldFart 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 19-Dec-2006 13:22:22
#220 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3023
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Yo

Quote:
/me sits and watches and eats popcorn.....


I truly admire the subtle way you make clear this thread is scrutinized with more then a casual glance!

Enjoy your popcorn.

OldFart

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