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      /  Now that OS 4 is final...
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Yabba 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 21:43:40
#81 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
Well see, I dont care if some isnt happy with what I do, I do it for myself, and I am proud of it.


Great and that is how it should be. However, if someone feels insulted when someone is bad talking the work he/she is doing, wouldn't you be offended too? If not, GREAT for you, then you have grown thicker skin than most of us.

Quote:
So, whats the deal? You can't take criticism or what? I do not understand? Those are only Forum posts, its not like I attack you personally or call you or shout at you.


Personally I wouldn't say that calling someone a clueless software developer that lies to you is criticism. That is a personal attack at the very basic level.
And repeating the same question that has been asked and deferred 10 times before is at the verge of being very annoying. I didn't say you did that, but many people have done that and then sort of surprised wondered why people didn't care to answer. After that, there is the usual demand of an answer otherwise I will bad talk you crap. Then you go. Do you see now why I ask people to tone down what they think is simple criticism but turns out to be insults?

rgds,
Stefan

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:20:07
#82 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Yabba

Quote:
I wont speak for Rouge of course, but it is exactly people like you who had me abandon work on IBrowse for extended periods of time. Many times! Or perhaps, I should say post like yours. Because my only view of you is through your posts, but I am pretty sure you are a good guy after all. I just have a huge problem with the way some people express their feelings.


Well, since I speak for Rogue I can say that I feel exactly the same. We work as much as we can, and still get postings like this, it makes you just want to throw down everything and look for another job, really.

I know lots of people just say things like "don't listen to these people", but heck that is difficult.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:21:48
#83 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@nicholas

Quote:
He has some crappy PCMCIA CDROM interface and the 68k driver works flawlessly on his machine.


Things will work as long as DMA is not involved. Well, things will *mostly* work; sometimes it's just not possible.

Quote:
I do remember one of the twins saying that the installer was the main thing missing from the Classic version.


I think I said something in the line of "an installer is the one of the most obvious things missing".

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:23:08
#84 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@elatour

Quote:
Always spoken with the utmoust restraint and professionalism I see.


Just trying to get level.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:25:59
#85 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@elatour

Quote:
Unfortunately, some individuals just don't believe in the old saying that the customer is always right,


Uh, I'm sorry, but if a customer tells you that you are an idiot, is he right then too? I don't think so. If insults are part of the payment, I'll gladly skip it, thank you.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:30:35
#86 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
I think that many people have seen the Users passion to the System, and use it to make faulty promises, knowing that the Users will always stay, nomatter what happens.


Let me be the first to congratulate you on these wise words. Yes, we're just making promises to keep you around, for whatever reason.

Quote:
I don't know any system, that after 10 years of zero development, still has that many users.


What exactly is your problem? You have bought the system with AmigaOS 3.x, and the world will not end if you have to wait three more months for OS 4 or not. If you where an AmigaOne owner that bought the system specifically for OS 4 and not getting it, I could understand your complaints. But you have paid your money to Commodore, Escom, or Gateway, and Phase 5, not to Hyperion, so stop acting like we owe you anything. We don't. We said we are doing OS 4 for the classics, we said we are working on it, and as Yabba already pointed out, we are working as fast as we can, but that is it. You do not loose *anything*

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:38:34
#87 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:
What kind of respect do these people deserve for having constantly broken promises and missed deadlines?


*sighs*

I think I pointed out that a press release, announcement, or statement is not a promise, but exactly that - a press release, announcement or statement. You should know quite well that there are always factors that influence this.

I never asked to be respected for anything, matter of fact I could hardly care less what people think of me personally. Matter of fact is I get a lot of dirty little pervert jokes made about me on such intellectual community sites like MooBunny e.a, so sometimes I really need to swallow hard not to just break out and pour a stream of f-words, s-words and other niceties all over the place.

I just ask to be treated as respectfully as the others want to be treated. If they don't, they get the same treatment from me.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:40:12
#88 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@VooDoo

Quote:
the best news what I read today :) woho..meep meep :)


Don't get your hopes too high yet, this is an intention but I cannot say whether it works out or not. You know what a liar I am.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 22:43:23
#89 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

And now, look at this.

Someone asks a simple question, I give a simple answer, and there you have five pages of postings already with me trying to justify myself.

I don't really know whether I should laugh or weep. And people start to wonder why the HELL I considered just getting my account deleted...

If people ask for statements from us, maybe now you can understand why everybody is reluctant...

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Kicko 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 23:02:19
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

@Rogue

Without you we wouldn't have os4. I don't know for others but you are what makes me stay on this platform. There is always some people that will complain and disturb. I try to not use my time reading their text but sometimes you try to justify yourself and like you say there pops up 5 pages.

Keep on doing the things your best on, os4 :)


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Gleng 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 23:20:42
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Posts: 1071
From: Blighty

@Rogue

Your, your brother's, and Hyperion's continuing effort and support in the face of (from where I'm sitting) seemingly insurmountable odds, is one of the only things that's kept me waiting and interested for so long.

Keep up the good work. Hopefully one day soon, I'll be able to use and enjoy it too.

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Curty 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 23:21:42
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Dec-2003
Posts: 1202
From: South Wales. UK

@Rogue

Chin up, your doing a great job there are some nob heads about that just like to moan about everything!!!!.
I for one am so grateful for what the OS4 team has done, I love every second of using OS4 so much that Im turning into a geek!!
Its also insipred me to learn programming C as I want to give something back to the community and Ive picked things up quickly, anyway,
Keep working hard
Curtis


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A1XE G4 800mhz,512mb,Radeon9200,SonyDRU-510A and 800a,ESI Juli@, Sil680, WiFi.

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umisef 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 0:06:44
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1677
From: Melbourne, Australia

@amipal

Quote:
Please name me one Amiga product that's arrived on time as announced.


Amithlon. Despite going through a change of publisher between announcement at AmiWest 01 and actual release, it hit the market about a week before the date announced by Bill McEwen.

Of course, that might have had a lot to do with my attitude of "first build the product, then announce it", resulting in a situation where the announcement featured McBill handing Kermit a laptop (with software which he didn't even know about a week before, and had probably only installed on that laptop the day before. A laptop I had never seen or even heard about until listening to the webcast....).

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umisef 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 0:42:17
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1677
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Rogue

Quote:
Someone asks a simple question, I give a simple answer, and there you have five pages of postings already with me trying to justify myself.


No, you have five pages of people debating whether Hyperion releasing OS4 for the classics should be viewed as a generous gift worthy of many we-are-not-worthy prostrations, or whether Hyperion should be held to the same standards as any other company trying to sell something --- which would probably include showing some sympathy, heck, gratitude for their potential customers still hanging on through a 5 year delay (those potential customers were, after all, told that the product they want to spend their money on would be available in Q1/02. Then they were told that it would be available before OS4/A1).

In short, you have 5 pages of discussion about whether AmigaOS4 is a hobby project, or a commercial OS. If it is a hobby project, then the people doing it are of course perfectly within their rights to do whatever they want, because it's their hobby and their time. If, on the other hand, Hyperion intends to maintain OS4 as a commercial OS (which would necessarily include the possibility of a commercially-driven decision to just throw it all in because they just can't see a way to break even), then one would expect that intention to show in all their OS4 dealings.

Discussing the appropriateness of your postings is but one aspect of this, and it is just dealing with a symptom. Go back a couple of months, and you will find the same core discussion --- would it make sense to release OS4 for classics. And I suspect underlying even that discussion is a general unease, caused by the realisation that OS4 can hardly be called a raging commercial sucess so far ("hundreds of thousands of Euros" invested, probably less than one-hundred-thousand Euros earned), that the plans to conquer the embedded space seem to have failed, and that as a commercial endeavour, AmigaOS4 is simply not sustainable.

Which all goes to future perspective. It's great that OS4/A1 has finally made it to some level of finality --- but if you were an OS4/A1 user, who has just been handed "the final update", wouldn't you be a tad worried about the future? All but the most rabid fanbois will readily admit (as you do) that OS4 in its current state cannot deliver the same level of usefulness as most other OSs out there. And while a lot of that problem lies in application-space, some of it is certainly due to the OS itself. And the future will bring new innovations in the marketplace, which will require OS support to use; Similarly, even today, in some areas the peripherals supported by OS4 drivers are so obsolete as to be hard to find. Thus, nice as OS4.0, the final update, may be, even for the thousand lucky users, further development of it is crucial for it to stay a viable choice for their computing needs.

So it does matter to people whether OS4 is going to be developed further. People wonder, people fret, people hope. And it comes out in discussions like these. It's got nothing to do with being rude or not, and everything with anxiety about commercial viability (and legal entanglements, and even sometimes technical soundness). I suspect you could be as rude (or poignant, or "to the point", or honest, or whatever you want to call it) as you wanted to be, and nobody would care, if OS4 was a thriving, healthy product with regular releases, a well-defined development path, and a history of meeting (at least approximately) the announced timelines.

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Rit 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 1:00:31
#95 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2005
Posts: 138
From: Unknown

@Rogue

My advice would be to stay away from these forums, they are full of so many idiots. They don't, in any way, represent the community that i used to know from back in the good old Amiga days. Enough said.


Was browsing though this site a little while ago and it appears that i'm not the only guy who is excited about OS4 and think you've done a pretty good job with it so far. (Not that i've got to use it yet though! lol)

Link

Last edited by Rit on 12-Jan-2007 at 01:21 AM.

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Tomas 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 1:42:16
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Rogue
I think most people apprechiate your work. I dont think you should take yourself near, as long as the majority apprechiate it.

And why would anyone bitch about lack of hardware or release if they did not like the product? The fact is that most people are really anxious to get their hands on OS4 themself and are frustrated because of the current situation.

Last edited by Tomas on 12-Jan-2007 at 01:48 AM.

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madtrekker 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 2:00:38
#97 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 271
From: Unknown

@umisef

Quote:
No, you have five pages of people debating whether Hyperion releasing OS4 for the classics should be viewed as a generous gift worthy of many we-are-not-worthy prostrations, or whether Hyperion should be held to the same standards as any other company trying to sell something --- which would probably include showing some sympathy, heck, gratitude for their potential customers still hanging on through a 5 year delay (those potential customers were, after all, told that the product they want to spend their money on would be available in Q1/02. Then they were told that it would be available before OS4/A1).


Isn't it sort of obvious though that the situation with the Amiga is different from any typical commercial set-up?

It's certainly clear that none of the people involved in either the hardware or software side are doing this because they believe it is the best way to make lots of money - they are doing it because they believe in the Amiga. Which is not to say they don't want to make money, but they have taken a much higher risk than any normal business would, as a result of their passion for the Amiga.

In that context, why shouldn't we be grateful for whatever we do get? In any normal situation the Amiga would have died completely when Escom collapsed. That should have been it. The fact that development on the system still continues is nothing short of amazing.

You say that if OS4 is a commercial OS, then Hyperion should have sympathy with their customers for the 5 year delay in releasing it. Windows is a commercial OS (last time I checked). How long has Vista been delayed? And how many of it's originally promised features have actually made it to the final version? I don't see much sympathy for their customers from Microsoft. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Hyperion use Microsoft as their role model, but it does demonstrate that things don't always go as planned even if you do have a multi-million dollar budget!

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elatour 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 2:16:23
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rogue

Quote:
Uh, I'm sorry, but if a customer tells you that you are an idiot, is he right then too? I don't think so. If insults are part of the payment, I'll gladly skip it, thank you.

In the 2 years that I have been on this site, I have yet to see anyone dare to call you an idiot. In any case, stating something like this about you would say more about their level of intelligence than yours. You may sometimes FEEL like this is what some people are calling you, but I have yet to get this from reading any posts I have read on AW.NET. On the other hand, I most certainly have seen some questionable replies coming from you to some very innocent posts, on more than one occasion from people that have just joined this site or have just recently come back to the platform.

If you want to stay in business, you take the high road at all times with your clients/prospective clients, swallow your pride and act professionally at all times. If a client were to call me an idiot because they are not getting what they want from me, I would say something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way, but unfortunately, I'm afraid that I cannot/it is not possible to accomodate your requirements, etc." In cases of persistent abuse and where any possible compromise or resolution has not been possible, then once you have stated your case - this only needs to be done once - then you simply ignore them. It's that simple.

I've been dealing with clients in a training/integration/consulting and pre-sales capacity for the past 15 years and in that time I have had some REALLY interesting customers...although none that have yet to call me an idiot...but I have always tried my utmost to try to first acknowledge an irate customer's concerns, try to resolve the problem if at all possible through suggested compromises if necessary/possible, but NEVER by escalating the conflict by replying to their their insults with more insults, all the while trying to remain professional at all times. This has gone a long way to earning myself a god rep and getting repeat and on-going business as well as new business primarily through word of mouth by the client to other clients.

Last edited by elatour on 12-Jan-2007 at 02:30 AM.
Last edited by elatour on 12-Jan-2007 at 02:28 AM.
Last edited by elatour on 12-Jan-2007 at 02:25 AM.
Last edited by elatour on 12-Jan-2007 at 02:23 AM.

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BobW 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 2:48:21
#99 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Apr-2004
Posts: 275
From: Central, NY USA

@elatour

Rogue's first comment on this thread was as follows:

Quote:
@Dandy

The classic version just got a priority bump. Right now, the plan is to release it as soon as possible, *hopefully* within 1Q2007, although it will depend on a few factors naturally.


Now thats a completely reasonable response and I think good news. And it was immediately followed by this:

Quote:
That "few" factors being new Hardware of course. Guess we'll have to wait forever then. I do not and never will understand why you software guys believe that Hardware falls from heaven. There is no reason to develop Hardware, if there is nothing available to run it with.


It's easy to see how this would piss someone off. Of course to some here Rogue/Hyperion are not allowed to fight back. They are just supposed to sit back and take it.

And then the usual suspects show up to pick away at Rogue. Honestly it's getting old.

Quote:
I've been dealing with clients in a training/integration/consulting and pre-sales capacity for the past 15 years and in that time I have had some REALLY interesting customers...although none that have yet to call me an idiot...but I have always tried my utmost to try to first acknowledge an irate customer's concerns, try to resolve the problem if at all possible through suggested compromises if necessary/possible, but NEVER by escalating the conflict by replying to their their insults with more insults, all the while trying to remain professional at all times. This has gone a long way to earning myself a god rep and getting repeat and on-going business as well as new business primarily through word of mouth by the client to other clients.


I highly doubt you have ever taken the kind of abuse that Rogue and Hyperion take on this site and others. The reason is simple. In real life where people are face to face most people have at least some restraint. On Forums anything goes.

_________________
Micro A1 866 Mhz and AmigaOS 4.1
PowerMac G4 1.4 Ghz and MorphOS 2.7

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Toni 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 12-Jan-2007 5:35:24
#100 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Apr-2005
Posts: 29
From: Switzerland

@BobW

My english skills dont allow me deep diskussions, ... but i think you get the points.

@Rogue & OS4-Team

Thanks for OS4 final, your work is much appreciated.

Last edited by Toni on 12-Jan-2007 at 05:39 AM.

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