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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  shocking OS4 news from Rogue
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PosterThread
adiaux 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:03:24
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@jahc

Quote:

jahc wrote:
This isnt directed at any one in particular, but the whole "your side said blah blah blah about amigaos/morphos 3 years ago" thing is kinda silly..


No, it was silly three years ago (or more really); reconnecting the current to the past is merely kind of funny! People back then actually did an exodus in order to not having to answer to these arguments, and now they use the very same arguments themselves!

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ChrisH 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:06:02
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@COBRA
What you say may be true (I think it is), but if you had said it several years ago you would have been lynched by Rogue & most OS4 supporters. It really sounds like Rogue is intending to design a whole new "Amiga like" OS from scratch - except we already have Haiku, Syllable, and maybe even Amiga Inc's OS5. Why yet another one?

To be honest, it sounds suspiciously like Hyperion think they will loose their right to develop OS4 (beyond 4.0), so they are now planning to start again from scratch, without relying on Amiga Inc's IP. That's just a guess, but the timing seems incredibly ominous.

Last edited by ChrisH on 15-Aug-2007 at 01:18 PM.

_________________
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I can usually be found on www.Amigans.net (my favourite Amiga forum).
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

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Rogue 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:14:39
#63 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

As I said, I am not talking about a sandbox. I am talking about a virtual environment, basically the same thing like Mach running BSD4.3 and OSF/1 at the same time.

And FWIW, I stated this intent in the first document I ever wrote on AmigaOS, somewhere in 1999/2000.

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ChrisH 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:14:44
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Rogue who said Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people feel the urge to get a comment I made and drag it to another site. If you wanted to discuss the matter, you could have done it over at Amigans instead of this

Your comment is news, so I really don't see the problem with mentioning it on an AMIGA site. But so you know: I did not post on Amigans.net, because every attempt I made at posting something upset the moderator(s), so I don't see the point in commenting on controversial topics there.

Frankly, I did not want this to turn into a stupid Red VS Blue, but I can't help what other people post.

Also, please re-read what I wrote - I am not criticising your move, just shocked about your sudden u-turn in design philosophy. What you are doing makes sense, it's just a major surprise to me that you are doing it.

_________________
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I can usually be found on www.Amigans.net (my favourite Amiga forum).
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

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pixie 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:16:26
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2688
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Aminicle

Yes, shapeshifter and fusion both had done it. Life was good!

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xeron 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:21:06
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
And FWIW, I stated this intent in the first document I ever wrote on AmigaOS, somewhere in 1999/2000.


Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
Also, please re-read what I wrote - I am not criticising your move, just shocked about your sudden u-turn in design philosophy.


Yeah. Massive U-Turn.

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Playstation Network ID: xeron6

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Seer 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:41:18
#67 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@ChrisH / thread

Locking thread for moderator review.

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jorkany 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 13:46:32
#68 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 919
From: Space Coast

@Rogue
Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people feel the urge to get a comment I made and drag it to another site. If you wanted to discuss the matter, you could have done it over at Amigans instead of this, but I guess that you are afraid that the ####ting brigade doesn't have that much leverage on amigans.net so you need to bring it here.

Not everybody has, wants, or can get an account on amigans.net. You choose to post in an environment with restrictive write access, but the problem is everybody still has read access - therefore you don't get to choose where discussion takes place.

Quote:
FWIW, I am not saying that AmigaOS 4.0 is a dead end design. However, everybody with half a brain cell will agree that to evolve the current design, you need to do something about the way certain things are handled right now.

Apple did the same thing. They invented the Classic environment for binary compatibility, Carbon for source code compatibility, and Cocoa for the new stuff. This is very similar to what we want to do:

And development for OS9 really skyrocketed after they did that! Oh wait a minute....no, it didn't. OS9 pretty much died development-wise within a couple of years after OS X was released.

The reasons Apple moved to a completely new OS made sense, even though at the time it seemed they were taking a big risk. But then, Apple had some things which Hyperion doesn't have: a big enough user base that even if a few OS9 diehards jumped ship, it wouldn't matter in the long term; and plans for a OS attractive enough to bring in new users. For Apple, OS X was a bump between an old, cracking two-lane road headed no-place and a supermodern highway that could lead just about anywhere. For Hyperion, which is still on a two-lane road headed basically no-place, a new OS that relegates OS4 to "classic" status leads to - what?

It's not like there are many OS4 developers out there, I see plenty of people who can't seem to wrap their heads around OS4 development but use it for just dipping their toe in as hobbyists. Now Hyperion wants to shove those people into the sandbox while Hyperion moves on to convincing the few remanining AmigaOne owners to buy into a new system. Which raises the question of, what has the last six years been about? If this has been Hyperion's plan all along, then why all the dorking around with the now-considered-disposable OS4?

Whenever talk of porting OS4 to x86 comes up, one of the recurring arguments is: "It will take another five years to redevelop OS4!" How long will this new OS take to develop? Do you think people are willing to wait however long it is? Even if you shove it out the door in three months (lol), where is the impetus for the few remaining AmigaOne owners to buy it and wait for new software to be developed? It's not like Hyperion is actually supportive or even really very in touch with the OS4 developers out there:
LINK

Then there is the hurdle of, you actually have OS4 users who are against memory protection. Heck, you have people who see *ANY* feature beyond what was in AmigaOS as "bloat". How do you plan to make them happy? Do they just get shoved into the sandbox along with the people who have been struggling to get started on OS4 development the last few years?

Sorry to go on and on, as you all know I could give a rat's a$$ about OS4. I just find it extremely amusing that Hyperion is even considering this without any impelling reason, and a miniscule user base which is getting smaller all the time. It will be interesting to see those who have argued against memory protection, virtualization, "wasting" memory, "boated OS fetures", etc. etc. - it will be interesting to see those people justify to themselves in public that bringing all this to the table while shoving OS4 into a dark corner is suddenly a "great thing! banana banana". Just for the entertainment value alone, I applaud Hyperion on this move!

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COBRA 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 14:11:10
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@ChrisH

Quote:
What you say may be true (I think it is), but if you had said it several years ago you would have been lynched by Rogue & most OS4 supporters.


I have had discussions about this with OS4 developers years ago and everyone knew the limitations of the current AmigaOS design and that such changes will have to be made at some point if the OS is to compete with other mainstream OS'es, but the plan for OS4.0 was to have a PPC-native AmigaOS run as soon as possible, going directly with a completely new system/API would have been a too big jump and would have taken considerably longer to get a first version released to AmigaOne owners.

Quote:
To be honest, it sounds suspiciously like Hyperion think they will loose their right to develop OS4 (beyond 4.0), so they are now planning to start again from scratch, without relying on Amiga Inc's IP.


Rogue was not talking about starting from scratch, and the timing is right because OS4 reached a state that it contains pretty much everything planned so far (and even many things not originally planned), thus it is time to consider the future direction of the development of the OS. There was also mention of a new graphic subsystem to overcome the limitations of the current graphic system design. This does not mean that the current OS4.0 is abandoned, I'm sure there will be further updates and fixes available for it for a long time. But if you want to construct conspiracy theories, I'll leave you to it

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