@Tigger

Quote:

portions of the 4.x IP that is based on use of there 3.x IP

Not sure you could say "owned outright" there. Co-owned is what I'd say.

However, you missed one set of IP --- all the work done for the Arctic port. Owned lock, stock and barrel by AI, as per the Arctic contract. Which is most relevant to the question of "taintedness" of ExecSG --- seeing as the CPU in SAM apparently is a close relative of the 405 in the Arctic PDA, any ExecSG supporting SAM is likely to contain code which (a) is owned by Amiga Inc, and (b) was never licensed to Hyperion.

And that's the *current* Amiga Inc. No transfers, no insolvencies, just plain work-for-hire. So even if Hyperion were to win all over the place, and were to be granted their free perpetual license from the 2001 contract --- releasing OS4 for the SAM440 would still almost certainly result in yet another lawsuit --- and one which Hyperion has essentially no chance of winning.

@1Mouse

Quote:

In my eyes all the work has been undertaken by others.

But that's true all around. Hyperion hasn't actually coded anything, and ACube hasn't actually designed a motherboard. Those things were all done by contractors, so if credit is given to the ones contracting out, then the same credit needs to be given to Amiga Inc for contracting out stuff.

@umisef

Quote:

However, you missed one set of IP --- all the work done for the Arctic port. Owned lock, stock and barrel by AI, as per the Arctic contract.

Care to show us where in the Arctic contract does it say that the work the Friedens do on it becomes KMOS's IP?

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @Tigger Quote: portions of the 4.x IP that is based on use of there 3.x IP Not sure you could say "owned outright" there. Co-owned is what I'd say.

I rewrote my original version and implied AI more ownership then I intended.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @umisef Quote: However, you missed one set of IP --- all the work done for the Arctic port. Owned lock, stock and barrel by AI, as per the Arctic contract. Care to show us where in the Arctic contract does it say that the work the Friedens do on it becomes KMOS's IP?

Section 2.05.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@COBRA

Quote:

Care to show us where in the Arctic contract does it say that the work the Friedens do on it becomes KMOS's IP?

In 2.05, it says "KMOS shall own the Work".
The Definitions include "'Work' means the software development necessary in order for AmigaOS 4.0 to boot and operate on the Arctic for demonstration purposes as set out in Annex I hereof".
The Recitals state "Whereas Hyperion shall contract with Hans-Joerg Frieden and Thomas Frieden collectively to carry out this work"

So, the work is to be done by paid subcontractors, in a work-for-hire setup. The work shall then be owned by the ones who paid for it. Not that unusual, really.

Assuming the bills were paid (McBill stated they were, Hyperion has never questioned it, *and* the contract has a pay-first-work-afterwards provision, so the work having been done suggests the bills were paid), *that* part of the Friedens' work is most certainly owned by KMOS/Amiga Inc.

@AmigaPhil

Quote:

However, what I see is that most of the valuable informations we (the Amiga community) can have about Amiga today and in the future is from the OS4 developpers (who, most of them, work with Hyperion). Hyperion is actually doing and delivering something. They have honored most if not all of their promises. Whereas Amiga Inc. only shows up from time to time to announce an announcement about a bright future we (will) never see.

It depends on your opinion of what a bright future might be. As it stands Amiga have some games running on several Microsoft OS with the Amiga name slapped onto it and now are runnign old Amiga games on UAE on the same setup, as far as I can tell. Then they have this idea for a new OS or dymanic software layer that also runs on Microsoft and/or PC's. Which has nothing to do with the Amiga at all, including AmigaOS, but which they are marketing as the next AmigaOS and the replacement for the real AmigaOS.

Right now the only real part of Amiga left is AmigaOS4. That's where the interest lies. And I don't see Amiga having any interest in it except for issuing out licenses and making a small buck just for the sake of it.

So, without AmigaOS4 being developed and hardware for it to work on, of which we have seen a few likely contenders including one in the Amiga page, I don't see any bright future in what Amiga is trying to do.

For a long time now, Amiga the company hasn't been in charge of developing the real Amiga, that task was given to third parties a long time ago and that's how it is now. Amiga, the Inc. just seems to be a thorn in our side.

@eniacfoa

Quote:

I came back to the amiga world armed only with rhetoric from www.amiga.com haha, not good.

Yeah, I just looked. You mean they have ported those Amiga games to Windows? Yeah you can see how that supports AmigaOS. Where's the AmigaOS4 version?!?!

@Hypex

itec, kmos and amiga inc have been trying to get os4 for almost 5 years now, and still have not, so why would they produce apps to help a company they feel is holding their property hostage?

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@Derfs

Quote:

itec, kmos and amiga inc have been trying to get os4 for almost 5 years now, and still have not, so why would they produce apps to help a company they feel is holding their property hostage?

To support the existing Amiga community. I wonder why they do want it. Surely it goes against their business plan of taking over x86.

AmigaOS4 hasn't been in stable hands from the start. Infact since 3.1 AmigaOS hasn't been in stable hands. H&P locked out OS3.5 & OS3.9 from Amiga, which had their own issues, and the OS did not have full versions of software. Nor are all said to be fully legal. So Amiga, Inc. didn't even have the source for 3.9 to begin with so it could be ported to 4.0. IIRC H&P were meant to to port it first, then got upset over something. Until going over to x86 and treading on other peoples toes. Then there is the AmigaOS4 x86 that never got released, for all intents and purposes might as be called AmigaDE SDK, since the basic idea was the same IIRC.

So, AmigaOS4 is big mess, it does't even support everything that 3.9 had. Parts of it are backdated to 3.1 and re-inventing the 3.9 wheel. I am surprised I haven't heard Hyperion or who ever claim they could not port 4.0 in time because they did not have all the proper sources from which is was meant to be ported from. Did Amiga sue H&P? Was this done at all?

Once again history repeats. Amiga should own and develop AmigaOS. But, H&P stole OS3.9. Now Hyperion have stole OS4. Is it time we move on now and forget about the Amiga? Sometimes I feel that way.

Last edited by Hypex on 21-Jan-2008 at 05:38 AM.

@Hypex

Quote:

Is it time we move on now and forget about the Amiga?

Only if by that you mean AROS and/or MorphOS.

@Bit7

Quote:

Only if by that you mean AROS and/or MorphOS.

No I meant all together. Forgetting about OS4, Amiga xOS, emulators, the lot. And accepting computers as they are now. Maybe remembering Commodore because everyone else does and the Amiga is rather unknown to some. For some people the Amiga is a machine that was as good as the first PC with a two colour screen and the memory of a C64. Ignorance, I tell you,

@damocles

Quote:

If AI wins, Hyperion has to pay for AI's lawyers and court costs. Not going to be a pretty sight at all if that happens.

Under US law I think they each have to pay their own lawyers' fees. It is in parts of Europe that the loser of a civil action has to pay the winner's fees.

Their are some circumstances where lawyers or clients in US courts who egregiously break the rules of the court can be ordered to pay the other sides costs (plaintif or defendant), but I cannot see signs of such behaviour in this case. Not that I am looking that closely.

While I am in a pontificating mood I think I will opine that neither side (or do I mean none of the many sides?) in this case has real financial backing. I predict that all plaintifs and defendants will lose in this case and will be fatally damaged.

I am rooting for Hyperion Entertainment because they supplied and continue to supply goods for my money. I am concerned that the goods are developer debt-tainted. AI took my $50 and gave me an unsolicited T-shirt and five years of empty and broken promises. I wish them an interesting and short life.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @1Mouse ... As for Hyperion. I really would love for people to stop thinking Hyperion did a good job, because they/he/Evert didnt.

Hmmm - let me think - I bought an OS that Hyperion delivered (OS4 for classic).

AInc cannot be the ones that delivered it, as - as youself are repeatedly stating - they are still waiting for OS4 to be delivered to them.

So - as far as I'm concerned - yes, Hyperion did a good job...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: The OS is very very late,

Why did it take AInc so long to notice it?
Didn't they fulfil their contractual obligation for inspection?

The contract states:
"2.02 Timeline. Hyperion shall use best efforts to ensure that Amiga OS 4.0 is ready for release before march 1, 2002.
...
2.04 Records and Inspection. During the term of this Agreement, the AmigaOne Partners shall deliver to Amiga bi-monthly reports within thirty (30) after the end of ..."

Quote:

Tigger wrote: the developers arent paid,

claims Tigger, as of 21 Jan 2008, without any evidence...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: and Hyperions contract has been cancelled.

Yes - by a company that claims not to be a party/successor to the 2001 contract, but nevertheless dares to cancel a contract based on §6.02 of this very contract...


Quote:

Tigger wrote: Noone at Hyperion wrote a line of code,

Equally noone at AInc wrote a line of code (for OS 4.0)...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: so the none code issues is what we should credit Hyperion with

In my book it is more the inspection of the progress we should credit Hyperion for - something, that AInc were actully contractually bound to...

Quote:

Tigger wrote: and the non-code issues have not been an achievment in my book.

That's right - AInc did nothing apart from making boast announcements.
They didn't write a single line of code for OS4 and obviously they didn't fullfill their contractual obligation for inspection - nothing that anybody would call an achievement...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @Spectre660 Which means that we'll probably see a repeat of the interminable Washington case, but this time in New York, with perhaps some minor modifications to the paperwork that gets submitted (after all, it's the same people, the same thing they're fighting over, etc). The ITEC case was deliberately separated from the Amiga Inc case, and it's quite possible that the reason was to drag things out as long as possible. Don't expect anything close to a resolution this year.

Once the NY case gets going, I expect it to end sooner because the case itself is smaller, much more simple. They signed a contract, took money and have not delivered - ITEC, They are not the legal successor to AI.W and tricked us (the 2003 contract says nothing about "successor" etc.). Hyperion has an up hill battle here. Even if Hyperion wins against Amino and AI they can loose to ITEC and its all for not. Why, because if ITEC wins they don't own the OS even if they win against the others. They sold it. . .

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

@royleith

Quote:

Under US law I think they each have to pay their own lawyers' fees. It is in parts of Europe that the loser of a civil action has to pay the winner's fees.

Correct, unless of course it's specified in the agreement/contract that the loser has to pay lawyer and court fees. Guess what, both contracts Hyperion signed have that agreement that the losing side has to pay the winner's lawyer and court fees. Hyperion loses even a single court case, he's got some rather ugly lawyer fees to pay beyond his own. Which won't help much paying the software developers.

Dammy

_________________
Dammy

@wolfe

Quote:

Once the NY case gets going, I expect it to end sooner because the case itself is smaller, much more simple. They signed a contract, took money and have not delivered - ITEC, They are not the legal successor to AI.W and tricked us (the 2003 contract says nothing about "successor" etc.). Hyperion has an up hill battle here. Even if Hyperion wins against Amino and AI they can loose to ITEC and its all for not. Why, because if ITEC wins they don't own the OS even if they win against the others. They sold it. . .

Which is why some of us have been saying from the start, the outcome is pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Dammy

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Dammy

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: Hmmm - let me think - I bought an OS that Hyperion delivered (OS4 for classic).

You bought software that Hyperion likely doesnt have a license to sell, did you say "Pieces of Eight, Pieces of Eight" while you did it?

Quote:

So - as far as I'm concerned - yes, Hyperion did a good job...

If you think delivering a 6 month effort over 5 years late is a good job, you have much lower standards then I do.

Quote:

Quote: The OS is very very late, Why did it take AInc so long to notice it? Didn't they fulfil their contractual obligation for inspection? The contract states: "2.02 Timeline. Hyperion shall use best efforts to ensure that Amiga OS 4.0 is ready for release before march 1, 2002. ... 2.04 Records and Inspection. During the term of this Agreement, the AmigaOne Partners shall deliver to Amiga bi-monthly reports within thirty (30) after the end of ..."

You apparently don't understand that those inspections are to check sales vs royalties paid, they have nothing to do with seeing how Hyperion is doing on getting the software done. And AI has been asking for the software for years as we have seen from the court documents.

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Noone at Hyperion wrote a line of code,

Equally noone at AInc wrote a line of code (for OS 4.0)...

[/quote]

Which just proves our point, AI did as much (actually more) for OS 4.0 then Hyperion did. Stop thinking of Hyperion as this big company, its a 1 man VOF whose one man has to work elsewhere to make ends meet.

Quote:

Quote: Tigger wrote: so the none code issues is what we should credit Hyperion with In my book it is more the inspection of the progress we should credit Hyperion for - something, that AInc were actully contractually bound to...

Again, you misunderstand that entire section, that section has nothing to do with code, it has to do with people being paid royalties, at first AInc and Hyperion by Eyetech and eventually AInc being paid by Hyperion.

Quote:

That's right - AInc did nothing apart from making boast announcements. They didn't write a single line of code for OS4 and obviously they didn't fullfill their contractual obligation for inspection - nothing that anybody would call an achievement...

Again, since no Royalties have been paid from Hyperion to AI, there is no reason for an inspection by AI of Hyperions books, what exactly got you off on this tangent that makes you think the inspection clause has something to do with Code?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

If Amiga inc can find money for a $10 million sign on the side of an arena, money for lawyers... but no money to fly out to Hyperion's offices to view OS4 for themselves? Or even show up at Amiga trade shows where OS4 is being demoed?

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

Quote:

royleith wrote: AI took my $50 and gave me an unsolicited T-shirt and five years of empty and broken promises. I wish them an interesting and short life.

And the community should have taken Amiga inc to court over that...!

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!