@Dandy

No problem - no offense taken - just hoping you don't ignore my answers.

Read it, but shall not respond to it anymore as it will only go in circles anyway as with the whole thread.

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@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote: @Dandy ... The labeling is what counts, easy as that, even for the law. ...

Just one additional thought to that:

This site is labeled amigaworld.net.

I can very well remember that some people have been banned here when just mentioning "Pegasos", "MorphOS" or "AROS" - while to my best understanding those are clearly part of an amigaworld.

So if labeling really is what counts I really wonder why it wasn't applied to the site policy back then...

Last edited by Dandy on 20-Mar-2008 at 09:45 AM.

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@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @Seer ... It seems people are jumping on Dandy because that's the thing to do and that people assume that majority of people on this site assume KMOS will win just because there are 4 vocal users that say so and 2 that don't. ...

Thanks for your assistance, Lou!

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
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@Dandy

Quote:

Just one additional thought to that: This site is labeled amigaworld.net. I can very well remember that some people have been banned here when just mentioning "Pegasos", "MorphOS" or "AROS" - while to my best understanding those are clearly part of an amigaworld. So if labeling really is what counts I really wonder why it wasn't applied to the site policy back then...

I'm not commenting on the issue of what fits into an "amiga world", but I wonder why the name is being taken so literally. It's just a name. It's a possibility they might have chosen it because it rolls off the tongue nicely.. because it's catchy. It's interesting how everything gets dissected into tiny pieces on forums, even the bl**dy URL.. and yes I realise I'm guilty of taking part in the dissection now too. :)

@jahc

The name is sooo important. AmigaCity was contemplated but considered too small in scope, AmigaCountry was considered offensive to the international flavor of the community, AmigaSolarSystem was considered a little too broad at the time but may be apt now, and off course we could never consider AmigaUniverse because we just have to be able exclude someone. Hope that clears up and confusion of the name choice

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: Just one additional thought to that: This site is labeled amigaworld.net. I can very well remember that some people have been banned here when just mentioning "Pegasos", "MorphOS" or "AROS" - while to my best understanding those are clearly part of an amigaworld. So if labeling really is what counts I really wonder why it wasn't applied to the site policy back then...

This is wholly off topic, but aside from that, the site never has had a policy of banning people for mentioning the alternate Amiga operating systems and machines. People would have been warned about hijacking threads not about their favourite/preferred system or OS (and that goes both ways). Anyway, this thread is not about site policy or staff actions. We already have more than enough threads, polls and opinions on these matters.

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@Dandy

Quote:

I can very well remember that some people have been banned here when just mentioning "Pegasos", "MorphOS" or "AROS" - while to my best understanding those are clearly part of an amigaworld.

Although this is highly off-topic, I can't refrain from commenting. First of all, you just mentioned Pegasos, MorphOS and AROS, yet you have NOT been banned. How can this be, Dandy?

Secondly, strange memory you have. It's off course complete and utter non-sense that anyone would have been banned *for the sole reason* of mentioning Pegasos, MorphOS or AROS. I dare you prove otherwise, although you should probably start a new thread about it first.

Thridly, what's an Amiga world if not things specificly Amiga? You speak as if the term Amiga would be a broad term for anything you think would qualify as an Amiga rather than a trademark for a very specific set of products. Big surprise; it's Amiga™. So if you like, one could think of "amigaworld" as the world of Amiga™.

Lastly, you are free to discuss and post news related to just about any computer platform on this site and there has even been discussions about wether those discussions should be promoted on the front page or not. How could such discussions even take place if mentioning Pegasos, MorphOS or AROS would be enough to get you banned?

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@samface


Quote:

Although this is highly off-topic, I can't refrain from commenting. First of all, you just mentioned Pegasos, MorphOS and AROS, yet you have NOT been banned. How can this be, Dandy?

Past tense is the key here.



Quote:

Thridly, what's an Amiga world if not things specificly Amiga? You speak as if the term Amiga would be a broad term for anything you think would qualify as an Amiga rather than a trademark for a very specific set of products. Big surprise; it's Amiga™. So if you like, one could think of "amigaworld" as the world of Amiga™.

So in Unix world linux minix would be avoided?

edit: unix->linux

Last edited by pixie on 20-Mar-2008 at 05:16 PM.

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@samface
Quote:

Thridly, what's an Amiga world if not things specificly Amiga? You speak as if the term Amiga would be a broad term for anything you think would qualify as an Amiga rather than a trademark for a very specific set of products. Big surprise; it's Amiga™. So if you like, one could think of "amigaworld" as the world of Amiga™.

This is one reason why OS4 should be considered Amiga-like and not Amiga. Amiga Inc. is saying, via lawsuit, that Hyperion can no longer use the Amiga trademark.

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@pixie
Quote:

So in Unix world unix minix would be avoided?

Excellent illustration, pixie. In fact this IS the case in the views of some who feel that the only real Unix is that which is certified "Unix" by The Open Group (www.unix.org). However, those of us who have been around a while know that The Open Group exists because of Unix, and not the other way around. Also, consider that unless The Open Group certification is kept current, a variant of Unix can become not-Unix, at least in the eyes of The Open Group. Consider the case of IRIX.

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@samface

Quote:

You speak as if the term Amiga would be a broad term for anything you think would qualify as an Amiga rather than a trademark for a very specific set of products.

"Amiga" is to the forum users what the forum users make of it. For a few, this has to do with trademarks, for others, it just doesn't.

Quote:

Big surprise; it's Amiga™. So if you like, one could think of "amigaworld" as the world of Amiga™.

Yes, "one" could think like that. I'd wager to say that the majority thinks differently.

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@Dandy

On time when a1g3-se was published, I order one.

Later I got post from Alan (with motherboard), where he said that on time when os4 is not avail, he hopes that I found develop undr linux hopefully funny.

Later, when os4 dev pre1 was published, I was contact with Ben and he talk about developing allso.

In dev pre3, or was it dev pre2, during installation there were text box, where was something like: that is developer pre-release, go develope (or something similar).

I cant develope by the way, I was just eager to get new amiga... No-one asked or checked, if buyer is developer or not, but target was definetly devs.

elsewhere was about, that hyperion was overestimated count of developers.

Sure it was later clear, that allso normal end users buy a1 mobos, but sure they were initially and primary targetted to devs.

with all respect and so on.

@mlehto

Long time no see!

Here's the old chart on models btw:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/index.php?op=r&rev_id=67&cat_id=8

#6

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@number6

Hi librarian :)

I still sneaking around and read this site nearly daily.

this depressing court case just prevent some fun from my hobby. Anyway everyone is loosing all the time, ainc, hyperion and End users...

@jorkany

Quote:

jorkany wrote: @samface Quote: Thridly, what's an Amiga world if not things specificly Amiga? You speak as if the term Amiga would be a broad term for anything you think would qualify as an Amiga rather than a trademark for a very specific set of products. Big surprise; it's Amiga™. So if you like, one could think of "amigaworld" as the world of Amiga™. This is one reason why OS4 should be considered Amiga-like and not Amiga. Amiga Inc. is saying, via lawsuit, that Hyperion can no longer use the Amiga trademark.

No, they are saying that Amiga Inc. owns AmigaOS4, not just the trademark but also the source code, and that Hyperion can no longer develop AmigaOS4, regardless if they use the Amiga trademark or not.

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @samface So in Unix world linux minix would be avoided?

Who's speaking of avoiding anything? I'm just saying that a world of Amiga doesn't necessarily include anything you think of as Amiga-like by default. Even a "Unixworld" could be very Unix™ specific and not necessarily include Unix compatibles at all.

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@polka.

Well, fact is it IS a trademark. The word was, unless you are refering to the spanish word for a female friend, originally invented and defined by a company. For as long as I'm aware of this fact, I find it hard to redefine it as something else. I know, even trademarks can get new meanings over time with examples like how asking for a coke can get you a pepsi sometimes. I've refered to Pepsi as a cola myself many times. Although with the Amiga, I simply can't do it. I can't look at a Pegasos and say "nice Amiga". Simply because it isn't, no matter how good it is at running an AmigaOS like operating system or running classic Amiga software with the aid of emulation.

Now you are of course thinking that the AmigaOne and AmigaOS4 has the same differences to the classic Amiga. Well, think again. You have to remember what originally defined the meaning of the term Amiga and realize that the company owning the trademark is simply doing it again, ie defining the term Amiga. Some people say that this strict and correct use of the term is fanatic while I'd argue otherwise. To think of the term as something more than a trademark, like an abstract of an indestructable concept for an old computer standard or something, seems more fantatic to me.

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Although with the Amiga, I simply can't do it. I can't look at a Pegasos and say "nice Amiga". Simply because it isn't, no matter how good it is at running an AmigaOS like operating system or running classic Amiga software with the aid of emulation.

What do you know? What do you know of advertisement? You can, as long as you use it as adjective, you can pretend it to be one, as long as in the end it's well demarcated it ain't one, namely the fact that is name Pegasos and not Amiga Pegasos.


Pegasos: the new Amiga!

Pegasos: staying true to Amiga!

Quote:

Some people say that this strict and correct use of the term is fanatic while I'd argue otherwise. To think of the term as something more than a trademark, like an abstract of an indestructable concept for an old computer standard or something, seems more fantatic to me.

People stay true to their feeling that's the only dues hey have to pay for, not companies wish. I have had an Amiga, Amiga Inc can redefine what an Amiga is, and I have the right not to agree with them and therefore do not deliver them my goods as they would have nothing I saw as good. You say fanatic, but ultimately a fanatic is just a fan of a concept, you seem to be brand fanatic, which as odd as it might seem you're have every right to be.. I imagine all the good times you had spend playing with your brand, the sleepless nights thinking on what exactly the brand would mean over and over again, the time spent using your branded apps... my question to you Sammy is, do you happen to have any Amiga Inc stock or is all due to fanaticism?

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@mlehto

My take on this is that the original *intention* was to release a few hundred "mostly working" motherboards with enough of an OS for developers to start writing applications so that when the real hardware and complete OS would be made available, there would be enough modern applications available to entice Classic users and ex-amigans to buy the new system or switch to the latest version of the OS.

I don't think it even matters if the motherboards had some flaws as long as they'd work well enough to boot the system and test the applications.
The SE and XE weren't designed for end-users but the latter was marketed to the general public anyway. As a result of the XE's being sold out and the demand for cheaper HW, it was soon followed by the microA1.

I don't want to start a finger-pointing contest, but Eyetech could have sold many more machines if they had wanted to and AInc could have licensed more hw if they had wanted to. Neither did. It was their own decision, not Hyperion's.

Devs/users like myself bought the hardware with only Linux knowing they'd have to wait before they could get OS4 and we did so as early as we did to support the initiative, to help create the critical mass needed to make it succeed.
Compared to PCs it was rather costly, yet it was still cheaper than the first A1K/2K/3K/4K that came out, not even accounting for inflation.

Things didn't go according to plan, the Developer PR would have had to be released at the same time as the SE boards to serve its purpose.
Instead, by the time the first CD came out, it no longer was a developer pre-release at all but that's what it had been called since the begining and while it was still being called that, the vast majority of recipients were end-users. Many if not most developpers were already running the beta version long before that first public release anyway so I support the notion that the label became meaningless.

The plan was flawed to begin with.
Finger-pointing aside, it required a lot more time to get OS4 running on new hardware than the originally planned hw, and that delay put Eyetech in somewhat of an awkward position because they made some poor business decisions (A1 production was to expensive) and didn't have the financial resources to hang in there long enough, and in all fairness, regardless of OS4 availability their hw sold out so the delay may not have been instrumental at all. Anyway, once Eyetech dropped out of the game and AInc refused to issue HW licenses to anyone else, that put Hyperion in an awkward position too with no possibility of expanding they're potential market and revenues beyond the fixed and shrinking existing hardware base.

Some could argue that it would have taken less time to just release the dev. PR for the Classic w/PPC first but imho it made sense to target the new HW first as it was more suitable for the first target: developers.

That doesn't justify anybody's actions though, AInc clearly acted in bad faith on several occasions, but Hyperion should have done a better job at covering their own behind when circumstances changed instead of leaving the contract as-is, so that this lawsuit could not even have been started.

I don't think AInc can come up with a viable product on their own nor that Hyperion can gain enough control over the IP and trademarks to carry the Amiga as we know it into the distant future.
But the one thing they both have in commun is they still have the opportunity to turn this debacle into a win/win situation by compromising a tiny bit, or the outcome will be lose/lose as neither side has enough pieces of the puzzle to get very far on their own.


Disclaimer: the opinion expressed above is subject to change without further notiice as new events unfold and knowledge becomes available.

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@samface

Quote:

Who's speaking of avoiding anything? I'm just saying that a world of Amiga doesn't necessarily include anything you think of as Amiga-like by default. Even a "Unixworld" could be very Unix™ specific and not necessarily include Unix compatibles at all.

So why do you nag? Go create your Amiga™World, theirs ought to be a lot of brand fanatics out there. Perhaps you could reach a bigger niche and accumulate a lot of other brands also.

Then you would have a space where all other things would be forbidden but the strictest related to the brands, you know not a community driven portal but a corporate one disguised as community portal. You might as well call your Amiga™ brand master, they could sponsor your endeavor as enlighten you on the meanings of the Amiga, they seem to have lots of money to throw out, they could help you in your bickering of what a brand means or should mean to those who'd had gone to the trouble of buying it.

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