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Skyraker 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 15:36:25
#121 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2003
Posts: 823
From: Essex, UK

Why are we even talking about this?

It's not Amiga.

_________________
[quote]Amiga were also offered Amithlon before anyone else. I was the first to run it. It ROCKED HARD. I begged them to use it, we had a WINNER and could sell a bajillion of them. We owned all the rights to it! But sadly, Bill and Fleecy didn't want peopl

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Pleng 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 16:33:43
#122 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@opi

Quote:

Well, C has to have "entry point" so unless you consider #include [..] void main(){ [...] } one line, it can't be done. But that's not the point. Hello world just gives you a hint how to put stuff on stdout. This is nothing.


Even if "#include [..] void main(){ [...] }" were to be considered one line (which is pushing it), then the code is vastly more complex than the AMOS example.

Again I will reiterate that I am NOT an AMOS (or indeed any other 'game creator' BASIC) fan, and I am NOT comparing the power of AA2 to the power of any BASIC dialect. I simply refuse to accept linnar's ridiculous sentiment that "AA2 is like AMOS but mutch more easy to programming"

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 16:46:03
#123 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Pleng

I hear you. I never stated any different.

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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 16:54:46
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@GregS
I don't see the difference between REBOL being ported to platform X, and ANTIX/AA 2 being ported to platform X. Both require that platform X is supported, therefore putting REBOL on top of ANTIX would just *prevent* the REBOl developers from supporting the platforms they want, because they'd have to wait for ANTIX to support them.

REBOL is already pretty cross-platform (at least for the Core language). The only reason for running REBOL on top of ANTIX/etc would be if ANTIX supported many more platforms than REBOL currently does (or will in the near future). Probably it would make more sense to treat ANTIX as one *additional* platform that REBOL supported, then REBOL can support what platforms they like, but take advantage of ANTIX whenever they can't afford to support some wierd platform that ANTIX does support.

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 17:02:12
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@Pleng
You are being mislead, C is *not* and *never will be* as easy as BASIC, no matter how many #defines you use! There are some very simple reasons for that:

* BASIC does not (typically) require you to declare procedures or variables, you can just start using them. C always requires you put code inside procedures, and you must declare variables before first use. Personally I think C's way is better, but it is less easy for beginners.

* BASIC allows you to manipulate strings (e.g. joining two together), without worrying about allocating strings of the right size to hold the result, and without worrying about deallocating the strings you have finished with. C does, the advantage is speed & efficiency, but it is much less easy for beginners.

* BASIC typically does not require you to understand pointers, you may not even be able to use pointers, where-as it is almost unavoidable that you use them in C. Pointers are more faster & efficient, but they are also much more bug prone, and easily cause crashes, so C is less beginner friendly there too.

Overall, BASIC is easier to learn, but it teaches programming practices that will cause you problems with large programs. If you only want to write small 'toy' programs, then BASIC is probably better for you. If you hope to graduate to bigger programs, I would recommend something like C or AmigaE, even though they have a steeper learning curve.

edit: It is worth mentioning that I *have* written some big programs in a language similar to BASIC, and while it was possible, I would not recommend the experience!

Last edited by ChrisH on 18-Feb-2008 at 05:06 PM.

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Pleng 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 17:25:40
#126 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:

@Pleng
You are being mislead, C is *not* and *never will be* as easy as BASIC, no matter how many #defines you use! There are some very simple reasons for that:


Thanks Chris, but I don't feel I am being mislead :) I am refusing to accept any of this 'C is easier/can be just as easy as basic' nonsense.

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GregS 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 22:08:14
#127 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: Perth Australia

@ChrisH

I never meant to suggest that REBOL 3 becomes esclusively hosted on ANTIX/AA 2, rather that it should be one of the options.

At the moment ANTIX/AA 2 are just for games, REBOL 3 would extend them.

From Rebol's point of view, it is an extension into areas that they may not be compiling to.

For third party developers it is a different story -- one compile gains all the supported platforms -- this is very important, but productivity software requires an application environment, that REBOL 3 supplies very well and in powerful way that is NOT OS BASED.

If it is possible REBOL 3 plus Antix or AA 2 (or both) is an obvious bonus to any one that requires compiled code plus a GUI and intepreted script (which for a long time now is the direction things should have, but have not, taken).

Having the same software running on desktops, consoles, PDAs, phones and epaper devices etc.,. is critical IMHO for the future. Antix and AA 2 may not be up to the job, or they may. if either or both are up to the job, then what could be better than install-time native code compilation?

As for the Amiga end, while OS5 remains a mystery, OS4 is real enough, strip that down (I am a firm believer in minimalist OSes), making it a natural home for such applications and we may be talking about a truly portable OS (I am not suggesting the OS companent be run the same way as the apps - just portable in the normal manner).

Port the OS to this or that device regardless of CPU, and all the current apps are dead in the water. Port the OS where-ever you like an an app base made within AA2/Antix and REBOL 3 comes along with every new supported device.

That I would say is the long term future for the computing industry, how amigalike it is depends on us getting our act together rather than setting everybody in opposition to one another.

It seems criminal to me to have all these elements more or less orbiting this community, and yet they are not coming together, in fact for most of this community at this time keeping these natural alliances apart seems their only option -- which is a great pity.

AI has always had one thing going for it, it had the concept of something like the above (portable apps and a portable OS).

If I had the power, I would have OS4 stripped down of almost everything (including thr GUI system), I would be making it as small as possible, for easier porting. I would then be getting the idea behind AA 2 expanded with REBOL 3 and put the GUI system where it belongs and the application environment separated from the underlying OS.

The user now buys an app that runs on every other Hosted environment, and create an app base that would run just as well if not a little better on an Amiga stripped-down OS.

Maintaining a retro Amiga environment would not be so hard, perhaps running on PS3. But for my money there is only one path to follow in the long term.

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Zardoz 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 22:16:58
#128 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Pleng

Quote:
Thanks Chris, but I don't feel I am being mislead :) I am refusing to accept any of this 'C is easier/can be just as easy as basic' nonsense.


Depends on what you want to do really, BASIC is certainly easier to start with but I personally can't follow it, especially as code gets bigger.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 22:33:00
#129 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Pleng

I understand You completely!
For a 15 years ago I go from Basic to C. The first day I see The C I have a big shock.
What is this? This is toooo hard to me to learn!

But a few months later I programing my first program in C!
My first program
This pic shows a later version of my first program. Only the Win95 button on the top is different. It's developed in 1994. I have this to Amiga to but developed in HisoftBasic.

After 1-2 year I go back to HisoftBasic to develop some for fun. But then I have the same shock I have when I go to C 2 Years early. Have I work with this?! O, no! I close it again and I never open it more.

The C is my home!
Quote:
I do not need to do 'everything'.

Listen to me - You do!
Quote:
I was told that AA2 was easier than AMOS. This is what I am contesting.

I understand that! But in C You see what is happen. You control the code very mutch better and You come to love it, I promise! After a year (or två) You develop in C better than You do in AMOS. And the best of all, the program is mutch quicker and can developed very mutch more complex.
Quote:
For instance, I just started to learn (and have since given up)

"and have since given up" Yes, I to! But I don't give up!
Quote:
Hello world is a fair example. It took one line in AMOS

If You do it in C and in Dos:
printf("Hello world");
In Windows it is harder to do.
But You build Your own code and put in a Your own userlib. and then You use it every tim You develop. You only develop the new code.
I have a very big lib and I have but it in my site:
My lib (Name "Cover")

And now to the point:
AA2 have a own lib. This lib do very mutch of the jobb without the good with the C go lost.
Example!
Open a window:
aaOpenDisplay(200, 200, 16, "My Window", FAA_DISPLAY_WINDOW);

Wait to a input:
aaWaitInput();

Draw somthing:
aaDrawString(AA_DISPLAY_PIXMAP, "Hello World", 20, 20, AA_DEFAULT_FONT, color, 0, FAA_FONT_INK, -1);
This is more complex but it's very strong funktion. You can manipulate the string very mutch.

And so on!


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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 22:46:48
#130 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
@Pleng
You are being mislead, C is *not* and *never will be* as easy as BASIC, no matter how many #defines you use! There are some very simple reasons for that:

* BASIC does not (typically) require you to declare procedures or variables, you can just start using them. C always requires you put code inside procedures, and you must declare variables before first use. Personally I think C's way is better, but it is less easy for beginners.

* BASIC allows you to manipulate strings (e.g. joining two together), without worrying about allocating strings of the right size to hold the result, and without worrying about deallocating the strings you have finished with. C does, the advantage is speed & efficiency, but it is much less easy for beginners.

* BASIC typically does not require you to understand pointers, you may not even be able to use pointers, where-as it is almost unavoidable that you use them in C. Pointers are more faster & efficient, but they are also much more bug prone, and easily cause crashes, so C is less beginner friendly there too.

Overall, BASIC is easier to learn, but it teaches programming practices that will cause you problems with large programs. If you only want to write small 'toy' programs, then BASIC is probably better for you. If you hope to graduate to bigger programs, I would recommend something like C or AmigaE, even though they have a steeper learning curve.

edit: It is worth mentioning that I *have* written some big programs in a language similar to BASIC, and while it was possible, I would not recommend the experience!


I agree!

A Basic developer dream to develope C!
A C developer dream to develope next program!


And now I go to Basic....oh..wrong, go to Bed!

Last edited by linnar on 18-Feb-2008 at 10:48 PM.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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BigD 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 22:59:08
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Skyraker

Quote:
Why are we even talking about this? It's not Amiga.


I totally agree. I think if we ignore Amiga Inc. like they've ignored us the last 8 years, maybe we'll wake up in 8 years time with Amiga trademarks and OS4.0 owned by Hyperion/ACube and (New) Commodore in a joint partnership with investment from China and with David Pleasance and Dave Haynie on the board of directors!

The Kent Center mess on its own was enough for me never to take the current Amiga Inc. regime seriously ever again. I hope they lose the court case with Hyperion and I hope AmigaAnywhere2 is a dead donkey and loses them lots and lots of money. The sooner they're bankrupt the better!!!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Zardoz 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 23:36:21
#132 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
The Kent Center mess on its own was enough for me never to take the current Amiga Inc. regime seriously ever again. I hope they lose the court case with Hyperion and I hope AmigaAnywhere2 is a dead donkey and loses them lots and lots of money. The sooner they're bankrupt the better!!!!


While I don't like defending Amiga Inc. about anything, I would like to ask you to keep the Kent stuff and the lawsuit stuff out of this thread. There are many threads to choose from for those.

_________________

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 0:26:47
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Pleng

Quote:

So, to make syntax similar to BASIC I have to add 6 extra lines of code to the beginning of my project? Where as AMOS worked like basic 'out of the box'. As I didn't know about the #define code (having never touched 'c' in my life other than the hello world application in C for DOS), and wouldn't have had you not told me about it, that doesn't sound particularly 'easy' to me.


#defines are like macros, you can do almost anything whit this powerful tool.

I use this tool mostly to reduce or simplify code, when I don't won't to type the same over and over again.

Quote:

Let's talk about libraries too, while we're here. If I want to print some text, or a sprite screen, I can just use a command in AMOS. No need to load a library to handle it at the beginning of my code. Can the same be said to be true of AA2?


I don't know about AA, but whit GCC and OS4, library's are automaticly opened and closed.
the only thing you most do is include the correct header files, header files contains the description of commands in C.

I like to show you have C can simplify code compared to basic.


dim number as integer
number = number + 1


in C you type the same as:


int number;
number++;


as you can see there are less chars typed in the C example.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 1:20:58
#134 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2320
From: Minnesota, USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Nice idea. It's a pity your example is wrong. You don't have to dimension variables in BASIC, only arrays and, if supported, structures.

num=num+1

vs.

int num=0;
num++;

You can see that BASIC takes less characters to do this than C.

Python also has implicit declaration of variables, but that is another story.

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 19-Feb-2008 at 01:25 AM.

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samface 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 4:00:50
#135 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Samurai_Crow

Well, some would say explicit declaration of variables is a good thing since it makes it easier to find and follow the variables in use when debugging and so on. They'd say it makes good programming practice.

The "gain" from less lines of code when using implicit variable declaration in comparison with explicit variable declaration is highly marginal, if any at all. Much more is gained from not being so open to different programming styles. There is no point in performing the same CPU instructions with different kinds of programming logic. With less room for different programming styles, it wouldn't just be alot more consistent and clean source codes in projects with more than one programmer, it would probably be much easier to learn programming in the first place.

Not that this argument would speak in C's favor, on the contrary. :P

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

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samface 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 4:25:09
#136 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Skyraker

Quote:

Skyraker wrote:
Why are we even talking about this?

It's not Amiga.



Sure it is. What you want the Amiga to be and what it is are two entirely different things, obviously.

Last edited by samface on 19-Feb-2008 at 04:54 AM.

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MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 6:12:07
#137 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Skyraker

Quote:

Skyraker wrote:
Why are we even talking about this?

It's not Amiga.



It's not a Amiga machine but it's some stuff to make money to make this machine!
Very many company have more than one product to sell and all of them need it.

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http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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Manu 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 6:23:31
#138 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:


It's not a Amiga machine but it's some stuff to make money to make this machine!
Very many company have more than one product to sell and all of them need it.



No way are they going to take money they earn from AA2 and invest that into
developing new hardware (Like an Amiga 6000 or wathever).
And why should they ? There is plenty of harware around so it would be outright stupid to pick up on the "processor wars" and waste all their money there.

AA2 will be just that ....AA2.
Not anything you could relate to the old definition of Amiga

Last edited by Manu on 19-Feb-2008 at 06:23 AM.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 6:32:58
#139 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Skyraker

Quote:
Why are we even talking about this? It's not Amiga.


I totally agree. I think if we ignore Amiga Inc. like they've ignored us the last 8 years, maybe we'll wake up in 8 years time with Amiga trademarks and OS4.0 owned by Hyperion/ACube and (New) Commodore in a joint partnership with investment from China and with David Pleasance and Dave Haynie on the board of directors!

The Kent Center mess on its own was enough for me never to take the current Amiga Inc. regime seriously ever again. I hope they lose the court case with Hyperion and I hope AmigaAnywhere2 is a dead donkey and loses them lots and lots of money. The sooner they're bankrupt the better!!!!

...
Quote:
I think if we ignore Amiga Inc. like they've ignored us the last 8 years,

And You know why. It's not mutch to talk about any more.
Quote:
maybe we'll wake up in 8 years time with Amiga trademarks and OS4.0 owned by Hyperion/ACube and (New) Commodore in a joint partnership with investment from China and with David Pleasance and Dave Haynie on the board of directors!

It's newer come to happen, it's only a bad dream!
OK! Commodore and Amiga have, maybe, some talking's together, so a little bit of You'r dreams is true, maybe....
Quote:
I hope they lose the court

Amiga Inc have a very strong case! Sorry...
Quote:
I hope AmigaAnywhere2 is a dead donkey

The market write about it very mutch more then the write about OS4. OS4 is Year's old and AA2 is only some day's old. This is going to be a big succsess!
Quote:
donkey

Eh, can You program it with C?
Quote:
and loses them lots and lots of money. The sooner they're bankrupt

Yes it's true if You talk about Hyperion, it's mutch more realistic today.


EDIT:
I think we is a little bit OT here

Last edited by linnar on 19-Feb-2008 at 07:48 AM.
Last edited by linnar on 19-Feb-2008 at 07:45 AM.

_________________
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http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 19-Feb-2008 6:38:04
#140 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Manu
Quote:
No way are they going to take money they earn from AA2 and invest that into

It's whas only a example. They invest it there they need it.
When I said "matchine" it's means all about to bring a matchine and OS to the market. The "machine" can be a exist one.

Last edited by linnar on 19-Feb-2008 at 06:40 AM.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
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Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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