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number6 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 18:30:31
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11519
From: In the village

@wegster

ok. But I'm referring to the specific term "completed", which has been used only by Troika and ACube.

Troika:
Quote:
At the current time, we have completed the Prometheus platform, and presently have a production model that would be a suitable candidate for running OS4.


#6

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wegster 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 18:51:20
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@number6
Not that it matters, but does not 'in production' mean the same thing?
Presumably, you don't put a system into production, unless it's completed, unless of course, it's a Mai or EyeTech product..

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K-L 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 18:54:40
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1403
From: Oullins, France

@BigNumber

I personnally don't even think anything will ever be released.

Moreover, I've got a problem about what you said: an Amiga with an 060 processor and SuperAGA will be more powerful in some areas than an AmigaOne with a PowerPC G3/800 mhz and an ATI Radeon graphic card? Seems a little bit too presomputous in my opinion.

Amiga Histoy should have teach us to never make annoucements like these (overall if nothing comes in the months following these annoucement). This is the best way to break dreams and make more and more Amigans leave the platform.

Nonetheless, I have to say to you: Good Luck in your project but as I said, I don't expect anything (so I won't be disapointed).

_________________
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AmigaONE X1000, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700
FPGA Replay + DB 68060 at 85Mhz

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DJBase 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 19:41:41
#44 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2004
Posts: 285
From: Germany

@Leo

Quote:
It runs outdated Amiga AGA/OCS software... ;) And also is powered by a state of the art (cheap ;)) 68060...


If you need up-to-date soft- and hardware go get a PC or Mac.

_________________
Amiga 1200 | Vampire 1200 II | 128 MB RAM | Indivision AGA Mk3 | A314-cp | 2x128 GB CF | AmigaOS 3.2.2
AmigaOne X1000 | 1.8 GHz | 4 GB RAM | Radeon R7 250X | 250 GB SATA SSD | AmigaOS 4.1

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utri007 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 19:44:45
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Aug-2003
Posts: 1068
From: United States of Europe

@DJBase

I don't see any announcements here, just information for something what some hobbyists are trying to do.

I feel shame because someones attitude

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Yssing 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 20:28:58
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1076
From: Unknown

@utri007

Quote:

utri007 wrote:
@DJBase

I don't see any announcements here, just information for something what some hobbyists are trying to do.

I feel shame because someones attitude


Ditto, It seems like a very good project, and if or when it's finished, I would like to get my hands on it.
AGA compatible, but with those resolutions, its just great.
Now what other alternative to AGA is there, that can actually run AGA and at NatAmi's resolutions and at 32 bitplanes??

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wegster 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 20:37:57
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@BigGun

Last time you mentioned Natami, I tried to get the engineer to log on to the long thread, and comment/clarify, without success (although I only found a single email address for him..it didn't bounce, but got no response).

This seemed then to be something 'well into the future.'

While I think everyone would love to see this project come to reality (able to be purchased), does not the 'sold as a complete system' diminish it's chances even further, or has something changed there?

Can you get the natami developer to log on and comment?


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BigGun 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 20:41:53
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

Quote:

Moreover, I've got a problem about what you said: an Amiga with an 060 processor and SuperAGA will be more powerful in some areas than an AmigaOne with a PowerPC G3/800 mhz and an ATI Radeon graphic card? Seems a little bit too presomputous in my opinion.



What I said was, SOME areas and this is true.

Some facts:

a) The AmigaOne is crippled by its memory interface.
If your algorithm is memory bound then a G3AmigaOne is not faster than a high clocked 68060 with fastmem.

b) AmigaOne one has a bottle neck to the GFX card.
Look at the throughput from G3 CPU to GFXCard and you will burst to tears.
Its no problem for the Natami to beat a AONE here.

c) The Natami Chipmem is very fast - Its much faster than the Radeon!

d) The Natami Blitter provides HW acceleration for "curved" texturemapped blits.
In other words you can use it to HW accelerate Voxel routines.
As far as I know there is no PC card that has this feature.

And while the Natami 68060 is not the fastest CPU but it can upgraded.


If you use the special features of the NATAMI like the HW accelerated Voxels then you can create awesome results.


If you think your G3 Amiga can do better, then go on and try to code a better looking Voxel routine.


Please don't argue - I'm not here to argue.

My post was only intended to give you an update on my work and show you what is possible with the Natami.
I have to admit that I'm proud to have get this routine working so nice on Natami.


I'll focus on coding now again and not be in the forum for some time.
If you have question please email me. I'll give another update in a week or two.

Cheers
Gunnar

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BigGun 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 20:54:55
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@wegster
Quote:

While I think everyone would love to see this project come to reality (able to be purchased), does not the 'sold as a complete system' diminish it's chances even further, or has something changed there?

Can you get the natami developer to log on and comment?


I just saw your post, and try to answer it before I leave.
But I have to admit I don't fully understand the question.

- Yes, the Natami is going to be produced.
- The goal is to produce a batch for more developers this summer.
- The Natami boards will come with OS3.

Personally I'm not sure if there is a real market for the Natami.
The parts needed to build the Natami are quite expensive.
Because of this the Natami will to be in the price range of the SAM or AONE.

I don't believe that many people will buy the Natami at this price.
But this is not important for any of the Natami developers.


Cheers

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

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Hans 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:05:04
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5020
From: New Zealand

@BigGun

Quote:

BigGun wrote:
@wegster

Personally I'm not sure if there is a real market for the Natami.
The parts needed to build the Natami are quite expensive.
Because of this the Natami will to be in the price range of the SAM or AONE.

I don't believe that many people will buy the Natami at this price.
But this is not important for any of the Natami developers.


Cheers


That's a pity as I would have been interested if it were cheaper. I think that the price of an 68060 is probably the biggest problem. The price for those are ridiculous.

Regarding the better than A1 in some areas, when you have time, could you make some actual benchmarks testing the memory bandwidth of the various systems? That would be nice.

I'm not so sure about your memory bandwidth of the G3 vs. 060 though, as the G3's memory bus is clocked at 133 MHz. It sound like a tall order to expect an 060 to beat that. However, I'm not saying that it's impossible.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Zardoz 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:17:24
#51 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
I'm not so sure about your memory bandwidth of the G3 vs. 060 though, as the G3's memory bus is clocked at 133 MHz. It sound like a tall order to expect an 060 to beat that. However, I'm not saying that it's impossible.


He's talking about memory latency, not bandwidth. He's mentioned using SRAM as Chip RAM.

Last edited by Zardoz on 06-Mar-2008 at 09:17 PM.

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Hans 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:38:13
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5020
From: New Zealand

@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
I'm not so sure about your memory bandwidth of the G3 vs. 060 though, as the G3's memory bus is clocked at 133 MHz. It sound like a tall order to expect an 060 to beat that. However, I'm not saying that it's impossible.


He's talking about memory latency, not bandwidth. He's mentioned using SRAM as Chip RAM.


I don't think so. In a memory limited algorithms, bandwidth is what is important, unless you're accessing individual bytes in random locations throughout your memory (i.e., can't be cached). Also, he was talking about main memory too (see his comment #1).

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Zardoz 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:42:36
#53 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
I don't think so. In a memory limited algorithms, bandwidth is what is important, unless you're accessing individual bytes in random locations throughout your memory (i.e., can't be cached). Also, he was talking about main memory too (see his comment #1).


There was quite an long discussion on this in the last NatAmi thread, I think that he *does* mean random locations throughout the memory and when he says faster than the CPU GFX bus he means for memory reads.

Edit: That is not to say that I agree with him, just clarifying from what I remember from the previous discussions.

Last edited by Zardoz on 06-Mar-2008 at 09:56 PM.

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Hans 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:55:32
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5020
From: New Zealand

@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
I don't think so. In a memory limited algorithms, bandwidth is what is important, unless you're accessing individual bytes in random locations throughout your memory (i.e., can't be cached). Also, he was talking about main memory too (see his comment #1).


There was quite an long discussion on this in the last NatAmi thread, I think that he *does* mean random locations throughout the memory and when he says faster than the CPU GFX bus he means for memory reads.


I was querying point number one specifically, not everything. Forget about the CPUGFX bus; this point was about main-memory. Memory limited algorithms usually don't randomly read and write from/to large regions of memory such that it always misses the cache and never reads/writes from the same row in SDRAM twice.

If the Natami uses SRAM for fast-RAM too, then, on the point of latency, it might be possible to overclock a 68060 to beat133 MHz SDRAM in totally random accesses. For real memory limited algorithms, I'd still place my bet on the G3.

Hans

_________________
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Zardoz 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 21:59:08
#55 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
I was querying point number one specifically, not everything. Forget about the CPUGFX bus; this point was about main-memory. Memory limited algorithms usually don't randomly read and write from/to large regions of memory such that it always misses the cache and never reads/writes from the same row in SDRAM twice.


Well, I do not know what algorithm he's referring to etc., as I said, I'm just repeating what he said in our arguments before. I think he did mention a pointer chase last time and Umisef gave him some benchmark results from his PC on that.

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TheDaddy 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 22:38:08
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@All

I think we should all be grateful that someone is still taking time and trying to make:

1) Amiga hardware
2) Amiga software

So Gunnar good luck and I hope to see the Natami and your demo very soon.

Looking forward to checking the natami site with more news and pictures, I can't wait!

Last edited by TheDaddy on 06-Mar-2008 at 11:12 PM.

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Leo 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 22:42:33
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

And while the Natami 68060 is not the fastest CPU but it can upgraded.

Ok, the thing is not even released than you're talking about upgrading the CPU... and btw, how will you upgrade it ? We all know so much the problems we have when using 68k+Alien CPU on an Amiga computer...

Quote:

- The Natami boards will come with OS3.

So that means you've got a licence ?

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Rob 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 6-Mar-2008 23:03:18
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6257
From: S.Wales

@Leo

Maybe Amiga Forever will be included in the price.

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CodeSmith 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 7-Mar-2008 0:27:49
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@BigGun

Thank you for keeping us up to date. I agree that the system is likely to be overpriced and underpowered compared to a recent x86 box, but it is nonetheless very cool and if the price is in the ballpark of a Sam440 (ie around $700-$800) I would probably buy one.

I would like to suggest that the devloper offer a version with a fast 68040 as well, because the price-performance ratio of the '060 is not as good (the '060 is definitely faster than the '040, but the price difference is greater than the perf difference).

About adding a PowerPC CPU: terrible idea. That would make the NatAmi theoretically capable of running OS4, and so it would probably end up getting sucked into the lawsuit (and maybe even getting a court order preventing its sale). Once that is settled, then we can start thinking about PPC

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CodeSmith 
Re: New AMIGA game 68k
Posted on 7-Mar-2008 0:42:57
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Rob

Yes, OS3 licenses are relatively easy to get hold of.

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