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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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PosterThread
Kronos 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 8:16:17
#161 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2120
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:


Who's going to pay to keep the lights on at Hyperion, and pay for development over the period of time during which they work on the port? You think bankers are going to line up to fund it?



Amd who is paying to keep the lights up TODAY ? Obviously not the income from OS4-sales (o.k. technicly it should be just enough to pay the electric-bill, but I doubt that was what you were aiming up).

OS4 hasn*t paid it*s bills and it as it looks it will never do, call it cross-financed or just a hobby ....

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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QuBe 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 8:33:30
#162 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1063
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Caveman & Hans;

I too would purchase Os4.1 for PS3 if it were available. I wonder how many other x-Amigans out there would too. If some of those x-Amigans are running Linux on their PS3's now surely they would be interest in what an AmigaOS could offer.

Opi may be right about a Sony Dev License... however, as far as I can tell, any PPC based Linux distro is installable on the PS3 right, without special permission from Sony. I guess that is fine because Linux is "free" in essence.

However if Hyperion or Amiga Inc were to release an Os4.1 variant for the Ps3, sell it and make a profit doing so... Sony would step in; they would want a cut on the software no doubt... that is how their commercial model works. Make a loss on the hardware, recoup the majority on the software... if it ain't a Linus... and if it ain't free... Sony will most likely want a license fee...

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 22-Mar-2009 at 08:34 AM.

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Arnie 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 10:30:41
#163 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 810
From: Swindon, UK, Earth somewhere in the galaxy

@Thread

I really don't see the point in this argument any more. Amiga OS4.x should have been X86 from the start then we wouldn't have this problem now, we would instead have a selection of good cheap hardware to make an Amiga machine out of. There is no obligation to support it all just a few crucial chipsets. Now we will never know what could have been.

As it is things went PPC and is now to late to change as the cost and time would probably be the demise of the OS

So where now, in the ideal world we would get a modern PPC mother board to the same spec of the mid/top X86 boards for no more that 150. Considering the price of Sam this ain't going to happen ever.

The truth is Amiga is just going to slowly fade away with less and less people arguing like this as time passes. Yes OS4.x is progressing for now but to what ends, if my A1 dies then I won't be buying any more over priced / under spec hardware and I'm sure there are a lot of like minded Amigan's here. I say Amigan's because the existing users are the only customers the OS has, and the numbers are dropping. There is absolutely and categorically no way ever a new user from outside the community will buy in to Amiga OS as it stands and these are the people needed most, new users, new developers.

I can only hope someone will prove me wrong ( back the the 150 hardware ) as things are grim right now and the reaper may become more to the OS than an error box in the middle of the screen.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 12:13:47
#164 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@All

Please re-read the press-release issued when Hyperion relaunched its website:

"Hyperion Entertainment wishes to thank its loyal customer-base for its continued support as it embarks on its most ambitious project to date – watch this space for further information."

And no, it's not a port to x86, that would not be "ambitious".

_________________

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 12:58:33
#165 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9086
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Manu

Quote:
It's not that hard to boot AROS. and it's not a mess.


It is if none of the grub booting options actually boot AROS.

It alwasy seems to get stuck on the floppy for some reason I notice. I always see how it can't open trackdisk.device.

(BTW why is it called trackdisk.device? As it's controlling a PC floppy drive it wouldn't support the Amiga features. Do AROS floppies even have 11 sectors per track? Not even the new FD0: FFS on PC format 720/1440 disk does.)

Quote:
Things are getting sorted out everyday. And if only more coders would join AROS we could have them fixed faster. With AROS you can make a difference yourself.


But, not only would you need to be familar with AmigaOS/AROS internals, you'd need to be familar with PC hardware internals as well? Would you not?

Quote:
If you want you can now buy the Imica.


Is that what they are calling the ImicaOne?

Quote:
Aros doesn't have to support every PC out there. OS4 doesn't run on every PPC board out there either does it ?


No. But that is the difference between the AmigaOS4 PPC hardware and the PC hardware AROS targets. When you target x86, like the point I made eariler, people will want to run it on the home PC that's already there.

Apart from buying a new PC with AROS compatible hardware, how many would buy an AROS PC as a dedicated AROS machine and make space for it? With the AmigaOne you needed the space as it wasn't some PC but AROS changes the target audience completely.

It's like your sig, when Haynie spoke about that, was he talking about buying an OS for the PC at home or buying an OS and having a dedicated PC to go with it?

Last edited by Hypex on 22-Mar-2009 at 01:13 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 13:07:42
#166 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9086
From: Greensborough, Australia

@ferrels

Quote:
Even AROS was ported to PPC from x86 within a matter of a few months by one man, Michal Schulz. It isn't inconceivable that Hyperion could port OS4 to x86 in even less time since they have more programmers and resources available than Michal did.


AROS is a non-endian centric OS, like Linux. Although it was targetted for x86, it was also made to be compiled for another CPU. It was based on OS3.1 but they removed the 68k big-endian dependant stuff.

OS4 is built on the 68k big-endian OS3.1, so the port isn't exactly the same. And there is no x86 Petunia or 68k emulator to drop in it's place. A UAE sandbox will not cut it. Apart from that, how do we deal with this, introduced with OS4? No PPC has been appended to specify it.

Quote:
struct ExceptionContext
{
uint32 Flags; /* Flags, describing the context (READ-ONLY)*/
uint32 Traptype; /* Type of trap (READ-ONLY) */
uint32 msr; /* Machine state */
uint32 ip; /* Return instruction pointer */
uint32 gpr[32]; /* r0 - r31 */
uint32 cr; /* Condition code register */
uint32 xer; /* Extended exception register */
uint32 ctr; /* Count register */
uint32 lr; /* Link register */
uint32 dsisr; /* DSI status register. Only set when valid */
uint32 dar; /* Data address register. Only set when valid */
float64 fpr[32]; /* Floating point registers */
uint64 fpscr; /* Floating point control and status register */
/* The following are only used on AltiVec */
uint8 vscr[16]; /* AltiVec vector status and control register */
uint8 vr[512]; /* AltiVec vector register storage */
uint32 vrsave; /* AltiVec VRSAVE register */
};

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 13:26:10
#167 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 711
From: Arizona

@Hans

I'm not "expecting" Hyperion to do anything. I'm pointing out that porting an OS to a different architecture isn't as bank-breaking or time consuming as several people on here believe....or rather they're trying to make others believe. The same naysayers were complaining that AROS would never be ported to PPC (due to endianess issues and others) and Michal Schulz ported it in several months in his spare time at his own expense. That's a fact and cannot be argued unless you want to argue with him personally.

It doesn't matter if the port is from PPC to x86, or x86 to ARM, or x86 to CUDA. Porting is porting and it's done all the time. Let me be clear, I port "applications" not OSs between several OSs on three different architectures and if it was as difficult as several people on here purport, hell, I wouldn't even get up in the morning! And I never said it wasn't time consuming and at times difficult.

I also understand that Hyperion wants to recoup its development/porting investment by squeezing every last penny out of SAMs, Pegs, and A1s. What developer wouldn't? I do think they are missing out on a lot of revenue now by not having OS4 running on the dominant CPU in the market. Maybe they feel that the Intel market will still be there when or if they ever decide to port to x86. I really don't know what they're thinking. But I do know that the longer they wait, the smaller the market will become for those who want OS4 on x86. They'll move on as many have because the current Amiga h/w platform is woefully underpowered and overpriced.

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KimmoK 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 13:27:20
#168 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5091
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

I got SAM already, so...

@Hyperionmp

AOS4 for embedded MIPS for me please.

Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Mar-2009 at 01:27 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Varthall 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 13:31:54
#169 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Feb-2004
Posts: 1549
From: Up Rough

@Hyperionmp

I'm relieved to hear that, thanks for this news :)

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram
MPlayer for OS4: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mplayer-amigaos/

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Manu 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 13:48:22
#170 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Yes, my sig is great isn't it. It means exactly what it says.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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VidarL 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 14:46:23
#171 ]
Member
Joined: 16-May-2003
Posts: 75
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

And no, it's not a port to x86, that would not be "ambitious".


No, but it would be the sensible thing to do..

You've said before that an x86 port would require too many resources, but now you're trying to something even more ambitious.. Call me sceptical, but you haven't shown that you can deliver anything ambitious within a reasonable timeframe. And your bet on PPC hasn't exactly paid off, has it?

While the OS4/OS4.1 projects produced decent results, it took WAY too long. What has changed that will enable you to deliver your most abitious project to date in a timely maner?

And without any details, it's just words. Show us some real plans of what you want to achieve and how you intend to achieve it, or please keep silent. We've had enough of the "believe in us" crap in the last decade.

Regards,

Vidar

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Metalheart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 14:58:06
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2967
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@VidarL

Ouch....

_________________
Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 15:00:41
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8663
From: Unknown

@VidarL

Hyperion delivered OS4.0 for A1 and A1200/3000/4000 and OS4.1 for A1/SAM/PegII. They did more for our platform than me or you, thus keep silent and let them work!

What am I doing? I, white troll, defend Hyperion? Shame on me!

Last edited by pavlor on 22-Mar-2009 at 03:02 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 15:20:42
#174 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1584
From: Unknown

Quote:

Hyperion delivered OS4.0 for A1 and A1200/3000/4000 and OS4.1 for A1/SAM/PegII. They did more for our platform than me or you, thus keep silent and let them work!

Sure.. but was it that good ?
And does it mean people should lose any type of criticism ?

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 15:47:33
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8663
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
And does it mean people should lose any type of criticism ?


Criticism yes, but I am against Hyperion bashing.

Last edited by pavlor on 22-Mar-2009 at 03:48 PM.

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andres 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 15:47:38
#176 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Nov-2008
Posts: 326
From: Firenze (Italy)

Let's see what is going to happen...

_________________
A1200/020+68882 - 6 MB RAM - AmigaOS 3.0

Home Recording Audio

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Metalheart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 15:51:08
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2967
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@Hyperionmp

Do you have any timeframe on this project ?
Wait... Before you say 'When its done', When will we HEAR more of this ? This year ? Before summer ? Next year ?

Realy curious...

_________________
Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

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Troels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 16:12:24
#178 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1975
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp
You tease..

I read just the press-release but I couldn't find any projected release date for the "ambitious project"

_________________

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 16:28:31
#179 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1584
From: Unknown

Well, that's where it is ambitious: releasing something without having any release date...

Btw where is that press release ?

Last edited by Leo on 22-Mar-2009 at 04:28 PM.

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VidarL 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 16:34:21
#180 ]
Member
Joined: 16-May-2003
Posts: 75
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Hyperion delivered OS4.0 for A1 and A1200/3000/4000 and OS4.1 for A1/SAM/PegII. They did more for our platform than me or you, thus keep silent and let them work!


If they did more for our platform than you or me is a matter of perspective. I think it's fairly clear that Amiga Inc went PPC partly because of Hyperion wanted to. IMO that decision is THE major mistake that has been done in the aftermath of Commodore. Where would we be today if they had chosen to work along the Amithlon route? My bet is better hardware and a lot more users.

Yes, Hyperion have created new versions of the OS, but it's only possible to run it on overpriced low-spec machines that are produced in miniscule numbers, and it took many years to make a fairly modest update.

How many people have benefitted from their work?

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