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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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OldFart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:35:19
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2917
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@eXec

Nice thread, but oh so boring! It has been dissected to death.

Remember this: innovation NEVER, EVER comes from abundant application of current crop of cheap and cheerfull parts in a new design. Whether you are going to be the constructor of an all new car, a laundrymachine or a computer: innovation comes from applying parts that are not common market (yet).

Both Ford and GM and actually the entire car industry is currently suffering from riding the wave of oldfashioned technology, because it was so cheap and matured. And yes, develloping allnew technology costs money and that investment has to be recouped by selling the allnew product at a high price to avantguardistic customers.
Apple held that aura for so long when using PPC, but it was unable to hold on against the very brute force of Microsoft, so it had to succumb to survive. And now look where it is going in terms of marketshare? Dwindling?
And then there is Linux, designed on i386, which is even free! Free as in beer. With a darn good portfolio of applications. But does it get much foothold in general? NO!
And you would put Amiga in that same setting? It would be the absolute kill of it. I fully agree, however, that the current offerings of PPC are not making inroads into the desktopmarket. Any other architecture, as pointed out above, somewhere, would be HIGHLY preferable above going x86 (or Itanium, for that matter). No one in his right set of mind would shell out a 100 Euro's or more for an OS that CANNOT currently compete overall with something that is either free, or comes readily installed on a computer at the time of sales.

In short: Going x86 is a fullfledged licence to kill Amiga once and for good.

OldFart

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The younger and less experienced a coder is, the more difficult it is to prove him wrong...

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:45:38
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8762
From: Unknown

@AmiDelf2

Quote:
Why are you so desperate to get AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS to x86???


Because there is no other choice...
There was no major progress of PowerPC CPUs since 2005 (970MP).
Common x86 CPUs (2600 MHz Core 2 Duo E6700) are 10 times faster than 440EP in SAM and more than 4 times faster than 1.5 GHz G4 in Mac Mini.

New Core i7 is even two times faster than E6700...
Compare Core i7 and 1 GHz G4: speed difference is combarable to 68030 50 MHz and Pentium... (or 100 MHz 68060...)

Last edited by pavlor on 20-Mar-2009 at 08:46 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:58:43
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1468
From: Marston Moretaine, England

In an ideal world Hyperion, MorphOS team, and Aros developers would get together to merge Amiga OS technology into one portable source base that can be compiled on PPC, x86, ARM and x64. They would then upgrade OS to handle proper multicore support and make Tesla compatible. All this then in a case with great modern style and under a thousand pounds ($1500). That is possible, and would be a great success.

At the moment the market is so fractured that it has no long term plan for survival and will remain like the classic car enthusiast, yes I can get a replacement bumper for 1912 ford manufactured by bob down the road. But of course the car is no longer relevant due to advances apart from pure passion for it and a historic memory of what could have been.

In the meantime, perhaps people who want a low cost and powerful Amiga operating system come together and tell the three main players that is what they want and commit to pay for the new technology. Money talks and whilst I agree with the x86 comments completely, Arm is also in the mix. I do personally believe PPC will not recover especially in this world financial climate.

Time to all come together and plan for a future.

http://www.amiga25.com

_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
https://www.amigasystems.com/

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utri007 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 9:07:17
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Aug-2003
Posts: 946
From: United States of Europe

Sorry my poor knowledge, but I do know 69, but what kind of sex position is x86

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AmiDelf2 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 9:10:40
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 341
From: Norway, Oslo

@pavlor

No other choice??? Have you read my post at all? I said AROS as an option if you
want to run AmigaOS enviromented OS on x86. Support that one!

There are AROS components in MorphOS etc. Included but not limited to DOS, Intution,
Gadtools, Locale, Commodities as it says in About MorphOS box. I don't know about
AmigaOS 4 and AROS, but this proves that MorphOS is as much AmigaOS as any other
Amiga operating systems which isn't for 68k.

What if we just start to call this for the Amiga platform. An platform forming AmigaOS 4.1,
MorphOS 2.2, AROS and Classic AmigaOS.

AmigaOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.2 can do fine on PPC. AROS as your x86 AmigaOS. That
would be the best thing.

But thing here is to get AmigaOS and MorphOS coders to start working together and form
an platform etc. Stronger platform, means Fennec, Firefox, FireBird and other cool apps
getting ported because audience outside of our community will see that although we aren't
financially high, the Amiga platform have great userbase.

Good morning btw :)

_________________
Regards,
Michal, Amiga user since 1988
amitopia@gmail.com

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 9:15:48
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@pavlor

Surely noone here disagrees that we need something faster than the 440ep at ~600MHz.

But right now ACube has the knowledge on how to design/test/market a board, so I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to make something like a SAM460GTx as their next step. It would be at least twice as fast, and changing from PCI+PCI to PCI+PCIe is dead simple. Rip out the PCI bridge and the two extra PCI ports, put in two x4 ports in x16 connectors instead.

The SoC itself is a lot harder to route than the 460GT, but I actually think the extra 400MHz would be worth the trouble.

If not, a design taking the 440EP out and replacing it with a 460GT is likely doable in about one month hard work. Honestly.


EDIT:
Or maybe preferably an MPC86010, since it's more or less identical in spec to the 460GTx but available NOW.

Last edited by olegil on 20-Mar-2009 at 09:58 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Yssing 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 9:15:54
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 963
From: Unknown

@AmiDelf2

Yeah... resources would be better spend at focusing on developing new PPC mobos instead..

Say Nay to x eighti six

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 9:20:40
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@AmiDelf2

Agreed. At this point, only good things can come from cooperation. There's a split in MUI vs Reaction and Ambient vs Workbench, but surely that cannot be a show stopper for porting things like OOo?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 10:34:57
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@AmiDelf2

And what will happen in few years when the PPC arhitecture becomes
unevolved as the 68000 series... And that will happen, you know it.
Current PPC arhitecture is going to share 68xxx destiny and in terms of
futuristic computer science will be remembered under:
-" Once upon a time there was a great, stabile, fast, cool arhitecture named
PPC... "

The same story as for the 68xxx..it was cool, silent, fast, but...
you know how the story ended...

I dont want to be false understood, I am a truly amigitian, for a good 16 years
now, not some intel/m$ agent thrown in this forum ;D

I am just looking on the current situation with clear mind and Apple should be
one of the guiding stars for all of us... Just look onto i7 architecture
and say that currently you have a better, faster and more available CPU.
Not to mentian the price range, from low budget office till hi speed
monsters for professional audio/video pre/post production.

...as once said, now repeated... TIme will show the difference, indeed!

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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Rob 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 10:35:29
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5690
From: S.Wales

@olegil

I would consider an 1.3Ghz MPC8610 based board as an upgrade over my 1Ghz XE, anything less and I won't be parting with my money unless the XE died.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 10:46:02
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@clusteruk

I don`t get it why are we always talking about the most xpencive
machines available, as potential future amiga hardware based machines,
when it is still just a hobby platform!

We need a jump onto a most spread technology, and that is the x86...
..without it, we are nowhere...PPC is going to become a myth, weather we like
it or not.

all the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 10:59:10
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@OldFart

- "Nice thread, but oh so boring! It has been dissected to death."

You know how the old people say, thousand people, thusand different thoughts.
I don`t see that as a death, a contrary - a new beginning, a new era.
Everyone has a opportunity to present it`s point of view....I am just doing that,
nothing more, nothing less.....


- " In short: Going x86 is a fullfledged licence to kill Amiga once and for good."

I am not sharing your opinion , not even a single percent of it ... If we get the
opportunity to see the OS 4.x ported on x86 , with current machine resources
strategy I think that it will get the 200% out of it, far more better as Win/OSx.
For 600 you can go and buy yourself a quite powerful beast today,
capable of , everything.

License to kill, or license to live - to be, or not to be.... an eternal question of
the meaning of life...


All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:01:09
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@olegil


"If Amiga on x86 is so important, why doesn't AROS see more interest?"

Simply, because , OS4.x is far more better than Aros...


All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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Troels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:12:42
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1976
From: Unknown

@eXec
True.
OS4 seems far more complete and usable than AROS atm. But as an end user who doesn't care which CPU is used I wish it was AROS that was stuck on PPC and OS4 that was on X86.

I don't really need multi Ghz systems but i need something affordable to be available if my A1 dies. Currently a SAM board would be a step in the wrong direction for me I would prefer something faster for the money.

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:20:49
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@eXec

And you know the PPC will die because?

Has AMCC stopped developing it?
Has Freescale stopped developing it?
Has IBM stopped developing it?

The next big thing is offloading stuff to the GPU. Massively parallell computing.

Besides, the fastest supercomputer in the world uses XCell and Opteron together. Fewer cores than number two, which uses only Opteron. Nearly a third of the power consumption (4.5MW saved would mean a saving of 6 million USD per year at the rates I pay for electricity).

Do you honestly not see that POWER architecture has a future?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:20:52
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Troels

That`s the thing I am talking about....

Never mind, AOS4.x could stay on SAM too... but I am more sure that
on x86 it would cause a mass income of new users...

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:22:10
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@eXec

Yes. Just like AROS did.

Oh, wait.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:27:42
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@olegil

I am speaking about home desktops, not nuclear and weather simulation
supra computers. Strawberries and apples are not to be mixed together.
__
And you know the PPC will die because?
"Has AMCC stopped developing it?
Has Freescale stopped developing it?
Has IBM stopped developing it? "
____

On 1000 home computers, how many of them are x86, and how many are
PPC based?

In professional audio/video pre&post production how many
workstations are PPC based today?

Why is Apple, the biggest PPC user, gone x86?

Why is Nvidia planning to develop it`s own x86 cpu?

Answer me on those questions in short answers, if you can!


All the best,

D.


_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:38:36
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3401
From: Unknown

@eXec

This mean that all the investments, time and effort pt in the PPC platform should be trow in the bin. Maybe there are other faster PPC boards in development, who knows?

_________________
retired

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Manu 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:40:17
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

There's no point discussing moving AOS4.0 x86. We had ha hefty discussion here
3 years ago why it would be so cool if Amiga OS 4.0 was ported to x86 and all that came
out of it was fying insults to the right and left. HazyDave got his share too.
Think 3 years!!! And what has happened ? Not many more Amiga users at least, it's quite the same bunch. I suggest to re-read that thread instead of creating a equally long one here.
Old thread about OS4 and x86

I no longer want OS4 to go x86 or MorphOS , I made my decision and I just love it.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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