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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:52:48
#501 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc should have gone x86 in the 1st place...PPC was a dead end then and is a dead end now as far as desktops go


I agree. My point is we are in a worse position to change direction then we were then, at least with the closed source, for-profit, AOS.

Quote:
you keep saying this thread is 'just' about hyperion...your not the thread police


No but I'm free to respond in the context of the thread topic and to assume you are being on-topic, because thats what topics are for after all. Like I said before there are plenty of "x86 is best for our future" threads to post in or are easy enough to make anew.

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opi 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:58:16
#502 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Its not just the contract and I am assuming they had the poorly written contract penned


May I remind you who wrote that contract? ;-D

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:03:00
#503 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
ill start with the last bit because its the most relevent...the point is to stop 'wasting' money on things that are going to get us nowhere. That includes lawyers and PPC band aids.


First of all your question was "do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?" and it's completely irrelevant, how much money was spent on lawyers, and what that money would have been enough for, had it not been spent on lawyers. That money is gone, and how much it is, is not going to make any difference whatsoever to the future of the platform. My suggestion is to look at the "now", and "how to make the best of current opportunities" (which is what Hyperion are doing), instead of dwelling on what could have been done differently in the past.


uhh I have talked about 'now'...Ainc claim they are cashed up. Now. on top of that, its saying lets not burn more money on useless crap...It is not an irrelevent point. And as we have all talked about before, there is plenty Ainc can do now with its IP to generate sales and cash (which could be funneled into OS development) that it simply chooses to ignore. Ainc seems to ignore anything that would be remotely successful.

And you guys keep talking as if its guaranteed hyperion will get ownership or some extremely favourable judgement in the lawsuit...they may not. stranger things have happened.
I personally would bet on who has the biggest guns lawyer wise if anything...

as I said before - I have not heard anything to do with any judgement that says Ainc do not own AOS. Until then I will assume its Aincs property. To me it sounds like you guys are assuming AOS is hyperions property.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:10:35
#504 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc should have gone x86 in the 1st place...PPC was a dead end then and is a dead end now as far as desktops go


I agree. My point is we are in a worse position to change direction then we were then, at least with the closed source, for-profit, AOS.

Quote:
you keep saying this thread is 'just' about hyperion...your not the thread police


No but I'm free to respond in the context of the thread topic and to assume you are being on-topic, because thats what topics are for after all. Like I said before there are plenty of "x86 is best for our future" threads to post in or are easy enough to make anew.



my point is that amiga will die if it does not find a way to change course.
as shades has said, SAM shrank the userbase, it didnt expand it.

if you think a thread that is based on AOS going x86 to only involve hyperion you are in la la land, especially after 20 odd pages of debate...secondly until the actual thread police tell me im out of line, I will continue to my hearts content as I do not believe I'm out of line.

Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:12 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:18:00
#505 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback

if you think a thread that is based on AOS going x86 to only involve hyperion you are in la la land, especially after 20 odd pages of debate...secondly until the actual thread police tell me im out of line, I will continue to my hearts content as I do not believe I'm out of line.


Regardless, Amiga Inc. is not listening. And the last OS for desktop they claimed was to be for PPC ACK hardware. Hyperion said no, and even if they said yes it would be unlikely they'd be able to fund the effort. And you guys don't want AROS. You are ####ing in the wind. Everyone knows it would be great to be on x86. What of it? I'd like to be rich as well. Saying that over and over in a forum is not going to make that happen.

Quote:
my point is that amiga will die if it does not find a way to change course. as shades has said, SAM shrank the userbase, it didnt expand it.


Amiga is already dead as any type of mainstream platform. Thats already occured. It happened years ago. Its now a hobby OS, that can luckily fulfill some daily computing tasks.

SAM expanded that hobby userbase. You can say in a way that hurts its x86 potential future. But since that future is just about nil anyway we can hardly blame enthusiasts of the hobby for indulging themselves with the purchase. To them its something. And they, for the most part are likely not under any illusions about the x86 future that would take a miracle to occur.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:26 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:21 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:19 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:18 PM.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:26:20
#506 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback

if you think a thread that is based on AOS going x86 to only involve hyperion you are in la la land, especially after 20 odd pages of debate...secondly until the actual thread police tell me im out of line, I will continue to my hearts content as I do not believe I'm out of line.


Regardless, Amiga Inc. is not listening. Hyperion said no. And you guys don't want AROS. You are ####ing in the wind. Everyone knows it would be great to be on x86. What of it? I'd like to be rich as well. Saying that over and over in a forum is not going to make that happen.


most of what is said on these forums isnt gonna happen. for all you know, this could be the last version of amiga OS ever, ppc or x86. should we all just pack up and leave?

A quote comes to mind - A reasonable man adapts himself to the world; The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself, therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:33:51
#507 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
most of what is said on these forums isnt gonna happen. for all you know, this could be the last version of amiga OS ever, ppc or x86. should we all just pack up and leave?


No, people are free to continually chant "give me AOS for x86" if they want. And they most certainly do do that. But there is nothing wrong with others (like me) making sure you guys get your reality check from time to time either.

Quote:
A quote comes to mind - A reasonable man adapts himself to the world; The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself, therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


Here is one in return from Teddy Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Hyperion is the doer of deeds. You guys are the critics. Talk is cheap.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:46:05
#508 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback

if you think a thread that is based on AOS going x86 to only involve hyperion you are in la la land, especially after 20 odd pages of debate...secondly until the actual thread police tell me im out of line, I will continue to my hearts content as I do not believe I'm out of line.


Regardless, Amiga Inc. is not listening. And the last OS for desktop they claimed was to be for PPC ACK hardware. Hyperion said no, and even if they said yes it would be unlikely they'd be able to fund the effort. And you guys don't want AROS. You are ####ing in the wind. Everyone knows it would be great to be on x86. What of it? I'd like to be rich as well. Saying that over and over in a forum is not going to make that happen.

Quote:
my point is that amiga will die if it does not find a way to change course. as shades has said, SAM shrank the userbase, it didnt expand it.


Amiga is already dead as any type of mainstream platform. Thats already occured. It happened years ago. Its now a hobby OS, that can luckily fulfill some daily computing tasks.

SAM expanded that hobby userbase. You can say in a way that hurts its x86 potential future. But since that future is just about nil anyway we can hardly blame enthusiasts of the hobby for indulging themselves with the purchase. To them its something. And they, for the most part are likely not under any illusions about the x86 future that would take a miracle to occur.


Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable.
It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...

I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.

If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.

in reply to your teddy quote, we are not just critics, we are buyers of products...

Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:52 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:54:34
#509 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable. It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...


You have my vote that Amiga, Inc. should put that money to such good use. But they have shown pretty consistently that thats not what they are interested in, much less our opinions. Many of us have written our emails to Bill and Pentti (RIP), made our public petitions, etc. Its fallen on deafs ears continually for years. They know we want that and that its a good idea. But you can't force them to do something they have no interest in pursuing.

Quote:
I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.


Of course not. Just like I said Hyperion could do it if they got an investor willing to gamble millions. So what? No one with the money is interested in spending it on such efforts. If you want to rob some banks to fund it, go ahead. (tis a joke)

Quote:
If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.


Yep, but what we have is not that. And there are no signs at all that he is going anywhere. If Fran Dramis and other board members did not oust him, if Pentti did not, if Prokom did not already there is no reason to believe he will be leaving any time soon.

Quote:
in reply to your teddy quote, we are not just critics, we are buyers of products...


Ok then, lets sound off.

I've bought AOS 4.x from Hyperion, how about the rest of you guys?

Or did you mean the "potential" buyers of products, of products that don't exist yet, that likely will never come, that even if they do may take years and no longer strike your fancy or be all that you wanted?

The bottom line is I agree that it would be nice for your fanciful dream to become the reality. I'm all for it. Perhaps I should ask this question instead. How likely do you think it is to happen? And do you think that re-hashing it again and again in public tangibly increases the odds it will happen?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 05:56 PM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 17:59:13
#510 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Hypex

Quote:
I am goint to make a point here. Without the move to PowerPC even the possibility of an x86 AmigaOS would not exist! Regarding the AmigaOne on PowerPC and AmigaOS4 vs. x86 I do have a point to make here. The PowerPC AmigaOne brings AmigaOS closer to x86! Closer than ever before



10000% correct, now is time to move on!


Quote:
So imagine going from AmigaOS 68k to x86. "When it's done" would have been ten years later! No OS4 for real Amigas. No OS4 for interrmediate Amiga replacements. Nothing for us to play with until it was finished and by then would we still be waiting for anythhng.?


10 years? Errrmmm... In 10 years you can alone write an operating system

Quote:
When they first announced AmigaOS4, it was a delvelopers pre-release on x86!! Did you all forget? You wanted what Amiga did but it didn't happen.


That`s right, but...it is time to escape from a dying platform!

All the best,

D.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:02:15
#511 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eXec

Quote:
That`s right, but...it is time to escape from a dying platform!


So get to programming!

And if you don't know how get going to school for it.

Let us know when you have some nice screenshots.

Or are you not willing to do that and expect some OS messiah to come and do it for you?

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:03:21
#512 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
The community has suggested and screamed for this for years and years. And that was when companies were in a better position to possibly do that. They chose not to then.


Same thing as by the consumer electronics. Why to mass produce 1080p TV`s
when first you can do the 720p ones and latter put a new standard and replace
720 with 1080 ones... In the meanwhile you are getting 2x the money... Got it?
Same stuff, different package...


All the best,

D.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:05:40
#513 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback


Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable. It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...


You have my vote that Amiga, Inc. should put that money to such good use. But they have shown pretty consistently that thats not what they are interested in, much less our opinions. Many of us have written our emails to Bill and Pentti (RIP), made our public petitions, etc. Its fallen on deafs ears continually for years. They know we want that and that its a good idea. But you can't force them to do something they have no interest in pursuing.

Quote:
I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.


Of course not. Just like I said Hyperion could do it if they got an investor willing to gamble millions. So what? No one with the money is interested in spending it on such efforts. If you want to rob some banks to fund it, go ahead. (tis a joke)

Quote:
If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.


Yep, but what we have is not that. And there are no signs at all that he is going anywhere. If Fran Dramis and other board members did not oust him, if Pentti did not, if Prokom did not already there is no reason to believe he will be leaving any time soon.

Quote:
in reply to your teddy quote, we are not just critics, we are buyers of products...


Ok then, lets sound off.

I've bought AOS 4.x from Hyperion, how about the rest of you guys?

Or did you mean the "potential" buyers of products, of products that don't exist yet, that likely will never come, that even if they do may take years and no longer strike your fancy or be all that you wanted?


it'd strike my fancy more than SAM, thats for sure...enough to pay for the OS as an amiga user.

Mcewen cant live forever...

Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 06:18 PM.
Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 06:07 PM.

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bernd_afa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:05:59
#514 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@the daddy

>What makes a good system successful is mainly because of the software. You can >have the fastest, best looking computer on earth but if there is no software to play >with then it's GAME OVER.

yes thast right, but developing software (not only Porting is a long term process)
when somebody begin to code he look, what chances have this OS in future.

first rule for a succesful OS is, that it have cheap and fast Hardware and thats the reason wy most OS are used on X86.

And when he see, how slow and expensive the OS4 Hardware is, wy he should think this system get success.

also try out to compile a program with a OS4 HW and compile a program with a X86 system

then you notice soon that developing on a X86 System go lots faster.
and many that code for hobby have no fun to wait long

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:06:12
#515 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@eniacfoa

Quote:
PS - you keep saying this thread is 'just' about hyperion...your not the thread police and secondly, the topic is also based on AOS and theres more to the story than hyperion, so why dont you just drop that part....if you want me to defend points, go back and read my arguments



Wait a second! I am a thread creator, therefore I give permissions here
It`s ok, you have my permission

All the best,

D.

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bernd_afa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:09:16
#516 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@COBRA

>OS4 cannot handle multiple CPU cores, so it's not just a matter of "porting it" to >dual-core x86, it would probably require major rework of the kernel and the APIs. >Some of you guys seriously underestimate the efforts involved...

then its bad program if this is not easy possible.

AOS 3.5 and 3.9 support multiple CPU too, see warpup or powerup
also 68k programs on winuae can support multiple CPU

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:10:35
#517 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
SAM expanded that hobby userbase. You can say in a way that hurts its x86 potential future. But since that future is just about nil anyway we can hardly blame enthusiasts of the hobby for indulging themselves with the purchase. To them its something. And they, for the most part are likely not under any illusions about the x86 future that would take a miracle to occur.


Things will happen! Not over night, but...they will come...
Not a hardcore miracle but, x86 based AOS with a certain
supported hardware will do good to Amiga and release it
from the curse of the, "hobby" platform.

All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:12:05
#518 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
Or are you not willing to do that and expect some OS messiah to come and do it for you?


I believe in nuclear filled pancakes, yes!

All the best,

D.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:15:10
#519 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@fairlanefastback


Same thing as by the consumer electronics. Why to mass produce 1080p TV`s
when first you can do the 720p ones and latter put a new standard and replace
720 with 1080 ones... In the meanwhile you are getting 2x the money... Got it?
Same stuff, different package...



You obviously don't understand economies of scale, ROI, or the fact that the creators of HD electronics are in an entirely different league when it comes to funding, cash on hand, available credit, manpower, etc.

Your occasional outbusts with stuff like "yes the dead platform , it must go, we must move on and we will!!" aren't going to actually get anything done in the real world.

As to your comment, 720p is as high as most broadcasts in the U.S. are going to be for years. And the 720p TVs will still work even if they decide to do 1080 broadcasts. And most regular folks will not just run out to buy again. The delaying of the HD cutover in the U.S. shows that. And 1080 HD's core technology is the same. Its hardly a major shift to make a 1080 TV after you made 720 ones.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 18:18:43
#520 ]
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Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback



it'd strike my fancy more than SAM, thats for sure...enough to pay for the OS as an amiga user.



Ok so I take this to mean you aren't actually a Hyperion or Amiga customer yet. And you are only interested in a product that one said they are not going to bring to market and the other does not seem interested in (and even if they were, their track record sucks).

Quote:
Mcewen cant live forever...he's a bit fat too isnt he? keep eating those donuts mcewen...take up smoking while your at it ;)


He can live long enough that you'll only get x86 AOS while you are in a nursing home (if ever). Perhaps you should arrange physical protest demonstrations in front of Amiga's headquarters in Washington state if you really want to get his attention. I seriously doubt he is reading what you have to say here.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 06:21 PM.

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