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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:07:37
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@eXec

I don't understand this question:
Quote:

eXec wrote:
@AmigaBlitter

" Maybe there are other faster PPC boards in development, who knows?"

- Again question.... how many of them will be in professional
desktop audio/video use?

All the best,

D.


What are you bemoaning a lack of? CPU power, GPU power, software, what?

How does it help the Amiga that there is Windows software running on the same board that can use the CPU/GPU to do cool audio/video stuff?

Yes, you as a consumer will have a cheap board for quadruple-booting AmigaOS/Windows/Linux/MacOS (WHICH YOU CAN ALREADY DO, SO IT DOESN'T TECHNICALLY GIVE YOU ANYTHING EXTRA), but to Hyperion and ACube, what is their incentive for doing the switch?

Instead of nagging at Hyperion to focus on x86 now, why don't you assemble a team and finish the damn AROS so it IS as good as the other two?

The POWER architecture is NOT dead, and there IS no clear distinction between embedded/desktop anymore.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:13:14
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@pavlor

You keep getting phase-locked in the old "this is for desktop" and "this is for servers".

There's nothing wrong with using a chip made for servers in a desktop, and there is nothing wrong with using chips made for embedded stuff in desktops.

You said it yourself.

There are Cell chips for servers and TVs. What, pray tell, exists between the server and the entertainment system? What is fairly good at both server operations and watching movies/playing games? Might it be the desktop computer?

Oh my, it is.

So again, who at IBM/AMCC/Freescale has promised you not to make any chips you can use in your desktop computer? Remember, the next big thing is going to be offloading tasks to the GPU, and NO CPU FAMILY IS INHERENTLY BETTER AT THIS THAN THE OTHERS. ALL WE NEED ARE DRIVERS.


And last:
YES, I KNOW THE CURRENT CHIPS FROM AMCC SUCK PERFORMANCE-WISE.
THAT IS NOT WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:15:14
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@wegster

Quote:
And you all assume OS4 is targeted at desktop. Anywhere else, how many phones and network gear, automotive computers, PDAs, STBs etc - use x86?



OOOh, I can answer this:

Approximately zero!

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Phantom 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:43:07
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Aug-2007
Posts: 2047
From: Unknown

Old story, but quite nice to discuss with. So...

...you like it or not, if you want to follow the today's technology to its maximum, we have to enter the x86 world.

...if not, we have to stuck in our reality. Our reality, which is to say the truth, not so good. "We are still falling", but noone sees that unfortunately.

I always keep saying, move AmigaOS to the x86 architecture. Of course that, will not be so easy at the start, but look other OSes right now as well. Look the most popular OSes right now: Windows, Linux or MacOSX. They have x86 architecture on their base. Why not AmigaOS then?

I don't understand why AmigaOS will die if it will move to the x86 architecture. I believe that's our solution and our fate must be the x86. If we want to survice through the years to come, then x86 is the best solution right now.

Not even a MacMini port. Why bother?

We started from Motorola 68k technology, jumped to PPC, but now is time to make the "Leap of Faith". That leap would be the x86 architecture.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:46:04
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

Hopefully , let us pray that the 2009 is the "2001"....
x86 is the only way to go forward now...

The thing is: does the Amiga want to go forward. Natami, 68k compatibility, accelerator boards for old Amigas,... seems like to me they do not.

x86 is the way to go forward, sure. But I'm not sure this is what people want here...

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:47:37
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8977
From: Unknown

@olegil

There are "old" CELL chips for TVs and PS3 and "new" (and veeery expensive) CELL chips for servers.

Quote:
So again, who at IBM/AMCC/Freescale has promised you not to make any chips you can use in your desktop computer? Remember, the next big thing is going to be offloading tasks to the GPU, and NO CPU FAMILY IS INHERENTLY BETTER AT THIS THAN THE OTHERS. ALL WE NEED ARE DRIVERS.


Future...

Today, there are only outdated PowerPC CPUs and "powerful" x86 CPUs. Your want to stay in past and hope for miracles in future.

Quote:
And last:
YES, I KNOW THE CURRENT CHIPS FROM AMCC SUCK PERFORMANCE-WISE.


THE CURRENT CHIPS FROM FEESCALE...


What will be more expensive? OS4 x86 port or new CELL hardware with PCIe etc manufactured (and designed) for our small market?

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:54:14
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

I don't understand why AmigaOS will die if it will move to the x86 architecture. I believe that's our solution and our fate must be the x86. If we want to survice through the years to come, then x86 is the best solution right now.

Well, except all stupid reasons give, a valid one could be that we would loose compatibility. But while this could be valid 10-15 years ago, when the platform was active, and users could have been counted in thousands, what about now ?
In terms of users, the platform is dead. So what would that change ?
Nothing, except that by dumping this, we can finally take a deep breath and develop something new, that would take advantage of all features present in todays hardware: multiple cores, 64bit, memory,...

A true NG AmigaOS, looking forward, not backward !

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Phantom 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 14:59:12
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Aug-2007
Posts: 2047
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
Well, except all stupid reasons give, a valid one could be that we would loose compatibility


Why? Do we have a good compatibility even now? I don't think so.

Quote:
Nothing, except that by dumping this, we can finally take a deep breath and develop something new, that would take advantage of all features present in todays hardware: multiple cores, 64bit, memory,...


That's right.

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Turrican 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 15:05:10
#69 ]
Member
Joined: 1-May-2003
Posts: 49
From: Hellas

Screw them all x86, PPC, ARM. All this porting talk is futile.

After all these years, I think amiga users and especialy developers should have learned their painful lesson. Abstract the underlying platform! See what Google is doing with Android. You know Google is smart! Use the Linux kernel as the bottom layer to reap its excellent hardware support and lay a virtual machine ala Java on top of it. You are done once and for all.

Oh and the best part is that ALL of the necessary stuff for this to happen are OPEN SOURCE, right NOW, backed by mega corporations and vivid communities.

Last edited by Turrican on 20-Mar-2009 at 03:12 PM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 15:13:40
#70 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@olegil

Quote:
What are you bemoaning a lack of? CPU power, GPU power, software, what?


No, it is about representation of the PPC/x86 percentage in today`s
professional / home daily use... nothimg more, nothing less..

And, how is it to look like in the following 10 years, i mean just on PPC / x86 field..
Please, do not answer me about mega servers, nuclear simulation supracomuting
monsters etc...etc... Just ordinary home computers & workstations...

Quote:
How does it help the Amiga that there is Windows software running on the same board that can use the CPU/GPU to do cool audio/video stuff?


And what does the current "situation" do to the Amiga ? It is killing it systematically
each day... No ability to be installed on the most spread hardware means, bad
possibility for new users to come in touch with it! What do you think... That someone
will cash 600 for a mainboard which is on the stadium of low budget x86 board
3-5 years ago? What for? Why... What use of the whole Amiga comunity when there
are just few thousand of us on the planet and just few new ones per year are coming ?
We are currently nothing more than living dynasours with a "holy grail" which we
want to keep just for us. And every single day the same themes, same thoughts,
same wishes, and a bunch of memories form those, beautiful times. Nothing more!
Amiga was for me more than just a computer, it was a symbol of friendship, symbol of
one large community... i met all my friends from all around world over her. It is more
like a living person to me than a machine. But now, where is the whole story?
Nowhere... It has become just an operating system, and i accepted it, that`s the
way today things are standing on all machines. But why to keep it just on few
thousand computers? Why not to give the opportunity for other, new users to come?
Would you cash 600 out just to xperiment with some os just because you heard
or saw in some article that it is megacool, but without major applications and
just with few supported hardware peaces??? I doubt! I got my first Amiga when i was
14, now i am 30...and I still love her as 16 years before, even more though.

We need to go mass wide, wee need new people, new coders, new aplications...
...x86 is giving the opportunity... sad (or event not sad but happy) , but true!

ALl the best,

D.




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steril606 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 15:51:06
#71 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

A port to Cell based hardware would generate a lot of interest in Amiga OS, since there's quite some buzz about the Cell chip right now.

(Yeah, well, I know, unfortunately it seems there is no hardware supporting this currently.)

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 17:15:34
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

We are currently nothing more than living dynasours with a "holy grail" which we
want to keep just for us.

Holy Grail ?
I think people should start to become humble for once in their life as well...

As good as it was in 1985, AmigaOS is outdated, doesn't take advantage of new powerful and useful things like multiprocessor, 64bit, Gb of memory,... doesn't provide useful things such as memory protection, resource tracking,...

Maybe it would be time to stop calling it holy grail ? and be humble ?

There are nice things though: datatypes, assigns, simple directory layout, etc...

But the OS is also a dinosaur... And one of the reason it is so fast is because it's so simple and provides so little services ! But when you stress it just a little, using some CPU/Disk, you quickly reach its limits! No OS-Based cache for disk resources,... Just try playing a video eating some CPU and then opening a WB drawer full of icons... See how slow it becomes... sounds like the Vista you're spitting on, right ? no, cause it's much slower actually...

The OS was written when people's needs, power of CPU, quantity of RAM, RAM speed, screens (having two screens is now common, but dual head isn't supported in AmigaOS...) where so different than what we have now. This explains the presence of the RAM Disk, the rather difficulty to switch between windows (back then an application was rougly equivalent to a screen. Today this is so different): there's no way to do some alt+tab built into the OS... How is this possible ? The OS is a nightmare to use when you start to have a lot of WB windows...

It's high time to rethink it for *today*'s (and future) needs... We have reached its limits. Current architecture will never allow multi processor, 64bit,... And this is the present. Now what do we want to do ? Live in the past ? or enjoy today's and future's hardware (and applications).

Last edited by Leo on 20-Mar-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 20-Mar-2009 at 05:19 PM.

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OldFart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 17:57:20
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2920
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Phantom

Quote:
we have to enter the x86 world

And you know: Winston Churchill used to say: Whenever you go through hell, keep on going whilst you may stay in hell.
So, for x86: OK to get into it, but once you're in get THE HELL out of it!

OldFart

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OldFart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:09:20
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2920
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Leo

Quote:
As good as it was in 1985, AmigaOS is outdated, doesn't take advantage of new powerful and useful things like multiprocessor, 64bit, Gb of memory,... doesn't provide useful things such as memory protection, resource tracking,...

May I please point out that those topics are MEANS to get to a set TARGET, that target being recouperation of lost speed.
Amiga is still swift and responsive as ever, except for raw number crunching, but I don't have my Amiga set to such a stupid chore. Especially the phrase 'Gb of memory...' shows that you are highly intoxicated by Microsofts product where more memory makes the system go faster (in contrast: adding more coolant to my car's cooling system does NOT make it go faster, nor does an increase of the size of the boot...).

Do we need all that brute force? No, not for daily activities like surfing the net, typing an applicational letter or watching dirty pictures. But just because it is so darn cheep, compared to couple of years ago, people are made to THINK they need all those go-faster goodies. When 800Mhz, 32bit, single core served me perfectly well 4 years ago, I see nor feel any need to change that.
But, note well: I would not mind having a beefier Amiga.

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 20-Mar-2009 at 06:11 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:23:06
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 801
From: Arizona

@olegil

The PPC architecture will die because system developers and end-users have stopped buying it. As far as desktop systems go, it actually is dead except for the few SAM systems still being produced.

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Lou 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:42:04
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3954
From: Rhode Island

@Turrican

Quote:

Turrican wrote:
Screw them all x86, PPC, ARM. All this porting talk is futile.

After all these years, I think amiga users and especialy developers should have learned their painful lesson. Abstract the underlying platform! See what Google is doing with Android. You know Google is smart! Use the Linux kernel as the bottom layer to reap its excellent hardware support and lay a virtual machine ala Java on top of it. You are done once and for all.

Oh and the best part is that ALL of the necessary stuff for this to happen are OPEN SOURCE, right NOW, backed by mega corporations and vivid communities.


uhm that's basically what I said on the previous page...

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:42:16
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

Do we need all that brute force?

Did we need a 32bit processor back in 1985 ? The 68000 was chosen over the 6502 still. Guess why...

CPU is not about what you can do/need now, but rather what you have the *potential* to do...

Quote:

specially the phrase 'Gb of memory...' shows that you are highly intoxicated by Microsofts product where more memory makes the system go faster (in contrast: adding more coolant to my car's cooling system does NOT make it go faster, nor does an increase of the size of the boot...).

Point me where I said more RAM made your computer faster please ?

Sigh..

Last edited by Leo on 20-Mar-2009 at 06:46 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 20-Mar-2009 at 06:44 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 20-Mar-2009 at 06:43 PM.

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rigo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:50:30
#78 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jul-2003
Posts: 718
From: Unknown

I really don't get the fascination in sitting here "discussing" moving AmigaOS onto different architecture (x86 or otherwise).

For one thing, no-one involved in this conversation is able to take the reins and start the move, and no-one here is in a position to force that move.

Currently, there is one companys management that may, or may not, decide to port the code to something else, and no amount of public discussion is going to make that happen any quicker, if at all.

Before any of you state that they will see this and it will sway them, it is my opinion that "they" will see endless hours of wasted time discussing this very topic over and over and simply switch their web-browser to somewhere else. This topic has already been discussed to death with no move in CPU, so why is it going to change now?

For one thing, moving to off-the-shelf PCs does not allow any room for a hardware business, who is going to run a dealership selling PC parts at prices which compete aginst the component giants? There simply will be no Amiga dealers if that happens. So, instead of making the community bigger, it would actually get smaller. Releasing AmigaOS on PCs will not bring anymore worthwhile users, but it will alienate anyone trying to run a business selling Amiga goods.

To be very honest, even if AmigaOS was available on a superworkhorse with 2 quad cores and more memory than a zoo full of elephants that ran at the speed of light, there would still be enough wrong with it for people to make excuses not to buy it.

Then there is recovering the time spent developing the port, so the price would rise, but it's already too expensive....

Perhaps if the time and effort spent here was directed at a more worthwhile source, the whole issue of cost or functionality would dissappear...

I'm ignoring this thread from now on before I waste time reading pointless "discussion", I'm going back to being productive. What an idea!

Simon

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Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:51:01
#79 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Turrican

Amiga MUST go to x86! It is only way for her to stay alive!
After about few thousand of us there will be NO ONE left!
And you won`t live forever!
Don`t forget that!


All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:57:20
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@rigo

Quote:
For one thing, no-one involved in this conversation is able to take the reins and start the move, and no-one here is in a position to force that move.


Off course that we are those who are involved in everything! We are the ones that
are buying Amiga OS, we are those who kept the dream still alive! We have the right
to demand in order to finish this whole agony! We are the essence of the whole Amiga scene, we are the last one standing and defending our Amiga from total oblivion!
How can you say something like that! Without you, me, and all other kind people here
Amiga would be forgotten a long time ago!

It is time for us to say something, not just to live in hope and wait for Goddot,
which will actually never come...

x86 is our destiny!

All the best,

D.

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