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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 18:58:29
#81 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@ferrels

Finally , the truth!



All the best,

D.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:36:24
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4912
From: New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
@ReverseGTR

x64 (Intel 64 and AMD64), yes.

CUDA is proprietary. OpenCL is a better option. Regardless, Hyperion would need to work with AMD, NVIDIA, Intel, and others to bring OpenCL hardware support to AmigaOS.

Fusion is a buzzword. It's AMD marketing speak for "at the moment, our GPUs aren't as capable as NVIDIA's, so we're optimizing for a shared CPU/GPU environment." In a way, that ties into OpenCL, which is portable in the same sense as OpenGL.


Right now OpenCL seems to be just a spec, without an implementation. I think that it's better to just wait until the big boys have fought their standards war, so that we can choose the one that works best.

Hans

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:38:55
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4912
From: New Zealand

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@AmiDelf2

Agreed.

If Amiga on x86 is so important, why doesn't AROS see more interest?

I honestly believe we can outdo the normal PCs with a new PPC SoC solution within 1-2 years.
Yes, I do. But we NEED to start looking at ways to offload computing to the GPU.

Seriously, why do we need ATIs support for this? It shouldn't be THAT hard to send code and textures to the shaders and use them as generic processors. YES, reading back the results will be slow on CURRENT hardware, but get going on the CONCEPT, and we shall have PCIe within a reasonable time frame.

more than 50% of the 3D capabilities of a brand spanking new PC comes from the graphics card. We can use that graphics card without using the rest of the PC. And needless to say it should be a shared effort across ALL Amiga platforms. This is not a competition.


Nice to see someone who understands my interest in getting newer Radeon cards supported. And yes, AMD have released the docs, so we don't need any more from them in order to make it happen. I just need more time for coding; once the RadeonHD driver has an appropriate API for submitting vertices/shaders, work could start on this. :-/

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 20-Mar-2009 at 07:40 PM.

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OldFart 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:41:42
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2925
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@eXec

Quote:
x86 is our destiny!

Yep! You're bloody well right! For our destiny, however much we try to outrun it, is our grave...

OldFart

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:44:37
#85 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@OldFart

Quote:

Remember this: innovation NEVER, EVER comes from abundant application of current crop of cheap and cheerfull parts in a new design. Whether you are going to be the constructor of an all new car, a laundrymachine or a computer: innovation comes from applying parts that are not common market (yet).


Unfortunately, absolutely nothing about OS4 is innovative. I still love my OS3 boxes, though.

Quote:

And then there is Linux, designed on i386, which is even free! Free as in beer. With a darn good portfolio of applications. But does it get much foothold in general? NO!


I take it you don't spend much time in corporate data centers. Linux on x86/x64 has all but replaced more expensive proprietary solutions from HP, IBM, Sun, and others, except in cases where a proprietary solution is required by the software.

Quote:

In short: Going x86 is a fullfledged licence to kill Amiga once and for good.


I agree, but not for the same reasons. If OS4 did something that other x86-based operating systems didn't already do better, it would make a difference. I don't like being so negative--I'm just as much of an Amiga fanboy as the rest of you lot--but OS4 is at least a decade behind everyone else in terms of operating system features.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:52:19
#86 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:

Right now OpenCL seems to be just a spec, without an implementation. I think that it's better to just wait until the big boys have fought their standards war, so that we can choose the one that works best.


I'm pretty sure both AMD and NVIDIA have demonstrated OpenCL implementations, and Apple is rolling into the next major release of OS X. AMD's implementation will probably be the most open, since their strategy covers multiple processor implementations. NVIDIA's is tied to CUDA--not a bad thing if you have CUDA support on your platform.

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bison 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:56:05
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@ferrels

Quote:
The PPC architecture will die because system developers and end-users have stopped buying it. As far as desktop systems go, it actually is dead except for the few SAM systems still being produced.

And lest anyone here forget, there's also the YDL PowerStation.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:57:21
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4912
From: New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
@Hans

Quote:

Right now OpenCL seems to be just a spec, without an implementation. I think that it's better to just wait until the big boys have fought their standards war, so that we can choose the one that works best.


I'm pretty sure both AMD and NVIDIA have demonstrated OpenCL implementations, and Apple is rolling into the next major release of OS X. AMD's implementation will probably be the most open, since their strategy covers multiple processor implementations. NVIDIA's is tied to CUDA--not a bad thing if you have CUDA support on your platform.


I didn't realize that. However, it's not available yet. Our best bet is to start support an open-source OpenCL effort, since we lack the resources to do everything ourselves. I really wish that I had more time to work on the RadeonHD drivers, because we need that before any of this stuff can be done.

Hans

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bison 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 19:59:10
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@eXec

Quote:
We are currently nothing more than living dynasours with a "holy grail" which we
want to keep just for us.

If this is the Holy Grail, then I fear we are in scene two: "Bring out your dead!"

(Awaiting the obligatory "I'm not dead yet!")

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Yssing 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 20:01:30
#90 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 996
From: Unknown

@eXec

What have you been drinking??

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Jupp3 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 20:36:04
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1223
From: Unknown

@eXec

Quote:
One big part of it is "emulated", to say wit other words, fictional...
Amiga was never Apple just like Apple was never Amiga,
so similar but such a difference...

Yes, but there are similarities. Both sides don't want their OS to be run on "generic" hardware but instead custom-built (=more expensive, but less so in Apple's case, due to higher sales) hardware. Be it PPC or X86.

And as I said, with Apple it works because they are rich and have a product with huge demand, while with "Amiga" it doesn't.

So hypothetical question, how much cheaper you would think Sam440 would be, if it had a X86 CPU instead of PPC? I agree, it would probably be cheaper, but not THAT much cheaper. And you might also want to consider the cost of porting aswell.

Also remember, the "lack of Amiga hardware" has NEVER been due to "unavailability of PPC hardware" but "unavailability of custom Amiga hardware", I don't think changing PPC to X86 would change that much.

On the other hand, Hyperion seems to be currently ignoring what Amiga inc. has been saying about porting to new hardware, but we will see where that will lead at the end of the court case. But this thread is not about speculating that.

Also considering that there's danger of losing ownership, I think it would be a VERY bad idea to start such big porting task for what might be "slightly less expensive custom hardware"

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 20:41:11
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Trev

Quote:
Fusion is a buzzword. It's AMD marketing speak for "at the moment, our GPUs aren't as capable as NVIDIA's, so we're optimizing for a shared CPU/GPU environment."

You're a bit out of date. AMD has a much stronger GPU lineup than NVidia, to the extent that NVidia's sales and margins have collapsed over the last six months. They are resorting to re-naming their old mid-range GPUs to make them appear new and selling some of their high-end parts at a loss to try and compete with AMD.

When AMD rolls out it's RV740 and RV790 GPUs next month - chips to which Nvidia has no answer in the near-term - the gap will just get wider. It's rapidly becoming realistic to question if NVidia can survive as an independent entity. They're bleeding money, their GPU technology is falling further and further behind AMD, their chipset division is all but dead, and they are facing the possibility of massive liabilities after shipping defective GPUs. They're also locked out of the future CPU/GPU fusion market, of course, and that may turn out to be a very big market indeed.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:16:32
#93 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@DrBombcrater

I based my interpetation on AMD's Fusion literature, and yes, Fusion is a marketing term. There is no distinct "fusion market." Software already leverages both the host CPU and any additional CPUs--DSPs, GPUs, whatever--in the system. AMD just put a pretty word around it to build brand loyalty and get the technopundits tweating.

Both AMD and NVIDIA offer compelling graphics products, and NVIDIA has done an admirable job marketing their processors for general purpose parallel computing.

Now, if we talk about fusion in tems of the future of AMD's CPU and GPU products, then yes, it doesn't necessarily make sense for AMD to keep them separapte. Why not put a massively parallel coprocessor on the same silicon as every Athlon (or whatever) that leaves the fab? The only drawback is that it will only work as long as AMD remains the underdog. Any attempt by Intel to do the same would have the US Department of Justice knocking on their door.

If any of comments seem to lean way or the other, e.g. more in favor of NVIDIA, it's really just a product of hasty writing. I do my best to stay objective.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:19:13
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3945
From: Australia

@DrBombcrater

To be fair, NVIDIA is also shifting to TSMC’s 40nm. As for CPU/GPU fusion market, NVIDIA has Tegra i.e. ARM+Geforce ULV. In the last conference call, NVIDIA plans for X86+GPU fusion. One could build a cGPU with ARM ISA with GPU enhancements.

Anyway, ARM software development tool chain is well supported in X86 world.

Nintendo Wii’s ATI Hollywood already integrates ARM+ATI GPU.

PS; Under 24 months warranty, my laptop's dead Geforce 8600M GT 256MB VRAM (purchased in 2007 Q3) was replaced with Geforce 9500M GS 512MB VRAM.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Mar-2009 at 10:27 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Mar-2009 at 10:24 PM.

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:25:20
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:
I agree, but not for the same reasons. If OS4 did something that other x86-based operating systems didn't already do better, it would make a difference. I don't like being so negative--I'm just as much of an Amiga fanboy as the rest of you lot--but OS4 is at least a decade behind everyone else in terms of operating system features.


I partly agree, and partly disagree. None of the mainstream OS'es (Windows, MacOS, Linux) even come close to OS4's responsiveness. When I had some people from work over they were amazed at the fact that applications start within a second, and everything responds instantly, and their jaws dropped when I told them that this is only on an 800MHz CPU. This is a very big advantage. On the other hand I agree that when it comes to "what you can do with it", it's still lacking in many areas. However most of that is due to lack of applications or drivers, and not missing OS features.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:37:27
#96 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Trev

Quote:
I based my interpetation on AMD's Fusion literature, and yes, Fusion is a marketing term. There is no distinct "fusion market."

I'm just using 'fusion' as a generic term for any CPU/GPU hybrid processor since there's no other convenient name for them at the moment. There will be a fusion market for sure, although the chips will probably integrate much more than the CPU and GPU and resemble a pumped-up SoC more than anything else.

Quote:
Why not put a massively parallel coprocessor on the same silicon as every Athlon (or whatever) that leaves the fab? The only drawback is that it will only work as long as AMD remains the underdog. Any attempt by Intel to do the same would have the US Department of Justice knocking on their door.

Intel has such chips on its roadmap for early next year and has already shown off working samples. How much 'fusion' there will be between the CPU and GPU components remains to be seen since Intel's graphics cores are laughably terrible, it may just be a case of putting two functionally seperate elements on the same die. AMD is approaching this as a method of enhancing performance, while Intel seems to be doing it to get base-level graphics into low-end PCs as cheaply as possible.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:44:52
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@COBRA

Oh, I agree that the user experience on current mainstream operating systems leaves something to be desired, but running Windows NT 4.0 on an ~800 MHz Pentium II will look just as peppy as OS4. And really, the CPU is just one small part of a system's overall performance, as evidenced by overall system responsiveness in Windows Vista.

You've only got an ~300ms window to get something done before the average person notices a delay. (And ~62.5ms if you want persistence of vision or whatever you want to call it these days.) If you're going to take longer than that, you need to have something else going on to keep the user occupied and distracted. This is where the psychology of user interfaces comes into play and why I think progress bars are only loosely coupled to how much progress has actually been made.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:47:47
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

Intel has such chips on its roadmap for early next year and has already shown off working samples. How much 'fusion' there will be between the CPU and GPU components remains to be seen since Intel's graphics cores are laughably terrible, it may just be a case of putting two functionally seperate elements on the same die. AMD is approaching this as a method of enhancing performance, while Intel seems to be doing it to get base-level graphics into low-end PCs as cheaply as possible.


I didn't know that. Expect NVIDIA to cry foul. I can the next interation of Intel's Atom processor going that route. A very small, very low power integrated package would be very compelling, regardless of which vendor ships it.

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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 22:54:35
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:
Oh, I agree that the user experience on current mainstream operating systems leaves something to be desired, but running Windows NT 4.0 on an ~800 MHz Pentium II will look just as peppy as OS4.


Then you've obviously never used OS4 on an AmigaOne or Pegasos2. (FYI I used plenty of such systems at work before they got upgraded and no, they were nevery nearly as responsive as OS4 on hardware of similar performance).

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 23:11:53
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3945
From: Australia

@Trev

One problem, Intel has to battle a creditable 'clone army' i.e. ARM. The X86’s 'clone army' strength will be put to the test against another 'clone army'. ARM is not just another RISC ISA.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Mar-2009 at 11:14 PM.

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