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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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KimmoK 
SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 7:19:58
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Is there a plan of when shutdown will be implemented in AOS4?

I think it would be nice if AOS4 could be told to shutdown & remember apps that were running & files that were open & do backup with a one/two mouse clicks or by the press of ATX power button. etc...

Also... perhaps there also could be "snapshot" possibility as well. It would let user to "record" apps that were running & files that were open, like with shutdown, except that shutdown would not be done this time. If AOS4 crashes, then user could go back to the recorded restore point.

((This kind of features also would be a step towards making hibernation/sleep modes unnecessary. I think.))

or ??

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 07:21 AM.

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K-L 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 7:54:21
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1387
From: Oullins, France

@KimmoK

I don't want this option at all. What I like with the Amiga is the possibility to shut down my machine whenever I want and this can be done just by switching off the button.

I'm fed up with all these manipulations to turn off the other operating systems.

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Yabba 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 8:12:57
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@K-L

I am not sure if you read KimmoK's post properly. What he wanted to have was a way to shutdown his system and then power it on again and get back to the same state as he was when he shut it down. If you just want to yank the power cord whenever you want to leave your computer, that's fine, but it does not mean that you should have to start from a clean screen every time you start your computer.

rgds,
Stefan

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Varthall 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 8:13:23
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Feb-2004
Posts: 1554
From: Up Rough

@KimmoK

I'd like to have that too, it would be very handy to have the system return to the state when you switched it off, although this would require the apps to send info to the OS on what file was open.

@K-L
What he described wasn't really a shutdown procedure, but rather a "save OS state" feature with or without switchoff which would be done *only* upon request, it wouldn't be compulsory.

Varthall

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 8:58:48
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@KimmoK
I already saw Hibernation implemented for OS3 (it was a *big* hack!), where the entire memory was written to disk, so maybe possible for OS4 too, but would be very difficult at least.

Regarding "snapshot", I guess you mean like Firefox remembers what tabs were open? That would be great for OWB, but I think it has to be done on a "per app" basis.

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BigD 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:07:21
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5770
From: UK

@KimmoK

Quote:
I think it would be nice if AOS4 could be told to shutdown & remember apps that were running & files that were open & do backup with a one/two mouse clicks or by the press of ATX power button. etc...


Yeah, like a hibernation function! Makes sense, however, part of the simplicity of the Amiga systems is just saving your work and pushing the power button seconds later so that you can catch the bus/hand in the assignment/get on with your life, rather than stomaching the dreaded "Windows is Shutting Down" message!

Saying that, hibernation modes save power when you're away from your desk and I use the 'Sleep' mode on the Mac all the time (partly because it blinks the light on the front of the Mac to look like it's really sleeping - cute)!

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:44:43
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@ChrisH

"Regarding "snapshot", I guess you mean like Firefox remembers what tabs were open? That would be great for OWB, but I think it has to be done on a "per app" basis."

Yes, it should be built in apps.
AOS4 would send the application "savesnapshot" and "shutdown" message and application would do it's trick. If the app does not respond in about 0,25 second, it's killed. We want to be efficient after all.

(once memory protection is fully used, OS back up plan would be to freeze the stubborn application and save the RAM image to HDD)

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:48:52
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@BigD

IMO: "my" shutdown/snapshot would be more safe than hibernation, for example if power gets cut off accidentally. And it should/could be faster than traditional x86 sleepmode because whole memory is not saved to disk.

And for a system without memory protection, the sleep mode does not make sense anyway, because also the possibly corrupted data would be saved to disk.


From my experience in high quality RTOS systems, clean reboot is always the best option to start another day.

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 10:50 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:53:15
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@K-L

On "my" idea the shutdown would be optional and fully configureable.

"Wait disk activity to finish" is needed anyway.
Currently the user has to do that (and save all ongoing work).

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 10:53 AM.

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Deniil715 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:53:40
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4206
From: Sweden

@KimmoK

I like that idea!

I absolutely hate to always having to start from a clean desktop everytime I have to reboot (which is sometimes often during development). If we had this feature I could switch off (or hibernate) my Amiga at night and during workdays and save a lot of electricity, but since we don't have it, and don't have the Unix/Linux functionality of saving the desktop state either I have to let it run 24/7 or I would get absolutely no programming done.

I need to be able to sit down with the computer with all windows already opened or I would not remember what I was supposed to do next.

It doesn't matter how fast it boots and how fast apps can be started, my memory is still slow as h3ll.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 10:57:08
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Deniil715

...
"with all windows already opened" ...
"my memory is still slow as h3ll."

Sounds familiar.


This could also help people to loose less work, because all work on all apps could be saved with one click on an icon or powerbutton or whatever one likes best.
If done properly, it could be done also automatically (when user I/o has been idle for the pre defined time), if user desires so.

I think it is the Amiga way to not to ristrict/force the user to some specific way of doing their own work/hobby, the absolute opposite of Apple.

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 10:58 AM.

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Hypex 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 13:06:41
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10161
From: Greensborough, Australia

@KimmoK

Quote:
I think it would be nice if AOS4 could be told to shutdown & remember apps that were running & files that were open & do backup with a one/two mouse clicks or by the press of ATX power button. etc...


I must say that although I hated this idea I do agree with you! Sometimes there is too much free will in AmigaOS and with switching off or even rebooting one can forget to save work or check what is on other screens. Being able to signal this warning would be good to have all the other programs save their work or ask what to do.

Now, I have thought about this in the past and I think it would be hard to do. The first reason is that we may still be using 68k apps that have no idea about this system. However, provided the good ones have an Arexx port, we can make use of this to send the QUIT signal.

I also think such a shutdown system should be optional and not a mandatory, just to satisfy the Amigans out there. A ####down menu item could be a good start.

Quote:
Also... perhaps there also could be "snapshot" possibility as well. It would let user to "record" apps that were running & files that were open


Now that is very advanced!

Finally: I'll give you a

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Chain-Q 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 13:18:48
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 821
From: Budapest, Hungary

@KimmoK
Quote:
Is there a plan of when shutdown will be implemented in AOS4?

Perhaps, this is Hyperion's MAP. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

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amigauser 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 13:30:33
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 100
From: Unknown

i dunno why people complain about the shutdown in windows, i have always just turned it off with a flick of a switch, it is fast and easy and i have never had any problems with this.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:07:58
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@amigauser

You have not used Windows for other than games?

btw. it's fun that not even windows (XP) itself knows how to shut himself/herself off.
often if I shut it down by powerbutton (sw shutdown) windows does it's things ok, but it nags me at the next boot up that I've not shut it down properly. -> scandisk The world most braindead OS tech (tm).

Also Linux is weird. It does not break anything while shutting down (only locks up sometimes), but never the less, it needs to do it's "scandisk" sometimes.

Both need to be observed untill the box is totally silent, then it is also wise to jank the power cord off the wall (for example some dells boot up after power cut, even if they were shut down before the power cut/brake). It means that one must spend extra minute just waiting for nothing.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:12:25
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Deniil715 Quote:
I absolutely hate to always having to start from a clean desktop everytime I have to reboot (which is sometimes often during development). ... I have to let it run 24/7 or I would get absolutely no programming done.

Heh heh, I know what you mean. I often end-up finish programming very late because I don't want to stop in the middle of what I'm doing & loose all the files I have open in CygnusEd, as then I'd have a hell of a job trying to pick-up where I left off. If CEd could save it's state, that would be AWESOME.

Maybe once Sam440's memory-eating bug is fixed, I can just leave it switched-on overnight like you!

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:17:17
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@amigauser
If you do that when Windows is writing to the registry, you will probably kill Windows. If you wait for no disk activity, then you are *probably* safe, but that is no guarantee. As Vista does disk activity all the time (in the background), you can't do that "safely" in Vista.

Also, Windows *only* does some things when it is shutdown. For example, the desktop icon positions are only saved when you shut down.

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

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amigauser 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:20:42
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 100
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

i dont play games i always save my work before i shutdown... i have a switch on my power surge, when i hit that windows is turned of in 0.5 second. then i can do other thing without waiting for the pc to shutdown. i have done this for years without any problems.

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BigD 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:26:18
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5770
From: UK

@KimmoK

Quote:
It means that one must spend extra minute just waiting for nothing.


This is the worst cumulative waste of human time in the last 20 years simply waiting to be sure a PC has powered off! If Commodore had used this problem as marketing fodder this stupid computer tradition would never have become tolerated and commonplace! Switch off should be via a mechanical power button. I really resent Mac OSX giving me 2 minutes to change my mind after deciding to 'Shut Down'! Is there a way to change this?

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amigauser 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:32:33
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 100
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

i have turned it of with a flick of a switch now since ealy days of winxp, with no problem at all. if i use this register application you talk about i will just save my work, problem solved no windows killed.

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