@Leo

"Amiga users have always been against innovation and change."

Unnecessary insult. And not true.

Usually if people have things like they want, they have resistance towards change.

It is the job of inventors/innovators to convince the nay sayers.

IMO:
On this thread I have tried to convince oldschool Amigans that shutdown can be 100% good feature.
And some windows shutdown/suspendtoRAM/suspendtodisk fans I try to convince that the windows product might not be the ultimate solution. And that we can improve on it.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 03:34 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Swoop

"Save your open docs to WBstartup"

Nice thinking!

but:
1) wbstartup drawer is being replaced
2) your way might work but it would need more user effort
3) files would later need to be removed manually from the wbstartup dir


"couldn't we use existing AmigaOS methods?"

Ofcourse we must remember what we have and what we can use.
Also we must consider what extra we have, when compared to mainstream solution.

When OS can start in 4 ... 30 seconds, there is no real need for suspendtoRAM or suspendtoHDD, if we get the same result in same or less time. (+extra benefits)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK
Resident naysayers on AW: Leo, Arko and Kronos (first 3 that come to mind but there are others). Go find their posts and will always find buckets of sh*it thrown at AmigaOS, Acube and in certain instances, at "Amiga" in general.

Will they ever leave us be I wonder...

Last edited by DAX on 02-Dec-2009 at 03:35 PM.

_________________
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@DAX

Sometimes nay sayers are good to have !

For example when I get the creative mood, I need reality checks etc.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 03:46 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK
Yes but remember, even in creative mood, you are not deciding the fate of the world, you are just speculating among friends...

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

I think this thread clearly demostrates why AmigaOS 4.x is still held back by "legacy". The community's inablility to accept that things have to move on is what is holding it back.

Until a clean break can be made, and modern features implemented, nothing is going to change with regard to including some of the "convenient for the user" stuff.

You either want to move forward, or you want to keep 20 year old behaviour.

Simon

_________________
Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

@rigo

while I'm all for a "go forward" I also think the "drop this it's 20 years old, it's obsolete" is not good either. *Some* 20 years old behaviors are still more convenient than latest up-to-date-top-notch-hyped-features. For example there is no OS I know of that implement *by default* the ability to control the mouse by the keyboard this something I find very convenient the rare moment when I'm doing drawings because it's *always* more accurate than with mouse. The ASL requester while showing its age (graphically) still is not equaled if you'd ask me : ability to end the requester before the whole directory is scanned is convenient for saving purpose or when you know the name of the file you want to load (I'm speaking about OS 4.0 ASL requester, because public OS 4.1 one loosed that ability but I'm sure it was a mistake and it will be there again in upcoming update), ability to drag and drop a file from the WB into it to automatically select that file other OSes tend to think we want to copy the file into the currently displayed directory (sic!)...
What I wanted to say is advance is always good but don't drop good ideas just because others are doing differently or just because of the age.

_________________
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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

@abalaban

I said nothing about dropping good ideas, unless you think being able to pull the power at any time and expecting a safe system on a restart is a good idea...

What I'm saying is that hanging on to past exploits will hold back development, simple as that. There's stuff I'd like to be able to implement, but can't because the root functionality would be frowned on.

A typical example is users locking their SYS: partition because their paranoia is so extreme that they think something might write to their disk without asking them *sigh*

All in all, we're stuck in the eighties because of of the lack of acceptance to new ways, not because of the talent behind it.

Simon

_________________
Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

two examples of how to not to do hibernation or sleep mode:

Today I closed the lid of my laptop (Dell MM4400) and went to a meeting. I woke up winXP and noticed that M$ excance server did not accept connections from Outlook any more (did not accept password etc.). After I got back to my work position I tried again, no luck. I had to go through 30 open e-mails & close Outlook and then reboot (there was also a pending reboot because of security update) after the reboot I had to start to get back to my work task. I lost over 1hour of work time in the process.

At home I told Ubuntu 9.04 to suspend to disk and after it did it (30seconds or so) closed the lid of my home laptop (acer 1360 orwhatever). Later when I wanted to continue, linux started but failed to initialize the laptop display. Password ->nothing ctrl+alt+f1 -> nothing, click on powerbutton, nothing, 10 second push of the powerbutton-> power off & I lost what I was doing.


If those OSs had the clevershutdownwithsaveallwhatever feature that I've been describing, I would not have had neither of those insidents.
(also the XP security update would have been possible without me needing to restart work, same tomorrow, the SP3 distribution is coming, OH G*D I wish it had clevershutdownetcblahblah feature)



more about it...
Because AOS4 native application base is still very small and almost 100% of the native apps are being maintained, the clevershutdownwithsave should be specified NOW, so that application developers could start to get it into account. If this is not done now, we might end up where windows and linux are = we would have less options.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 06:46 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@abalaban

I agree with Rigo's point, but I'm going to comment on some of yours just for fun.

Quote:

For example there is no OS I know of that implement *by default* the ability to control the mouse by the keyboard ...

Modern operating systems follow modern accessibility standards, whether they're mandated by law or just accepted practices. Most if not all operating systems provide some way to enable keyboard mouse emulation using only the keyboard. Linux is the exception, I think, given its lack (or multitude, depending on your point of view) of standards.

Quote:

... ability to end the requester before the whole directory is scanned ...

In general, any multi-threaded or properly written single-threaded file system requester should be able to do this, Windows common dialog controls included. In most cases, though, it takes less time to load and display the entire contents of a directory than it does to list the items one at a time. Obviously, directories withs hundreds of thousands or millions of files might be "slow," but that has more to do with data management (a user task) than operating system deficiencies. If and when someone finally implements them properly, relational file systems will do away with most of the directory nonsense.

Quote:

... ability to drag and drop a file from the WB into it to automatically select that file other OSes tend to think we want to copy the file into the currently displayed directory ...

Most operating systems treat every directory listing as an actual interface to that directory. It's consistent. Also in most operating systems, you can drag an object to the text box below the directory listing, and it will be populated with the text representation of the object. I agree that there's probably a better way to do this, but it would need to keep both drag-and-drop semantics and user interface consistency in mind.

Quote:

What I wanted to say is advance is always good but don't drop good ideas just because others are doing differently or just because of the age.

Cheers to that, but AmigaOS (and to a greater extent, computing in general) is sorely in need of some new good ideas.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@KimmoK

Eventually, we'll have inexpensive nonvolatile memory devices that are just as fast as today's volatile memory devices. Until then, tricks like suspend-to-disk will still be necessary. Re: your network and display problems, it's either hardware or the driver controlling the hardware. The operating system just says, "Hey, driver. I'm entering state Sn. Do your thing." And then the network, display, whatever driver is supposed to put its hardware in a state appropriate for Sn.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Trev

>Eventually, we'll have inexpensive nonvolatile memory devices that are just as fast as today's volatile memory devices.

So? By that time everything has changed.

>Until then, tricks like suspend-to-disk will still be necessary.

WHY?
If it as fast or faster to do shutdown+restart and end up to exactly same state (from user viewpoint).

> Re: your network and display problems, it's either hardware or the driver controlling the hardware. The operating system just says, "Hey, driver. I'm entering state Sn. Do your thing." And then the network, display, whatever driver is supposed to put its hardware in a state appropriate for Sn.

It does not matter.
The point is that we sould do it better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 07:01 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@abalaban

I agree on a lot of things you mentioned.

Also "retry" button seems like a good amiga standard. On windows sometimes it feels that other than OK has been too hard for M$+win application programmers to implement.

Windows rhapsody example: "please save all your work before you click OK. OK? " + click OH NOOOOO!
Hmmm.... I should post the screenshot one day, it's a modern classic.


But it's offtopic. Lets think about shutdown procedure.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 06:59 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

So? By that time everything has changed.

In AmigaOS? I doubt it.

Quote:

WHY? If it as fast or faster to do shutdown+restart and end up to exactly same state (from user viewpoint).

How exactly would you implement it? Be technical. Others have touched on some very specific issues, e.g. display adapter register state, and standards like ACPI represent coordinated efforts by hardware and software vendors to resolve those issues.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@KimmoK

Quote:

Suspend to RAM is the most unreliable thing to do. (often WinXP fails to re-initialize display afterwards, especially if video projector or another monitor was used before/after, etc. etc.) (then comes sleep mode that saves whole gigabytes of used RAM to disk, without flushing caches etc. before freezing, slow, limitting, etc..)

Really? Last time it failed here it was a faulty GFX card driver. It's never happened even on the EEE PC I have over here that *constantly* gets connected to different display devices and is then put to sleep and is disconnected.

_________________

@Trev

>In AmigaOS?

"in the computing world" around suspendtoHDD (RAM, buses,architecture,UDMA,APU,Linux,Win, ....)


>>WHY?
>>If it as fast or faster to do shutdown+restart and end up to exactly same state (from user viewpoint).

>How exactly would you implement it? Be technical.

I think I already have tried to be.
But I will have to summarise stuff.
Then we can improve on it.

in the meanwhile and in short:

- something like how ubuntu saves applicasion information when shutting down and booting up Ubuntu 9.10, except faster & more user options

Ubuntu can be told to remember what I was running when I shut down (with window positions etc.). Then I think that it is built into applications of how to save their data and reopen in next start.
For example, if I now shut down and tomorrow boot up, I see this same window & thread on screen, except that the data will be fresh.

The implementation in linux just is slow, the linux way.

I'll try something on this 9.04 Xubuntu ... to leave this firefox open and some document+edit and try SWrestart....

UPDATE: it works pretty well

I get same linux desktop with same programs in same places.
Firefow remembers the web page and place in the web page. (99% clevershutdown support already) ;-P
xubuntu notepadthingy did not save my edit, otherwise it is in the same place on screen etc...
Window order was not restored.
It all happened in less time than WinXP only boots, only "little slower" than suspendtodisk, only little worse because nopepad did not have the support like firefox did, more reliable than suspendtodisk.
Implemented in icAROS on this same machine the same trick could be something like 20x faster?

etc. dancing bananas, anyone?


So it's very doable.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 07:48 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 07:43 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 07:36 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@DAX

Quote:

Resident naysayers on AW: Leo, Arko and Kronos (first 3 that come to mind but there are others). Go find their posts and will always find buckets of sh*it thrown at AmigaOS, Acube and in certain instances, at "Amiga" in general.

Add me to that list on this one, I agree with them 100% on this issue and as I can see in the thread so do several AmigaOS developers....

Last edited by Zardoz on 02-Dec-2009 at 08:15 PM.

_________________

@KimmoK

Quote:

Today I closed the lid of my laptop (Dell MM4400) and went to a meeting. I woke up winXP and noticed that M$ excance server did not accept connections from Outlook any more (did not accept password etc.).

But you can disable sleep/hibernation feature if you dont like it.

Quote:

At home I told Ubuntu 9.04 to suspend to disk and after it did it (30seconds or so) closed the lid of my home laptop (acer 1360 orwhatever). Later when I wanted to continue, linux started but failed to initialize the laptop display. Password ->nothing ctrl+alt+f1 -> nothing, click on powerbutton, nothing, 10 second push of the powerbutton-> power off & I lost what I was doing.

Happened to me with XP. Annoying but...

Quote:

The point is that we sould do it better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But we dont. There is no any kind of hibernation or sleep support in any Amiga.

But then chances that it would work better on Amiga are quite limited. If you are unlucky there is quite good chance that your system restore point was saved right before major crash. Since there is no memory protection it is possible hibernation/sleep mode invokes a major bug in the system.

_________________
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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@KimmoK

What you want then is a standard like ACPI, only for software; however, rather than have the operating system inform each application that the system is powering off, you want the applications to essentially move from one atomic static state to the next. When an application fails because power was removed from the system, you want the application to automatically return to its last known good state upon restoration of power.

Since the operating system is responsible for starting processes, it too will have to maintain some sort of atomic state in order to restore your applications. If the operating system already has to do it, why make the applications do it? The entire operation should be abstracted away and managed by the operating system, hence ACPI.

Loss of power, either accidentally or intentionally, is a catastrophic event. If every system change--even moving the mouse from (50, 237) to (50, 238)--were atomic, i.e. it either succeeded 100% or not at all, it could work. I doubt, however, that every AmigaOS application developer has the necessary engineering kung fu to make that happen. So again, it begs to be handled by the operating system.

EDIT: I've used "atomic" and "static" almost interchangeably. What I mean to say is that each state is static, and every transition between states is atomic.

Last edited by Trev on 02-Dec-2009 at 08:01 PM.

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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@itix

>But you can disable sleep/hibernation feature if you dont like it.

Yes, yes. But it does not make sleep/hibernation any better.

>>The point is that we sould do it better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>But we dont. There is no any kind of hibernation or sleep support in any Amiga

I know, the let's do it.
Lets do it better already first time.

>But then chances that it would work better on Amiga are quite limited.

Let's try anyway. (IIRC, MOS has fast shutdown already, does it not?)

>If you are unlucky there is quite good chance that your system restore point was saved right before major crash.

Still better than nothing.
And clean start + apps reloading + datareloading can help to avoid the major crash again.

>Since there is no memory protection it is possible hibernation/sleep mode invokes a major bug in the system.

Yes. That's why suspendtodisk or suspendtoRAM seems futile on Amiga without memoryprotection.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?