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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 14:34:05
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@ChrisH

I noticed that also some disk caches are flushed to disk only in shutdown and that makes sleep mode very dangerous.
(recently I had saved about 20 documents in windows, but they did not appear to HDD before I did shutdown, If I did sleep and booted to linux, files did not show up)

And ofcourse, if I do hard power off, I lose my saved (but cached) documents totally.

(and on Amiga, one can get the data from cache even after crash/reboot, now how cool is that!, but ofcourse avoiding the crash would be even cooler)

One strange example of sleepmode at work: edited documents remain "open" untill the editing person revives ones PC from sleep!!! Your work can be blocked for hours/days with no sane reason.


better not sleep at work.

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 04:32 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 04:30 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 02:39 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Nov-2009 at 02:38 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 16:35:02
#22 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@amigauser
Windows has several HUGE files for storing lots of critical information. This is called the "registry". So it is not just ONE program that modifies the registry - it is ALL of them, AND Windows itself too.

So if any of your programs (or Windows) happens to be modifying the registry when you switch-off (without shutting down), then you severly risk killing Windows itself. (I think that Microsoft may have attempted to protect against this kind of damage from happening, but it still does happen, at least sometimes, so it clearly isn't foolproof.)

As I said, if you wait for disk activity to stop, then you are probably OK, which may be why you got away with it. But one of these days I suspect you will get a nasty surprise - Windows will fail to start when you turn your PC on

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Kicko 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 16:38:29
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

/offtopic

i just want usb2 drivers

end of offtopic\

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 16:45:54
#24 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Kicko
I guess we might get USB2 drivers in OS4.1 update *2* (unless update 1 is delayed enough for it to get into that).

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bernd_afa 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 17:00:43
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@KimmoK
>noticed that also some disk caches are flushed to disk only in shutdown and that >makes sleep mode very dangerous.
>(recently I had saved about 20 documents in windows, but they did not appear to >HDD before I did shutdown, If I did sleep and booted to linux, files did not show up)

if you copy lots data, (some 100 files or large files) and then do hypernate, when the program show copy action is finish, its possible that not all data is written and boot another OS and access data here can realy dangerous.

because of a large and long copy action windows cache grow lot and the copy option is sooner ready as all datas are written.

so you need always take a look at harddrive light when you know that you done before a larger copy action, want suspend and restore another OS.

if Harddrive light is off more than 3 sec and your system is idle then its always sure that all data are written to disk.

but anyway most users dont use diffrent OS, Linux run nice on virtual machine, there is colinux so you need not boot a new OS.

The future is more and more run all OS run together on same Hardware at same time.

that apps cant run together problem was solved with multitasking.
and that OS cant run together, Problem was solved with Virtual machine

Last edited by bernd_afa on 30-Nov-2009 at 05:04 PM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 30-Nov-2009 at 05:02 PM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 30-Nov-2009 at 05:02 PM.

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Deniil715 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 17:06:10
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4206
From: Sweden

@ChrisH

Quote:
If CEd could save it's state, that would be AWESOME.


CubicIDE can save projects AFAIK.
Soon can Annotate too I hope

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 20:47:11
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@bernd_afa

"if Harddrive light is off more than 3 sec and your system is idle then its always sure that all data are written to disk."

That is not enough. Windows does not behave according to any sane logic.
After something like 4 hours of me converting .ppt files (linked images, etc.) to a more portable format (for open office) windows had not managed to save those files. They were visible in file explorer etc. but could not be seen outside windows (when windows was put to sleep and the directory was then accessed from Linux). Only after going back to windows and shutting it down, those files really appeared on the hard disk. Scary fifth hour. Taught a lot.

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Petah 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 20:52:30
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 419
From: EU <3 ❤️

Quote:
Is there a plan of when shutdown will be implemented in AOS4?

AmigaOS developer Olaf `Olsen' Barthel is the author of shutdown.library which can be downloaded straight off Aminet along with full source code. The library is currently supported by - among others - AROS, the ShapeShifter Macintosh emulator and the Voodoo e-mail client.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 20:56:04
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@KimmoK

Quote:
IMO: "my" shutdown/snapshot would be more safe than hibernation, for example if power gets cut off accidentally. And it should/could be faster than traditional x86 sleepmode because whole memory is not saved to disk.


Better yet, OS4 should be able to guess what tasks I want to complete--e.g. writing a device driver, editing a video, writing a letter to Grandma--and then complete them at power on. That would save me so much time!

In all seriousness, you can't protect against accidental power loss without some form of nonvolatile memory or redundant power supply. This is why write caching disk controllers have batteries.

Hibernating by saving and restoring the system state is a perfectly reasonable approach. If writing to mechanical disks is too slow, switch to solid state disks.

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 21:09:48
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

I don't want this option at all. What I like with the Amiga is the possibility to shut down my machine whenever I want and this can be done just by switching off the button.

What if your email program is receving an email while you power your computer off ?
What if your webbrowser is writing something down to disk while you power it off ?

In the 1985, when you only had a floppy drive, you just had to be sure the floppy led was off to power it off safely... Nowadays, it's not that easy anymore. Be it Amiga, or whatever operating system, programs constantly write stuff to disk. Powering it down by hand isn't safe.

It's a needed feature.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 21:12:36
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ChrisH

Quote:
Windows has several HUGE files for storing lots of critical information. This is called the "registry". So it is not just ONE program that modifies the registry - it is ALL of them, AND Windows itself too.


Not every process uses the registry directly.

You're dealing with different layers of consistency here. First and foremost, your disk subsystem must be stable. On top of that, the file system (if you're using NTFS) ensures consistency (through journaling) when writing data to disk.

As noted by myself and others, it's still possible to lose data if you have write caching enabled. Unless you have an uninterruptible power supply, I suggest leaving write caching disabled. This is usually managed by your HBA driver.

Windows can't control an application's use of file and registry data, however, so it's up to the application to ensure consistency. Windows Vista introduced the Kernel Transaction Manager to allow transaction-based changes to both files (on NTFS) and registry keys.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

Last edited by Trev on 30-Nov-2009 at 09:13 PM.

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persia 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 21:24:37
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@Trev

On Mac's the plist files in the /library/preferences folder and the ~user/library/preferences folder are the equivalent to MS Windows registry. What would you say the equivalent is in Linux? in AmigaOS?

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DWolfman 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 22:22:43
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Kansas City, MO USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
This is the worst cumulative waste of human time in the last 20 years simply waiting to be sure a PC has powered off! If Commodore had used this problem as marketing fodder this stupid computer tradition would never have become tolerated and commonplace! Switch off should be via a mechanical power button. I really resent Mac OSX giving me 2 minutes to change my mind after deciding to 'Shut Down'! Is there a way to change this?


Heh, I agree.

And that's exactly why on some of my PCs, I leave them on 24/7 and set up a Scheduled Task to reboot it for me every so often, usually at a time when I'm not using it anyway.

I never worry about how long it takes to shutdown and start back up unless it's really screwy when I'm using it.

My laptop is set to hibernate the machine when I close the lid. I would actually like to have a Hibernate option in Amiga OS, as I have run into some of those same situations of having lots of stuff open and the program I was developing crashed the system.

But, then I might not get to see the same uptimes like I have now. My A1 with OS 4.1 was up to over 22 days since the last reboot when I looked at it last night.

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DWolfman 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 22:31:36
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Kansas City, MO USA

@amigauser

Quote:

amigauser wrote:
@ChrisH

i have turned it of with a flick of a switch now since ealy days of winxp, with no problem at all. if i use this register application you talk about i will just save my work, problem solved no windows killed.


Actually, the default Windows config since at least XP (maybe even 95 or 98) is to not have the Power button force the power off immediately, but to just send an event signal to the system that Windows then operates on by going through it's shutdown process. I've done this myself, but had to chastise my children over holding the power button until it shuts off (ATX specs, hold it for 4 seconds and it forces the power off, like pulling the plug).

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DWolfman 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 22:40:04
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Kansas City, MO USA

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
That is not enough. Windows does not behave according to any sane logic.
After something like 4 hours of me converting .ppt files (linked images, etc.) to a more portable format (for open office) windows had not managed to save those files. They were visible in file explorer etc. but could not be seen outside windows (when windows was put to sleep and the directory was then accessed from Linux). Only after going back to windows and shutting it down, those files really appeared on the hard disk. Scary fifth hour. Taught a lot.


Or if you are like me and have a virtual machine running in VirtualBox...

I've had to create some custom scripting to make sure that when my main box is shutdown or restarted that it at least does a "hibernate"-like function built in to VirtualBox so it doesn't kill the Server 2008R2 install in the virtual machine. Less headaches that way.

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Hans 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 30-Nov-2009 23:16:49
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
Hibernating by saving and restoring the system state is a perfectly reasonable approach. If writing to mechanical disks is too slow, switch to solid state disks.


In order to do this safely, our drivers should support being shut-down cleanly. You can't save a PCI device's state, and then push write all of the registers back again later. I don't know if this is supported at present. Maybe there is some other method, but for sure, the driver's state (including its memory allocations) can't simply be spooled to disk along with everything else.

Hans

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:13:36
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:
In order to do this safely, our drivers should support being shut-down cleanly. You can't save a PCI device's state, and then push write all of the registers back again later. I don't know if this is supported at present. Maybe there is some other method, but for sure, the driver's state (including its memory allocations) can't simply be spooled to disk along with everything else.


The definition of "system state" would be left to the implementer. In the case of display adapter, I think it's safe to assume the display is simply reinitialized. Restored applications can be asked to redraw their windows. Or something like that. EDIT: Windows implements this using system and driver support for ACPI S4 (suspend-to-disk).

On the other hand, top-tier virtualization solutions can move virtual machines between live hosts, and in the case of network services, clients don't even know the move took place. It's not a stretch to ask why we can't do that at the desktop level. As we move to the hypervisor being the base for all systems, I expect great things.

Speaking of virtualization, here's an interesting little piece on display adapters and how hypervisors deal with performance issues. It's from a knowledgable Microsoft guy, but it's applicable to all virtualization solutions: http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archive/2009/11/16/understanding-high-end-video-performance-issues-with-hyper-v.aspx

Last edited by Trev on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:23 AM.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:16:30
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@persia

On Linux and other Unixes (including Mac OS X), it's /etc. On the Amiga, who knows. Everyone does their own thing. SYS:Prefs, maybe? After poking around AmigaOS 4 a bit, though, I think my system would be in big trouble if a few key .info files went missing.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:19:29
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@BigD

Quote:
Switch off should be via a mechanical power button. I really resent Mac OSX giving me 2 minutes to change my mind after deciding to 'Shut Down'! Is there a way to change this?


I can shut down my MacBook Pro via the power button, and regardless of how I shut down, it only takes a few seconds. Really. I know, that's not very helpful. I'm not really into OS X internals, but I do have a copy of Mac OS X Internals at home. Unless someones rings in with a quick fix, I'll see what it has to say about the shut down process.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:33:39
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Leo Quote:
In the 1985, when you only had a floppy drive, you just had to be sure the floppy led was off to power it off safely... Nowadays, it's not that easy anymore. Be it Amiga, or whatever operating system, programs constantly write stuff to disk. Powering it down by hand isn't safe.

Really? I have no problem on *my* Amiga

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