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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:34:20
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@KimmoK

Quote:
I noticed that also some disk caches are flushed to disk only in shutdown and that makes sleep mode very dangerous.
(recently I had saved about 20 documents in windows, but they did not appear to HDD before I did shutdown, If I did sleep and booted to linux, files did not show up)


You suspended Windows, booted into a different operating system on the same hardware, and expected everything to work correctly? As far as the "system" is concerned, you're still running Windows, whether you really are or not.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:35:24
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Leo/@ChrisH

I wonder. The hard disk LED on my sam440ep-flex flickers constantly, so I never know what it's actually doing. EDIT: I suspect something in OS4 is unnecessarily (or necessarily?) polling the disk.

Last edited by Trev on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:37 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:37:36
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Trev Quote:
Not every process uses the registry directly.

I don't think that someone who doesn't even know what the registry IS needs to know such details!

BTW, NTFS does not ensure consistency of data - but rather only for the meta data (but I guess you knew that).

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:41:12
#44 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@persia
AmigaOS does not have a central registry, or even really a central location for storing stuff. The closest you will come is all the files within EnvArc:, but no-where near all system state is stored there.

IMHO the Amiga is all the better for not having all it's eggs in one (very big, quite fragile & hard-to-fix) basket. (If you get a bad-block on your HD, the chances are it will be Window's registry (due to it's size), thus nuking it.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:43 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:43 AM.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 2:34:50
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@Kimmok

SO long the instant off via the power button remains Amiga style, I dont care what they do. It must however not have a windows Shut Down sequence, otherwise they may as well send the OS to the Scrapyard IMHO.

Cheers

P.S. Your request sounds reasonable though for those who never want to turn off their amiga, but wish to save some power consumption. MAybe have a sleep mode.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 2:53:55
#46 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ChrisH

Quote:
BTW, NTFS does not ensure consistency of data - but rather only for the meta data (but I guess you knew that).


Unless told otherwise, NTFS guarantees file system consistency. All changes to the file system are indeed logged. Whether or not data is guaranteed to be consistent depends on how you've told Windows to write the data (buffered or unbuffered).

The registry APIs have their own lazy write mechanism, and all writes to the registry are logged (and back in the day, mirrored) to maintain consistency. It's still up to the application to manage its own values, though, as Windows will only guarantee that the registry files are consistent. A lot of folks implement their own transaction schemes, which is presumably why Microsoft created a standard API for transaction-based registry access.

If something does go terribly, horribly wrong with the registry files, the most likely cause is a bad disk sector, as you noted.

All that said, this is just my understanding of how things work. I could be wrong. There's plenty of information in MSDN, TechNet, the Premier knowledge base, et al. If you work with an organization that's part of Microsoft's Enterprise Source Licensing Program (or its academic equivalent), you may even have access to Windows source code, which is obviously the best place to look.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 5:00:23
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@Trev

I was told by a windows user that NTFS is shet versus the JXFS or SFS type systems.

Is this true? Is it slower and not as advanced for data?

If so, then why is the x86 world not using SFS or the like as well, if this isbetter for data?

Sorry, just some curious questions, that were sparked from this windows user mate of mine. He seems to want to get a sam also, haha, thats amusing, hes only like 17 years old. thats like 11 years younger than me.

Anyway. cheers

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 7:13:36
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Gebrochen

Honestly, I don't know, but saying something is ####e isn't much of an argument one way or the other. They all share a number of modern features, but they're designed different applications. JXFS and SFS are to FFS what HPFS and FAT32 were to FAT, although JXFS and SFS have features that HPFS and FAT32 do not. I'm sure someone has posted a comparison of some sort in the past. NTFS does support many features that SFS and JXFS do not, most of which the average 17 year old would never use. (I'm not knocking the 17 year old. Lots of kids out there are way smarter than I am.)

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 8:02:23
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

IMHO the Amiga is all the better for not having all it's eggs in one

Is it any better to have prefs everywhere ? Envarc/env, progdir:, s:,... ?

I'm not sure... Amiga is all about simplicity, but this doesn't mean this is better. Computing have evolved since 20 years. AmigaOS mostly haven't... There are surely a lot of good things that don't need to be modified. But a lot of others should be. This shut down procedure is one of them according to me.

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Daedalus 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 8:44:47
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
I really resent Mac OSX giving me 2 minutes to change my mind after deciding to 'Shut Down'! Is there a way to change this?


No, it can't be changed as far as I am aware. But it doesn't mean you have to wait for the two minutes... I happen to like the Mac shutdown compared to Windows. On my Mac, I press the power button and press enter straight away. It starts shutting down immediately. On my XP machine, I click start, click shutdown, wait a few seconds for the disk churning to happen and the dialogue box to eventually show up, then click Shut Down. It's only an extra click, but takes ten times longer! And doing it with the keyboard involves even more keypresses...

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:11:22
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Trev Quote:
Microsoft created a standard API for transaction-based registry access.

I had noted that MS had created a really bad Transactional file API, but I didn't think it was registry-specific? Or is there another one?

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:17:56
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Leo Quote:
Is it any better to have prefs everywhere ? Envarc/env, progdir:, s:,... ?

Well, put it like this, I prefer having it stored in lots of little files, rather than one great humungous file that I cannot easily backup/modify/restore individual bits of.

Whether the Amiga's particularly way (which does not use one special directory) is better or worse is no-doubt debatable...

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BigD 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:21:27
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5770
From: UK

@Daedalus

Here's the solution for dialogue box free Mac OSX shutdown!

Quote:
Holding option and clicking "shut down" will bypass the dialog box.

Alternatively, you can press Control + Option + Command + Power/Eject Key


Much better

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asymetrix 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:27:27
#54 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

Could the RAD: disk be used ? or similar ?

Use something like RAD: to boot, but also have application state / memory accessed from th
ere.

I dont know how slow using RAD: as memory (binary image) would be though.

Interesting feature, worth a look into how effecient it could be.


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Daemon 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:31:58
#55 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2008
Posts: 51
From: Stockholm, Sweden

sw shutdown, would be great to have incase you want to shutdown after a download completes or at an specific time.

rather frustrating to wait manually for things to complete to then manually turn off a computer....

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BillE 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:47:44
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1182
From: Northern Scotland

@Leo

Quote:
What if your email program is receving an email while you power your computer off ?What if your webbrowser is writing something down to disk while you power it off ?



Surely no one would be so stupid to power off their computer while doing any of those things ! It is the ultimate in nanny computing if you have to allow for such idiocy

Quote:
Powering it down by hand isn't safe.


Of course it is and I like the way I can kill my Amiga by flicking the switch and not have to go through the painful way my Mac does it.

What about power cuts, you have no choice then - and they *do* happen.

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bernd_afa 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 12:38:45
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@ChrisH
>AmigaOS does not have a central registry, or even really a central location for >storing stuff. The closest you will come is all the files within EnvArc:, but no-where >near all system state is stored there.

I think the env System of AOS (files in envarc) can be seem simular to windows registry.

But AOS is lots more transparent and when you use better env handlers as happy env its lots faster and need not so much ram as windows registry.



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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 13:07:52
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Trev

>You suspended Windows, booted into a different operating system on the same hardware, and expected everything to work correctly? As far as the "system" is concerned, you're still running Windows, whether you really are or not.

Only microsoft seem to think so.

Do we let them to define how a computer "system" should work?

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 13:22:23
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Trev

>Better yet, OS4 should be able to guess what tasks I want to complete--e.g. writing a device driver, editing a video, writing a letter to Grandma--and then complete them at power on. That would save me so much time!

Right. Except that my idea is doable and useable.

>In all seriousness, you can't protect against accidental power loss without some form of nonvolatile memory or redundant power supply. This is why write caching disk controllers have batteries.

But it would be a lot better (when files are in HDD) than only hibernation & data only in RAM.

>Hibernating by saving and restoring the system state is a perfectly reasonable approach.

That is the sleep mode, is it not?
Hibernation is the one when RAM is powered and data remains there.

> If writing to mechanical disks is too slow, switch to solid state disks.
Still it's slower and/or more expensive.
Why you think that the Microsoft "invented" way is the only good way?

As a SW professional, I know that restart is the most reliable way (=CLEAN restart).
For example Linux (+apps) can remember what it had running previously, when being shut down.
So one can continue work another day without the overnight use of sleep mode.
It just is slow to boot Linux, AOS could do it better.

added:

>As noted by myself and others, it's still possible to lose data if you have write caching enabled. Unless you have an uninterruptible power supply, I suggest leaving write caching disabled. This is usually managed by your HBA driver.

With windows one has also the chance to stop using hibernate and sleep, but always shutdown.

(with Linux & "my" feature, one can return to straight to work, even after shutdown, perhaps faster)

Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 01:37 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 01:31 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 14:07:13
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@KimmoK
If you want Windows to flush everything to disk, then you should use the SysInternal's Sync command:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897438.aspx

Can be quite handy

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