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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:06:11
#561 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@linnar

you 2... i really cannot understand what you find good in ainc ..
can you name one or two thing ?
i can't figure *anything* good about them beside licencing hyperion, and i said earlier we just got lucky on that one. it could have been morphos (in that case we would still have been somehow "lucky") but it could have been another false company scam that would have never delivered.
we know too much ainc taste for such companies or way of conducting business: no result at all.

Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:15 PM.

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:10:22
#562 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
What if you knew how wrong you are ..

wrong about what? they plan to sell PCs ....
excuse me but how is that amiga in any way?
not by OS, not by hardware ...
at least an amigaos "feel-alike" OS is required at the very minimum,
which they don't even do. (they could at least try to create a lame theme for windows .. which would be even more laughable but at least they would have something else beside just the sticker in relation to Amiga.)
!c=usa .. what a joke..
it's the same as go out buy a PC and put an Amiga sticker on the case while running windows.(yuk)

unless they reveal something different from now on, so far it is completely unrelated.
beside the sticker..

Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:12 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:10 PM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:16:54
#563 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

Quote:

freeaks wrote:
@Leo

,if i had to choose, i'll choose hyperion over ainc,
my eyes closed without having to think more than a micro sec.

anyway to answer your question:
i don't believe hyperion did steal os4.
but even if this was true, it would still be a good thing , because ainc had no plan for it.
ainc did pretty much nothing. they almost produced nothing.
and what they did was really uninterresting (really boring cell phone games or such)
the rest was like: lie, lie , lie, more lies, some obvious lies too, and some more.

hyperion on the other hand produced os4, delivered, updated, supported it too.

in this case, i'd go even as far as say it was "justice".
ainc would have done nothing with it. that would have been a damn waste.
after what 8 years now ? i'm still waiting *anything* produced by ainc that look interesting or good for this community.

edit: and indeed it was declared "justice" by law too. ainc lost the case.
and it feel good to see the good guys win.
unless you're against os4 in itself leo ?
i know you're french, most frenchs amiga user seem pretty much morphos fans,
as seen on site amigaimpact.org ..
at least here's a french on os4 side here ;) but i know there's more too.

All broken promises depends on one very simple factor: No money!
Investors over the years has given the impression that the AI would get money but they never got it. AI had to try to find projects they could earn their own money. It was AA and AA2 later. It was not as good as it seems.
Each time they were on the move again, a setback.

Well, it may suffice. I do not want to start a Discussion with no end.

Now it seems that the AI had a partner with the muscles and really want to bring the Commodore and Amiga on the map!

I'm guessing it will be more, much more ...

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:19:05
#564 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

Quote:

freeaks wrote:
@linnar

you 2... i really cannot understand what you find good in ainc ..
can you name one or two thing ?

AmigaOS 4.x

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:24:00
#565 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@linnar

ainc had no plan for amigaos at the beginning iirc.
seeing all this community seemed to care about was amigaos,
they decided to "try to please the community" so they can sell us Amiga branded (but unrelated) gizmo.
(or rather gain time while acting like they're gonna please us but won't deliver in the end.)
which proves how clueless they are about amigaos.
and we got lucky contract fallen on hyperion .
since they genuinely cared about amigaos and had real plans for it.


Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 03:03 PM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:31:28
#566 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

Quote:

freeaks wrote:
@linnar

Quote:
What if you knew how wrong you are ..

wrong about what? they plan to sell PCs ....
excuse me but how is that amiga in any way?
not by OS, not by hardware ...
at least an amigaos "feel-alike" OS is required at the very minimum,
which they don't even do. (they could at least try to create a lame theme for windows .. which would be even more laughable but at least they would have something else beside just the sticker in relation to Amiga.)
!c=usa .. what a joke..
it's the same as go out buy a PC and put an Amiga sticker on the case while running windows.(yuk)

unless they reveal something different from now on, so far it is completely unrelated.
beside the sticker..


OK, let us see here! You KNOW which is higher than all other (non-Commodore) what's going on?!
How can you know? Of course you can not! You are just pi##ed off that a company, as you know has the financial muscle, not stick to the processor without a future: PowerPC.
The future is in x86 because it is cheap and because the major processor companies are constantly developing x86 to new levels.
No one PPC company in the world have the huge resources that Intel, etc. have.

PPC is theoretically the best of the two, I admit it. But it does not help when the developers, the market and producers, the vast x86 route.

I also believe that Hyperion started to realize it. But they've gone to a contract that holds them in the PPC, which becomes less and less. Hyperion has unfortunately painted himself into a corner. Just Bill McEwen can help them thence.

I wonder what his demands are for the help .....

Last edited by linnar on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:33 PM.

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:34:24
#567 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
AmigaOS 4.x

you said you thought ainc brought us os4 ?
no way.

this community showed all they cared about was amigaos so ainc felt they had to do something about it.
so we can "like" them, and then they can sell us unrelated, Amiga-branded gizmos.
they felt they had to do something but had no real plan.
i doubt very much a lot of serious thought went into it from them.
they just once again used the name and right they acquired to gain money from hyperion.
one stone two bird:
they licence hyperion, get money from the deal, and a promise of amigaos update for the community.
so we can "like" them and be thankful and then buy their gizmos.
but in fact i'd bet on that, they didn't really cared if hyperion would deliver or not.
they didn't truely wanted to see amigaos back in the track.
they were just trying to buy some time , get community favor, get a little money from the deal with hyperion.
no real desire to see amigaos update a reality.

iirc, it was even said this would be one of the last updates .. a kind of "the last one guys .. enjoy"

all of this is my opinion but i really think that more or less how it went.
and as i said we got lucky hyperion had real hopes, plans, for amigaos.
ainc alway only cared about making money from the brand. no matter if they sell you a vaccum cleaner or a cell phone or a windows machine... like they're doing with licencing !c=usa it seems btw.


Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 03:01 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:54 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:35 PM.

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 14:46:51
#568 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@linnar

2 bad replies from you in a row,
i mean really clueless in my opinion.
i'll just skip your comments from now on.
sorry. i won't loose more time on trying to explain my opinion to you.
not that i claim to know anything for sure or had any kind of insider info but rather,
my view as an amiga user at the time.

i cannot have faith in a company that did the kent arena stuff, the shell-company-games, ack, and all they did.
they proven to me (as an amiga user) that in 8years they did nothing. just talk, lies, broken promises all the way etc etc etc.
if i have to trust someone it's the one who deliver: companies like hyperion or acube for ex. (eventualy a-eon too .. since the x1000 do exist already. while a bit to soon to compare to acube or hyperion yet, but will see soon about a-eon. it seem to me they do care. so i tend to trust them already. but that's another story ...)
ainc with all their talk, official announcement with ack and other ... they couldn't even release a single picture !

sorry but no trust.
oh, and financial muscle? come on, they hardly managed Tshirts !! (and it took few years to them iirc.)
no money for the community, they had only money for suing, hoping to gain substantial money from real amiga companies ..
they simply ain't no worthy of the name they bought.

Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 03:09 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 01-Nov-2010 at 02:50 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 15:24:13
#569 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

ifconfig amiga.com up

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 17:44:16
#570 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

but only "by circumstances".
meaning the original amigaos would have been dumped or put in storage in favor of
morphos taking over.
but it would still have been (and is) a completly new project.
not based on original sources.

Since most components have been rewritten from scratch it is a completely new project too. ExecSG is not based on Exec sources...

Quote:

anyway, it's not what happenned.. no need to focus on this anymore. it was "at the time".
and who would have given to morphos the status of amigaos successor ?
amiga inc right?

You miss the point: I don't care about who's the "named" successor...

Quote:

since os4 is based on the original source so no doubt here.

Btw, I don't see how the fact its based on the sources or not affects the user (and even the developper). For having tried both OS4 and MorphOS on the same machine, it's certainly the same. For having coded on both, it's certainly the same (well, difference is that the API has changed in OS4, adding some kind of interface)

Quote:

maybe morphos could have gained access to original source if they could have made the deal with ainc. what would mos team have done with it? this question will never? be answered now.

It appears to me they did quite well without having the sources since MorphOS is more compatible than OS4.. But again, I don't see the point.

Quote:

but well i'm rather happy about the direction os4 is taking.
it's looking forward (multicore for ex)
while morphos seems to prefer concentrate on keeping compatibility: stay true to os3.x api (despite it's outdated in many area, most notably memory administration but not only ..)

I don't know which one is old, but can you name me one area where OS4 is more advanced than MorphOS ? (a true one, not something that's on the paper)
Cause I really can't see any...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 17:55:02
#571 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@Leo



You don't know what your taking about.



Twenty-Five years of Development

Quote:

As a celebration of the 25th anniversary of the Amiga computer, Hyperion Entertainment has made a video using the Gource CVS visualization software showing a time-compressed version of 25 years of Amiga development, from the early days of AmigaOS 1.0 to the present. Personal commentary added by one of the current core full-time AmigaOS developers, Hans-Joerg Frieden (a.k.a. "Rogue").


http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/reply.php?forum=2&start=560&post_id=587340&topic_id=30771&viewmode=flat&order=0

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Nov-2010 at 05:59 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 18:12:50
#572 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@Leo

Quote:
It appears to me they did quite well without having the sources


MorphOS is not written from ground up, it based on cyber graphics, AHI, MUI, there are lots of stuff MorphOS got for free.

Quote:
I don't know which one is old, but can you name me one area where OS4 is more advanced than MorphOS ? (a true one, not something that's on the paper)

Cause I really can't see any...


You disregard people personal taste.

AmigaOS4.1 looks better, also AmigaOS4.1 has friendly users (We don't call you names etc.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Nov-2010 at 06:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Nov-2010 at 06:13 PM.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 20:52:39
#573 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

You disregard people personal taste.

AmigaOS4.1 looks better, also AmigaOS4.1 has friendly users (We don't call you names etc.)

Funny the only thing you can come with is the look when asked what's better and what makes OS4 more "Amiga" than MorphOS... look beeing the only thing that can be shared across different OS. Event Linux can be made look like OS3.x or OS4.1...

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 20:54:18
#574 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

Twenty-Five years of Development

As a user (and developer), this video doesn't has any impact on the use I have... An API is an API...

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DiscreetFX 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 21:16:38
#575 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2053
From: Chicago, IL

It's back up because winter is almost here and with it comes Snowman Maker II Ultimate Love AI Edition. We bet everyone is waiting with baited breath for that one!

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 21:57:21
#576 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

This begins to look like "newer ending story" therefore I will say briefly what I think.

Start of OS4 time:
Amiga Inc started the project OS4. The agreement was signed with Hyperion on OS4 would be and more. A timetable was set up.

The long silence:
Since we know that it was an IT bubble. AI investors was almost bankrupt. Bill McEwen became ill. He ran into a family tragedy. Time passed and we thought AI was gone. Meanwhile, Jobs was on the TAO-AA.

Return:
Slowly, slowly came back AI. AA software developed and they had sold a few. TAO was sold and was run down. AI had to start from scratch and develop its own engine to AA that was called AA2.

Trial Time:
Can not bother to write about it. Everyone knows everything about that time.

Investor death time:
AI investors die. The money is drying up.
AI can not stand complete the trial for lack of money.
An agreement signed between Hyperion and Hyperion AI that gives some rights to the name, AmigaOS, etc..

After the time:
Again silence.



How would Amiga Inc could do something for OS4 when they were down for the count most of the time after the contract with Hyperion?
During the trial, I do not think they had such a great desire to do something for OS4.

I skipped a lot of the event for I can not write it down again.


The present time:
A newcomer turns up in the economic strength and self-determination to lift the old computers with the old feeling to today's technical level.
They are smart enough to know that this is not possible with the PPC. Contact is established with Amiga Inc. Amiga, Inc. are in the game again.
With a PPC, which becomes less and less relevant for computers reduces profits in selling expensive PPC computers without software. The time is approaching when it becomes necessary for Hyperion to sit at a table with Amiga Inc again. Together, the three could make a breakthrough for the Amiga by porting OS4 to x86 and deliver Amiga x86 with OS4.x or maybe the name is OS5.0.

That time I long to where Amiga Inc owns the rights in which Hyperion can develop operativsystems and where the Commodore has the financial strength and business experience.
All three want really the same thing = Amiga and make money at it!

Last edited by linnar on 01-Nov-2010 at 10:08 PM.
Last edited by linnar on 01-Nov-2010 at 09:57 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 1-Nov-2010 23:09:37
#577 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@Leo

The API used in OS4 is nice, you do not notice it at all if you use -D__USE_INLINE__

the biggest difference is that OLD jump table actually used 680x0 JMP instruction, while new interface table is just a simple function table in reality, its as simple as you can write it in C.

2en thing that's different is that interfaces are named, while jmp tables are located always at fix location for the library base.

Are there any disadvantages?

Answer: None.

What's the advantages?

Answer:

* You can have more the one table,
* You use it for revisions,
* You can also group functions under different interfaces.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Nov-2010 at 11:12 PM.

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Bugala 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 2:53:38
#578 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Posts: 639
From: Finland

Sicne its nice to be on minority, i jump in to defend Ainc too.

except for this quote, i wont quote directly, just comment:

@Kronos
AInc: "look we found some suckers who will write OS4 for just 25000$"


Actually, if you would read your Amiga Futures, and remember them better, you could quote Trevor Dickinson (dont remember the number, and wont go looking for it right now) saying about "...Ainc commissioned Hyperion to do AOS4 for 25000$ which in the end appeared to be very realistic pricing..." basis on that comment forgotten, but you can be sure that Trevor Dickinsons retrospective is very thourough and hes sayings are quite careful and well based and thought.


Freaks demanded to show something good about Ainc.

Okay, heres some.


Gateway was about to trash Amiga allegedly due to their Microsoft connection (good relations wtih M$ were worth more than Possibility to domain world of Amigas to Gateway, and M$ didnt want anymore Systems to compete with, Macs were already quite enough for them to compete with).

So Amiga was in its way to disappearance.

Ainc, came to save it and we still have it today (of course it is possible someone else better one had took it then, but that we dont know)



So then comes the OS3.5 and 3.9, Ainc contracted Haage&Partner to make them, and they both came, and everyone seemed quite happy for Ainc.


Next comes the Amiga One part then.

So Ainc. made the official Amiga One system description. First they asked MorphOS to be the official rouse, unfortunately they (understandably) refused Aincs (understandable) demand of having full control over OS development.

Although I am now basically hoping MorphOS to completely disappear, since i dont think its good thing there are two competing OSes in this small market, I do have to say that now afterwards I think it had been much better if AOS4 had never existed and MorphOS had became the official OS, since Bill seemed to have determination to get machines done and we would have had our new PPC Amigas, OSes etc. already years before than we now did.

So therefore one again Ainc. went on to subcontracting making the AOS4, now Hyperions estimation was that it would take Couple of months to make it.


And this is the crucial part in Aincs ongoing failure with Amiga community I believe.

And this is not Hyperions fault either. I believe the finger to point should be Haage&Partner.

For what happened after this is that everything fell apart. So far Ainc had maybe not done anything enormous, but they had done steady progress forward little step at a time and were just about to get us new PPC based machine.


What happened next is that Haage&Partner wouldnt give the source codes of OS3.5 and OS3.9 to Ainc.

Hyperions estimate of "Couple of months" was naturally based upon supposing they are going to get the source codes of OS.35 and 3.9 and that they are basically going to be doing just the OS3.9 to PPC conversion.


About the next thing that happened, I have never seen the story told, and it would be nice to know why did next things happen.

For Ainc had contracted Hyperion to just make OS3.9 to PPC basically. Now did Hyperion give new time estimation to Ainc, and if they did, what timeframe did they do.

Did Ainc. happily accept that timeframe, or were they forced to accept because they had already signed a contract and basically failed to deliver their part on giving the srouce codes? Or had Ainc been free to pursuit alternative way, perhaps the MorphOS again? and what about that third opeerating system Quinox or something like (name which i cant remember) why didnt they start using that?.

And also, why didnt Hyperion still just make the OS3.1 to PPC converstion basically, but they instead started making the current AOS4.0 which was much much further beyond the idea of just making AOS running with PPC. Was this approved by Ainc. or not, and was the timeframe given and accepted by AInc at all?

These would be interesting things to know, since from those depends a lot about if Hyperion is good guy in that part or not (I hope they are).


Anyway. Because of Haage&Partner refusing to give the source code, AOS4.0 delays, this results in Eye-Tech producing Amiga Ones before AOS4.0 is released, and naturally since there are no AOS4.0 their boards most liklely sold much less than they otherwhise had, and Eyetech throwed their gloves to corner from Amiga Market, it came just too hard for them to make profitable business in Amiga Market anymore.

Had Haage&Partnet given the source code, would have we then really had AOS4.0 (the OS3.9 conversion version) only half year later and would Eyetech hald sold enough machines to even still be around in Amiga Market and would we be having much more users and software and games to use and so on? That we cant know, but except for eyetech, i believe all the rest are very likely.


So now Ainc. is stuck in its next step for next was it 4-5 years? At same time Economic IT stock crash comes and money gets dried up. Not very good situation for Ainc.

Even the Aos4.0 finally comes out, theres not much left for Ainc. to do since theres not much players around anymore.

Originally Ainc. had got us both machine and AOS done, but since AOS delayed so hefty, it pretty much killed every momentum they had going.


But i still dont get it how didnt they get those T-shiurts done. What could have been so hard in getting them done? I think thats the biggest mistake they ever did, that was like spitting in their users face.


Now on top of these things, dont forget that they almost got AmigaDE on one Cellphone or something that had been produced in millions. This would have made world of difference had it really happened.


Then another take from history of Ainc.

Ainc. contracts third party to make them AOS3.5 and 3.9, then suddenlyt third party decides its theirs to keep.

Then Ainc. Contracts third party to make AOS4.0, they decide its theirs to keep too.

And on top of that, even Ainc. CEO turns against them and starts claiming for 1 Million USD.

And naturally when they are being beaten from right and left and punched to the ground, Amiga Community comes around and starts kicking them on ground too blaming them from everything and giving credit from everything theyve got done to someone else.


And now that they have been pushed to the corner, making sure theres no way they can do any real business, when they do the only sensible thing left to do (license Amiga name to C=USA) they are being blamed from that too.

Its like Ainc is the unwanted child to whom its being told "We never wanted you to exist, and you better stop breathing. Oh, and by the way, two minutes ago that you breath air inside, you did it WRONG!"

what a nice life they having there inside Ainc.

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Bugala 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 2:59:29
#579 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Posts: 639
From: Finland

Oh, and almost forgot.

It is so nice that all are blaming C=USA from making Amiga branded PCs.

If you look at their first messages, it was clear they were wanting to have some sort of AROS solution on board too to add some more value to their product and to help Amiga community (and i think that was great plan actually), but what happened?

Once again people so thankful to all the things previous Amiga Businesses (ainc) have done, decided to thank C=USA in advance already, so much that C=USA decided they would have much more peaceful life by making it PC only machine.

And wise decision they did.

Aftel all, isnt the idea in making business to try get yourself better life, not more stressful with having complaining peopel around you sending you angry emails all the time. Besides, its annoying to go through hate meail all the time when you are trying to find the real emails that you need to read.

Wise Decision both from AInc. to license Amiga brand for C=USA, and from C=USA to make them PC only.

Naturally i dont like the decision, but i completely understand why they did so, and have to say that in my books they are both wise businessmen from doing that way.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 7:42:47
#580 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

Ainc commissioned Hyperion to do AOS4 for 25000$ which in the end appeared to be very realistic pricing..." basis on that comment forgotten, but you can be sure that Trevor Dickinsons retrospective is very thourough and hes sayings are quite careful and well based and thought.

Wait, let's do some calculation...

Let's imagine AOS4 must be finished within a year, and only one full-time developer is working on it (that's pretty optimistic since it took 4-5 years to two full-time plus a handful of contributors to come to something usable).

Let's imagine the developer's wage is 45 000 euros (~ $ 58455) per year, which is the barely minimum for C/C++ development. That's already more than twice the amount asked for A.Inc. And that includes the salary of only *one* developer.

Is it well based and thought ? No.

Amiga Inc. knew it would cost a lot more.
Hyperion also knew it would cost more and couldn't be done in such little time.

Is Amiga Inc. evil ? Certainly.
Is Hyperion an angel ? Certainly not.
Is MorphOS team an angel ? Certainly not, but at least they didn't sign an unacceptable contract, hoping the other parties would declare bankruptcy...

As to coming back to the CBM USA/Amiga Inc. subject, I of course understand the x86 choice. What I don't is how you can announce a $30 million advertising budget for a product you don't even have on paper. And how you can't pay for a clean website when you have that much budget... This reminds me of the Kent Arena story which everyone knows the ending...

Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 07:53 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 07:49 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 07:47 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 07:46 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 07:43 AM.

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