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retro 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 7:59:22
#581 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Dec-2003
Posts: 1046
From: Unknown

iff amiga inc.make an snowman maker 2 i will buy one just to say i did it after

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 8:34:44
#582 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@Leo, in reply to post 570

Quote:

but well i'm rather happy about the direction os4 is taking. it's looking forward (multicore for ex) while morphos seems to prefer concentrate on keeping compatibility: stay true to os3.x api (despite it's outdated in many area, most notably memory administration but not only ..)

I don't know which one is old, but can you name me one area where OS4 is more advanced than MorphOS ? (a true one, not something that's on the paper) Cause I really can't see any...


easy:
memory administration,
virtual memory too
you asked for 1. here it is. and it's the most important point imho.
amigaos need an overhaul in that area and os4 started to walk toward that. morphos don't.
unless i'm mistaken? mos don't offer virtual memory right ? nor grimreaper ? nor substantial change in API to try to enforce memory protection..
os4 does, mos don't. (if i'm mistaken please someone correct me)
this alone would make me choose os4 over mos.

about the rest of your comments,
you say you don't care who is named successor, ok, but what seems important to me is to have access to original sources. (at least as a reference). complete reimplementation isn't a bad thing like aros try to do too but,
it's not the same code base, not even based on original code (not even as a reference), it's just something different. another product. and not a continuation.
finally, which one is better, full reimplementation from scratch or continuation of the original project is another discussion.

Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:41 AM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:41 AM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:41 AM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:39 AM.

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 8:56:48
#583 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

to get back on the topic,
a message to all ainc supporter:
i cannot understand you.
biten, once..
biten twice ..
biten N times..
and you still support them? well .. okay ..
but not me.
no trust for ainc until they prove some (continued) changes for the better.
at the point they are they'd need to do good , very good for some time until i'd change my mind about them.

and considering what they last did (recently): licence !c=cusa to sell windows machine labeled as amiga ain't gonna help ;)
i'd laugh if that wasn't so pathetic.. and bad for amigaos public image ..

Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 09:03 AM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 09:02 AM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 11:02:45
#584 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

Quote:

freeaks wrote:
to get back on the topic,
a message to all ainc supporter:
i cannot understand you.
biten, once..
biten twice ..
biten N times..
and you still support them? well .. okay ..
but not me.
no trust for ainc until they prove some (continued) changes for the better.
at the point they are they'd need to do good , very good for some time until i'd change my mind about them.

and considering what they last did (recently): licence !c=cusa to sell windows machine labeled as amiga ain't gonna help ;)
i'd laugh if that wasn't so pathetic.. and bad for amigaos public image ..

The issue is not so simple!
I think most people would like to see another owner from the beginning with their own money.
Bill McEwen tried, and in the beginning it was fine with interesting plans.
The money ran out around 2001 and it has not been any. Only small fragments.
The bad thing about Bill McEwen's promises that can not be held. Promises were produced in connection with that he could see some cash flow. It is fatal to so quickly make any promises.
In addition to this is the guy very nice and friendly as the people I talked to who met him. He is serious about its plans (promises) but it is killed (probably) all the time on the promises he had not been kept and all this happens also to his own promises.

You feel a bit for the guy simply.
Then he produced some as well (for example, OS4).
But most importantly, keep us there, is that his company is in a straight descending line Commodore Amiga to Amiga Inc.

Thus, it is nostalgic sympathies that allows it to bite.
Some people have sympathy for the guy who also is opposed by everyone everywhere.

I think!

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 11:50:11
#585 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

memory administration,

Care to elaborate ?

Quote:

virtual memory too

I guess you misunderstood "virtual memory" with "swap". Cause MorphOS has virtual memory too...
If you mean "swap" then MorphOS doesn't have support for it, but seeing how unstable it is on OS4, I don't see the point.

Quote:

unless i'm mistaken? mos don't offer virtual memory right ?

See above.

Quote:

nor grimreaper ?

When a task crashes you may close/suspend it in MorphOS much like you would do with grim reaper. You also have access to some debug log just like with grim reaper... But since you seem to be a user, how does it affect your usage ?

Quote:

nor substantial change in API to try to enforce memory protection..

Memory protection ? What memory protection... MorphOS protects some zones much like OS4. Full memory protection is not possible nor present in neither. This has been discussed a zillion times.

Explain me what does having access to the source code change for you as a user or developer ? MorphOS seems to be faster and more compatible with AmigaOS than OS4, and this is all I care... If having access to the source would mean better, faster, more compatible, I could care, but it seems it's not the case.

Last edited by Leo on 02-Nov-2010 at 11:54 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 12:04:59
#586 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9254
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
If you mean "swap" then MorphOS doesn't have support for it, but seeing how unstable it is on OS4, I don't see the point.


As I see, your knowledge of OS4 is even more limited than mine...

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 12:56:53
#587 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@Leo

i remember morphos core developper criticizing os4 devs for choosing to introduce some new change in the os API that would cause minimal incompatibility with not so OS friendly apps.
i remember them saying they are crazy of "breaking" api .. i do not see it as abreaking but imporving
either way right know i'm quite drunk hahaha :o) (korean alcool chamisul )
but aa wait i meant, mos place foucus on compatibility and os3.x api compliance as holy grail whereas os4 try to keep compatibility too but introducing new comcept (gradualy).
remember i was a mos user too few years ago. i know. and i'm not anymore but i still follow the news too, being an amiga enthusiast ..

so mos focus on old/classic os3.x api . os4 too but also look forward multicore, pciexpress, memory protyection related slight api changes bhjere and there

@linar
no matter what you said i told you i'll skip your posts, supporting ainc is sin (and i'm 200% atheist)
refer to theses posts::
Re: Amiga.com down? posts: 561, 562, 565, 567, 568
nothing else to say sorry.

Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:34 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:24 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:23 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:02 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:00 PM.

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Fransexy 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 13:02:55
#588 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

Amiga.com is up and running again and it seems that the Amiga inc giving commodore usa EXCLUSIVE WORLDWIDE LICENSING RIGHTS is true


So now amiga inc is for sale what you get if you buy it? OS belongs to Hyperion, the Name will be used by Commodore USA; what belongs to amiga inc to make use of them?

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 13:14:50
#589 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
Explain me what does having access to the source code change for you as a user or developer ? MorphOS seems to be faster and more compatible with AmigaOS than OS4, and this is all I care... If having access to the source would mean better, faster, more compatible, I could care, but it seems it's not the case.


exactly my point.
mos focus and put everything on compatibility . the problem with these softwares is that they don't get younger. so maybe right now yyou see this as a good argument for morphos yhes , but the problem is that mos don't evolve from os3.x api. right now it's 2010.
see you in a few years and see how you'll still defend this as a good argument for morphos.
in any case ppl maybe didn't notice but when you speak of nice software running on mos and os4, ppl speak in term of "owb, mplayer, blender, wookiechat and such.. all new or ported softs.
old software amiga gem are either OS friendly or left in the dust like movieshop.
how long , how far are you willing to go for software built in the 90s era ?
it's time to gradualy introduce improvements from os3.x api. imho.
i know i'm still drunk but whataha!? ;)

Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:21 PM.

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freeaks 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 13:17:52
#590 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Unknown

@Fransexy

saaad news :((
!c=usa is evil ..
but on the good side, their way of conducting business looks very strange.. shooting at community and all, maybe they won't be able to do much in the long run..eventually..

to me, they're just like ainc, profitteer of the brand name and fame.
i just hope they meet the same fate as ainc. only i wish it faster. way faaaaster ! :)
good thing is, it took them a lot less time than ainc to start being hated by this community. maybe the rest will follow as fast .. one can alway hope :)
windows pc labeled amiga ? no thanks.

Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:45 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:44 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:42 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:33 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:32 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:32 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:20 PM.
Last edited by freeaks on 02-Nov-2010 at 01:18 PM.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 15:08:52
#591 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

so mos focus on old/classic os3.x api . os4 too but also look forward multicore, pciexpress, memory protyection related slight api changes bhjere and there

If they had focused forward, while breaking the API, they would have isolated some components, and create a new API which is SMP safe, etc... Problem is it's not the case: they introduced a new one which doesn't remove any limitation the original OS had.

I don't see how they look forward... And I don't see any of the features you cite coming in an efficient way any time soon without breaking compatibility, not only with old 3.x software, but with software written for OS4 as well.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 20:26:32
#592 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@freeaks

Quote:

freeaks wrote:
@linar
no matter what you said i told you i'll skip your posts, supporting ainc is sin (and i'm 200% atheist)
refer to theses posts::
Re: Amiga.com down? posts: 561, 562, 565, 567, 568
nothing else to say sorry.

I read that you should skip my posts but you did not keep your promise. One promise and one broken promise is one hundred percent broken promises. It's more than Bill McEwen ....

I am also an atheist, but more than 200% !

Last edited by linnar on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:27 PM.
Last edited by linnar on 02-Nov-2010 at 08:27 PM.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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jas_mc 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 2-Nov-2010 20:52:28
#593 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-May-2010
Posts: 232
From: Unknown

I'd be interested to hear whether Commodore USA's license for the Amiga brand is somehow protected in all this. Will whoever buys the Amiga IP and brand have to honour it? What if someone comes along and says, "I'll offer [insert great price here] but not if I'm bound to the Commodore USA license?" Can Bill McEwan revoke the license if he wants, prior to the moment of sale?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 8-Nov-2010 14:10:39
#594 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
If they had focused forward, while breaking the API,


That's the thing. Is the API really broken? As long as the code performs what the guide says then it is perfectly fine. If it breaks then that is obvious the programmer hasn't written OS-friendly code and instead OS-hacking code in the AllocVec() case. The only case I have found where it doesn't do what the guide says is allocating audio from audio.device. OS4 returns zero alwasy as the AllocKey, the guide says it will be non-zero on success.

The problem here was OS4 didn't checks and didn't have MP. If you passed a null pointer as an argument that expected a string on OS4, it just ended up looking in location $0 and no harm done. On OS4 when it expects a valid pointer it won't check and will crash. IMHO I think this a stupid approach, the OS shouldn't be as trusting and should be more judgemental. Does it help if you se as crash instead of a warning? AmigaDOS gives warnings against invaliud pointers so why not the res tof the system?

Quote:
they would have isolated some components, and create a new API which is SMP safe, etc...


The interfaces are essentually a new API. So anything could have been done hete. But the 68k libraries did share the system with 68k apps.

Quote:
Problem is it's not the case: they introduced a new one which doesn't remove any limitation the original OS had.


And doing so might remove features the API had as well.

Quote:
don't see how they look forward... And I don't see any of the features you cite coming in an efficient way any time soon without breaking compatibility, not only with old 3.x software, but with software written for OS4 as well.


To me this seems silly. If you have a fresh start you make use of it. But SMP should be possible without drastic changes. The only reason I can see for breaking compatibility with current OS4 apps now or sticking them in a sandbox is implementing OS4 as a 64-bit OS.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 8-Nov-2010 14:35:58
#595 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

But SMP should be possible without drastic changes.

And to the many developers that tried and failed it seems it's not that easy...

But maybe Hyperion is better... And if it's the case I'll be happy to admit I was wrong (and so the numerous people who said it couldn't be done). Meanwhile, it's just fantasy...

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 13:17:25
#596 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
And to the many developers that tried and failed it seems it's not that easy...


On what systems?

Quote:
But maybe Hyperion is better... And if it's the case I'll be happy to admit I was wrong (and so the numerous people who said it couldn't be done). Meanwhile, it's just fantasy..


It's been in the works for years. The A1 had a dual card which I'm sure they had access to. And it's been a few years since I emailed Thomas about the subject and he explained it to me.

You can read my more thoughts on the subject from MP!6

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T-J 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 13:30:50
#597 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Hypex

You know, it occurs to me that the solution to the whole issue of breaking compatibility is staring us in the face, now that we know a little bit more about the capabilities of the X1000's CPU.

Ben Hermans has mentioned that its cores are partitionable, hence can run two operating systems at the same time. The immediate thought is running AmigaOS4 and the favoured flavour of Linux at the same time. But could it not also run the existing AmigaOS4 alongside a new, 64-bit, memory protected, SMP-enabled version with 'modern' APIs?

This new 'OS6' would have next-to no software to begin with, but the ability to run OS4 alongside it would fill the gap while software was ported to the new environment.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 13:43:42
#598 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1327
From: CRO

@T-J

Quote:
But could it not also run the existing AmigaOS4 alongside a new, 64-bit, memory protected, SMP-enabled version with 'modern' APIs? This new 'OS6' would have next-to no software to begin with, but the ability to run OS4 alongside it would fill the gap while software was ported to the new environment.



A better proposition would be something alike Anubis OS, but with OS4 instead of AROS.

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T-J 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 13:55:42
#599 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

I'm talking about solving the compatibility problem in AmigaOS. Running our existing OS concurrently with an AmigaOS update (which I'm calling 'OS 6') that breaks backward compatibility means that we'll get the best of both worlds without having to bin the AmigaOS and without needing to use Linux.

I would like to see something very much like the AmiCygnix screen. We'd click on a docky to go into 'OS4 Mode', and get a new screen with an OS4 Workbench to run older software on.


And of course, when we need Linux there will be the option to boot into whichever distro they're porting. Debian, probably.

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persia 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 14:22:59
#600 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Anubis was a good idea, replacing the aOS kernel with a linux one makes sense. The idea that you could build a modern Windowing system that would replace X was a good one. Ubuntu, which accounts for somewhat more than half of the Linux installs out there is abandoning X in favour of Wayland.

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