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      /  Amiga.com down?
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The_Editor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 9-Nov-2010 14:36:31
#601 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7629
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

@persia

Didn't Olegil and myself mention this like....Eleventy million years ago ?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 14-Nov-2010 7:40:41
#602 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@T-J

Quote:
Ben Hermans has mentioned that its cores are partitionable, hence can run two operating systems at the same time.


Sounds funny talking about a CPU as if it was a harddisk.

Quote:
The immediate thought is running AmigaOS4 and the favoured flavour of Linux at the same time. But could it not also run the existing AmigaOS4 alongside a new, 64-bit, memory protected, SMP-enabled version with 'modern' APIs?


Actually, I think you have a crocker idea there.

This would be a good solution, perhaps the best. Now all we need is a quad core X1000, or even a twin dual-core CPU with 2x2 cores, so we can run OS4-32, OS4-64, Linux-64 and then OSX-64!

Quote:
This new 'OS6' would have next-to no software to begin with, but the ability to run OS4 alongside it would fill the gap while software was ported to the new environment.


Hmmm, interesting, but what about an AmigaOS5? Since AFAIK Hyperion can do that and there is no [non-Amiga] OS5 in place yet.

The "6" in "OS6" sounds a bit too much like sometihng else. Not time yet.

Last edited by Hypex on 14-Nov-2010 at 07:42 AM.

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Mops 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 14-Nov-2010 11:51:07
#603 ]
New Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2010
Posts: 8
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Hmmm, interesting, but what about an AmigaOS5? Since AFAIK Hyperion can do that and there is no [non-Amiga] OS5 in place yet.


I suppose the reason for avoiding OS5 would be to avoid any association with this. Much better to skip straight to OS6 and avoid any unwanted negative press.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 6:19:57
#604 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

Amiga.com is back up.

Amiga Inc. is still around. I am hoping the relationship with Amiga Inc., CommodoreUSA business, AROS (team) can proceed with a good synergy.

I would hope to see a provisional AROS edition of the AA SDK (or at the very least, cross-development to) so this can be promoted with decency.

Tying the AROS, Amiga trademark and C= trademark together with a decent and inexpensive (relatively) computer.

I know many of you have decent computers and some of you are on aging units and may like to upgrade to something a little better. This can be a nice way to bring the brand together.

Anyway, just time to move past the past debacle and into the future with REAL development for everyone's benefit NOT reiteration of the past.

To folks at Amiga, Inc., tape Billy's mouth shut.
Just focus on real development and make things happen. Don't talk pre-maturely about anything.

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number6 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 7:32:44
#605 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@Wildstar128

Quote:
Amiga Inc. is still around. I am hoping the relationship with Amiga Inc., CommodoreUSA business, AROS (team) can proceed with a good synergy.


Based on what C=USA has said about Amiga Inc. and the subsequent announcement of the sale of the worldwide rights to the AMIGA trademarks and associated intellectual property, nothing would be more surprising.
(not to mention what AROS said about C=USA and vice versa)

C=USA quote:

Quote:
Bill McEwen has pretty much left the AMIGA brand to us to do with as we please.


Not to mention C=USA saying not once but twice that the only reason they went to Amiga Inc. was because talks with Hyperion failed to produce the results they wished.

Quote:
We wouldn't have gone for the Amiga trademark if we could have come to an arrangement.


It seems that worrying about what Bill might say about any relationship is moot, as enough of the other parties have already blurted out their feelings.

#6

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 9:08:48
#606 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@number6

Right.... but positive things could possibly happen. CommodoreUSA has a license to use the Amiga "trademark" for the particular application without issue but Amiga Inc. owns the trademarks. It is a licensure deal.

It could be a good thing. Amiga can now focus on its stuff and possibly tie in with AROS in the sense of supporting it. Make a cross-compile option to the AA SDK for AROS and work on any other project that they have been sitting on or decide to work on. In other words, move forward past the Hyperion-Amiga debacle which had - I would say hampered both for way too long. Now that chapter is behind us (Amiga Inc, Hyperion and rest of us), it should be now the thought to move on and move forward.

I don't expect or necessarily want this to immediately become a Million units a year run-away situation with media attention every which way you turn and allow some growth. CommodoreUSA isn't a big super-company but it seems these folks ( Not to confuse Commodore USA with Commodore Licensing B.V. / Commodore International Corporation [formerly Yeahronimo] ) have some reasonable ways to approach the technology issue by not trying to make or reinvent the wheel on technology hw. So, using Natami or similar tech for Amiga classic support at some level of hardware tied into to an x86-PC running AROS would be reasonable option in my book and should not require quite as intense of R&D as designing NEW custom hardware.

Natami (or a variant) would sit suitably in the external box and a simple micro-ATX PC board could fit in the keyboard. Very straight forward.

Lets remember, we did something similar in the past between PC and Amiga and allowed the ability to mount drives on the PC and it be recognized in the Amiga. So a solution could be made so the Natami (or variant) would be seen and recognized in some form or manner by the AROS-x86 PC.

AROS containing what can be loosely described as Workbench 3.1 for x86. (with many improvements. (No need to debate technicality-I understand.)

So the OS framework of AROS should not pose a serious barrier of implementation.

EDIT: Hell, if they get through the AROS Kickstart replacement Bounty successfully - We just might even have AROS through and through. I do believe the premise of the Natami would be to provide a hardware-lavel "emulation" ( I know it isn't emulation but perhaps better than that by CLONING the hw ) and that option can become an option as an alternate method to the sw emulation option existing in AROS on - x86 PC hw.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 21-Nov-2010 at 09:20 AM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 12:09:09
#607 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Wildstar128
Good post!
I am a programmer in the 'C' and develop for Windows since 1994. Before that I developed for the Amiga.
What I most of all to develop is the Amiga, but there must be a market. The market must be serious, stable and focused on an Amiga with one hardware and one software.
Aros can be a good start. It would be great if Amigas operating system developed free from any business but in cooperation with the Commodore, Amiga.inc, users and developers of the software.
In this way we obtain a homogeneous development of the operating system and an insight into the code for software developers.

I do not think you can achieve this with the PPC-line. It would be too expensive. Nor do I believe that it is possible to achieve with Hyperion. They are too small and does not let anybody see the code. How much the environment can affect the function and appearance of OS4.x I do not know but think that it is almost nonexistent.


One more thing:
AROS must change its name to Workbench 4.0.

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cha05e90 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 13:52:41
#608 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1274
From: Germany

@linnar/@wildstar128

Reading posts like yours leads always to the surreal feeling that we might live on two or three different planets - in different solar systems...

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L8Knight 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 13:57:34
#609 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 125
From: Grand Blanc, MI

@cha05e90

Well ya gotta like Wildstar128's enthusiasm. :) I too am hopeful that some day we will all learn to coexist in peace and maybe have a little synergy amongst us. I don't see that happening anytime soon, but I am still hopeful...

--Barry Steenbergh

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number6 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 14:33:29
#610 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@Wildstar128

Quote:
Right.... but positive things could possibly happen. CommodoreUSA has a license to use the Amiga "trademark" for the particular application without issue but Amiga Inc. owns the trademarks. It is a licensure deal.


Correct. But then I have to question what might be the resulting changes in everyone's plans based on the sale of the Global IP Rights to the Iconic Amiga Computer Brand
Although the intent is quite clear as to why they are doing this (both in their words the reality of their financial condition):
Quote:
Amiga Inc., who is also actively seeking investment capital to fund the ongoing development of their enabling technologies

I still see the potential resulting sale throwing yet another set of variables into the mix. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your enthusiasm. I just see another great unknown here.

Quote:
In other words, move forward past the Hyperion-Amiga debacle which had - I would say hampered both for way too long.

It destroyed more opportunities than most people will ever know.

Quote:
Now that chapter is behind us (Amiga Inc, Hyperion and rest of us), it should be now the thought to move on and move forward.

With multiple threats being made in these very forums by Hyperion against C=USA indirectly and against AI directly, and nothing as yet recanted...can one really say the chapter is behind us?

Quote:
I don't expect or necessarily want this to immediately become a Million units a year run-away situation with media attention every which way you turn and allow some growth.

Reasonable thought, but to date it seems they have gone out of their way to institute press releases, which belie your thought that they should be "low key" in approach.

Quote:
( Not to confuse Commodore USA with Commodore Licensing B.V. / Commodore International Corporation [formerly Yeahronimo] ) have some reasonable ways to approach the technology issue by not trying to make or reinvent the wheel on technology hw.

Asiarim/Commodore Licensing B.V./C.I.C./Yeahronimo are the ones not trying to reinvent the wheel. C=USA is just following their game plan atm, imo. If anyone fine tunes that plan, I would expect it to be C=USA. It's clear that they are the ones exploring the possibilities and taking the heat in doing so on this very website. Whether they are looking at alternatives partly on behalf of Asiarim or not, is unstated, but I don't see Asiarim as being in a position to take any risk at this point.

Added upon rereading your post:
If you look at all of this strictly from a business perspective, you can make certain deductions. However, if you ignore the human element, you are only seeing one side of the problem and a very narrow set of solutions. I've written many times about ego (a necessity for those who have survived to this point), but an impediment to co-operation if its negative sides go unaddressed.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 21-Nov-2010 at 02:52 PM.

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mike 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 21-Nov-2010 15:48:08
#611 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2007
Posts: 406
From: Alpha Centauri

@Wildstar128

Quote:
So, using Natami or similar tech for Amiga classic support at some level of hardware tied into to an x86-PC running AROS would be reasonable option in my book and should not require quite as intense of R&D as designing NEW custom hardware.


Why on earth would you go do something like that? Firstly, x86 jit will run circles around anything classic, secondly, why not just run aros ooon the natami? With the kickstart replacement, aros is free to emulate classic up and to the left, having seamless integration should be no problem from here on. http://www.evillabs.net/wiki/index.php/AROS_m68k-amiga

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 5:15:33
#612 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

Quote:

cha05e90 wrote:
@linnar/@wildstar128

Reading posts like yours leads always to the surreal feeling that we might live on two or three different planets - in different solar systems...

And....?

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 5:35:19
#613 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@number6

Everything need not be commercially correct in desires. You can have a dream, a thought or what you want without always thinking correctly at all times.

I think the market is too small for expensive PPC stuff and that Hyperion and co have too little capital to get anywhere.

Commodore and co have significantly more capital also goes to the x86 line, which is much cheaper with much more material available slept. So more money for the cheaper stuff is a strong factor that PPC can not come near.

I wish Hyperion OS4.x would be converted to x86 and that they signed an agreement with the Commodore. But Hyperion want to go their own way to destruction like defiant children.

If the Commodore Amiga is not successful, time will be over definitely .... uh, a handful will probably continue to post messages how stupid Bill McEwen is / was ...

An x86 Amiga MUST have an Amiga-os and a clear Amiga inspired look and all the symbols that the Amiga is known for.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 7:19:02
#614 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9254
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
I wish Hyperion OS4.x would be converted to x86


Do you have some milions EUR to do that port?

Quote:
that they signed an agreement with the Commodore. But Hyperion want to go their own way to destruction like defiant children.


I remember that it was Amiga Technologies back in 1995 who choosed PowerPC as the new hardware platform. And it was Amiga.Inc (successor of Amiga Technologies) in 2001 who asked Hyperion to make OS4 (PowerPC)... At that time, most of our community supported PowerPC solution.

Quote:
An x86 Amiga MUST have an Amiga-os and a clear Amiga inspired look and all the symbols that the Amiga is known for.


Yes.

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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 9:38:17
#615 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@linnar Quote:
I wish Hyperion OS4.x would be converted to x86

Aw, common. How many years have you been here now? You really ought to know better than say such silly things. How many x86 threads does it take?

Super compressed recap: Hyperion are not stupid. Porting to x86 (while retaining compatibility with the existing PPC & 68k software that we worked so hard for) would be a major job. x86 having a different endianness is the biggest (but not only) problem. In the end it would cost a lot of money that I doubt they have. (There are of course a lot more complications than I mentioned.) So it is PPC or nothing IMHO, and PPC seems to be doing OK at the moment. Yes I would love OS4 on x86 but it's not that easy.

Last edited by ChrisH on 22-Nov-2010 at 09:38 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 9:45:28
#616 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9254
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:
and PPC seems to be doing OK at the moment.


I don´t share your opinion...

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 10:11:29
#617 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@linnar

Quote:
I wish Hyperion OS4.x would be converted to x86


Do you have some milions EUR to do that port?

Quote:
that they signed an agreement with the Commodore. But Hyperion want to go their own way to destruction like defiant children.


I remember that it was Amiga Technologies back in 1995 who choosed PowerPC as the new hardware platform. And it was Amiga.Inc (successor of Amiga Technologies) in 2001 who asked Hyperion to make OS4 (PowerPC)... At that time, most of our community supported PowerPC solution.

Quote:
An x86 Amiga MUST have an Amiga-os and a clear Amiga inspired look and all the symbols that the Amiga is known for.

Yes.

I have no million to the porta OS4.x to x86 but I have a good mood and with it you can go far .

1995 was the right time for PPC but it is no longer. The long development time for OS4.x has ensured that it is no longer in time.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 10:15:10
#618 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@mike

AROS natively will run at lightning speed on x86 hw. The premise of thought would use Natami (or some variant) to address handling classic Amiga stuff.

I was just providing an idea and a point of technical doability.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 10:29:00
#619 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
@linnar Quote:
I wish Hyperion OS4.x would be converted to x86

Aw, common. How many years have you been here now? You really ought to know better than say such silly things. How many x86 threads does it take?

Super compressed recap: Hyperion are not stupid. Porting to x86 (while retaining compatibility with the existing PPC & 68k software that we worked so hard for) would be a major job. x86 having a different endianness is the biggest (but not only) problem. In the end it would cost a lot of money that I doubt they have. (There are of course a lot more complications than I mentioned.) So it is PPC or nothing IMHO, and PPC seems to be doing OK at the moment. Yes I would love OS4 on x86 but it's not that easy.

I know that it is not easy with such a porting but a wish is easy.

My question is based on the fact that der is probably easier to develop an x86 version from scratch.
I also know that Hyperion is probably not able to do so for various reasons which you mention one, cost.

That is why I previously wrote to Hyperion painted floor himself into a corner. The only way to get out of the corner is to tread in the color of the paint on the floor. But where is Bill McEwen and smiles.

Hyperion agreement with Amiga Inc. is now a straitjacket.

Hyperion market is very small. If they want to develop economically, they must move to x86 where the real market is.

But it seems unlikely in the near future.

However, I have seen the rapid change required in this world, and Hyperion is a company that could fix it if they let a bit of pride.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 10:30:34
#620 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@linnar

I would fundamentally agree.... any PPC hardware would practically have to be CUSTOM made which is ABSOLUTELY impossible to be inexpensive and also have comparable computing performance. To even get a comparable (to a contemporary Core i7 series x86 & x64) PPC chip at the production volume for custom hw at the level Hyperion & co. would cost close to $1000 or more. The price breaks down with volume order which no one in the custom Amiga hw scene could hope or dream of meeting that level. If you do custom hw, then FPGA (say Natami or another similar system) and an outmoded PPC that is popped off of an old Mac. Then the Natami is for addressing classic Amiga stuff while you in essence can get the benefit of like two computers in one with AROS running on a Micro-ATX board or something - in the keyboard while the Natami is sitting inside the bigger box. Considering the form-factor of these units.

Even on a contemporary dual or quad core i7 running at say 2 GHz will run AROS very fast. Also, it can be reasonably upgraded with off-the-shelf micro-ATX PC boards. The R&D is considerably reduced to nearly zip. Mostly R&D can be focused on case design and such. Commodore et al and Amiga Inc. certainly has limited financial resources. It isn't like any of the players are Microsoft or IBM or Dell or Apple. I think considering the issues in relation with AOS 4.x and Hyperion and Amiga Inc. - I think for now these players need to keep some separation distance and let Hyperion focus on PPC and AOS 4.x on PPC stuff.

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