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tiffers 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 5:20:56
#161 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Jun-2007
Posts: 349
From: Perth, Western Australia

@umisef

Why not 0x8086 ids - (0x8086 0x0960 comes to mind - It'd drive people nuts wondering how they'd source an old microcontroller and why they'd want to use it in new product, and how they were running a full OS on it.)? Or, why not some random fake ids? That'd be cool, and it'd keep everyone guessing!

Are you proposing this was *allowed* to stay in

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koft 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 7:20:15
#162 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2007
Posts: 493
From: USA, TN, Memphis

@tiffers

Quote:

tiffers wrote:
@koft

Quote:

You wrote:

It's not standard for the industry to do this.... NDA saying you can't tell potential customers what part you are using in your product, nah. Nobody does that. That's absurd man...


So are you saying it's normal practice or 'business as usual' for hardware designers (specifically CPU or SoC developers) not to require their partners (regardless of size) to hide details about the future use of their (SoC producer) new design in upcoming product releases?

Do I understand correctly that you're saying it's routine to have NDAs which don't include clauses which limit the information which can be given out during the development phase of any product using newly released SoC/CPUs?

Are you also saying that IF any NDA actually should happen to (senselessly, according to you) include such a limitation, it would be written in said NDA as a specific, set time and date, after which the clause no longer ceases to be valid, and can be treated as non-existant, while the rest of the NDA would still be held to be current and true and indeed still as restrictive as it was before, with the exception of being able to reveal that small bit of information, which the targeted market is so keen to hear?

Well... I guess PA Semi and A-Eon must be a right bunch of ####s then! What do you say? Who could imagine ANYONE ever using a clause such as "won't reveal details until first production run is complete", so if dates slip, the NDA will still protect. Who could imagine a company including such clauses in their NDA because they wouldn't want a bunch of 'startups' announcing upcoming products, but never actually relasing them, and the SoC developer becomes associated with 'vapourware' announcements. Why would they care about such nonsense? Surely there couldn't possibly be people in the community that would actually keep a list of vapourware and continually bring it up, smearing the names of anyone involved or attached to that list? Couldn't be.. could it?

Oh and Trevor mentions that early in 2008, they got a CPU partner. When was PA Semi sold to Apple? Would the possible sale of all IP to Apple POSSIBLY have cause PA Semi to be extra careful with the wording and restrictions used in their NDAs at the time? Was there a period of negotiation, do you think - in your professional opinion, during which PA Semi had to continue to grow their business with new partnerships, and yet try to move forward with these negotiations, privately, all the time ensuring that their existing commitments would be met, whatever the outcome of such negotiations? Or does everyone run a business in exactly the same way because everyone has exactly the same set of circumstances in which they are running said business? All of this is assuming of course that PA Semi is the mysterious partner. Without knowing the partner, you can't assume to now the NDA clauses.

Give us a break. Conspiracy theories are fun... but only for a few minutes, or until you actually use your brain and think things through.

tiffers


Wow, that's a wall of text. TL;DR comes to mind... You're over reacting to the points I have made. Optimally, A-Eon would be shipping product right now. They originally claimed that we'd have this before summer, guess what, it's summer. A-Eon claims to have to be silent about the CPU because of an NDA agreement, but it's already past the date of their most optimal release schedule. The only way to fit their claim to something logical is if the NDA restricted them from talking about the "secret part" until *after* they were shipping units. That's anal to some absurd degree and it makes no sense whatsoever.

NDA restrictions for price lists and access to technical literature is understandable, though annoying. I've even seen NDAs regarding parts that were *about* to be publicly released with samples being delivered before hand to engineers. Never once have I seen an NDA which restricted talking about the part until the final end product was scheduled to hit customers doors. That's absurd. A-Eon isn't talking about the CPU because they choose not to, and it's part of their bizarre marketing strategy.

In my opinion it's a shame they've chosen to go this route in the PR department. We've seen endless waves of holy wars because of it. I'm glad though, I've gotten sick of all the BS. I picked up an emac earlier today and installed MorphOS and was thoroughly impressed to be honest. Half the power of an A1X1K for a grand total of 256 dollars. And man is that sweet that the cost of the machine + MOS license happened to be a power of 2.

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pavlor 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 8:30:00
#163 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9373
From: Unknown

@koft

Quote:
I picked up an emac earlier today and installed MorphOS and was thoroughly impressed to be honest.


Nice!

Quote:
Half the power of an A1X1K for a grand total of 256 dollars.


If the CPU in X1000 is PA6T, the it should be nearly 3 times faster (in sense Y=3*X) in integer and at least 6 times faster in FPU operations (single core performance)...

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nexus 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 8:30:35
#164 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Feb-2005
Posts: 429
From: Germany

@koft

Quote:


They originally claimed that we'd have this before summer, guess what, it's summer. A-Eon claims to have to be silent about the CPU because of an NDA agreement, but it's already past the date of their most optimal release schedule. The only way to fit their claim to something logical is if the NDA restricted them from talking about the "secret part" until *after* they were shipping units. That's anal to some absurd degree and it makes no sense whatsoever.



I haven't read all posts (especially not the long ones) and I can't judge if koft is right in everything but here, I think, he has a point:

*IF* AEON were on schedule we would already know about the CPU.

However, I'm not really that interested in knowing the CPU right now. I'm the typical Amiga user, I think. I'm waiting until something happens and if it's usefull then I'm glad. If nothing (useful) happens, nothing has changed and why should I be angry about it? I neither have bet all my money nor my life on the next generation Amiga, hence, I can't lose *anything*.

Let's see it optimistic! At least, there are people who try to make the Amiga world becoming (even ) better and compared to the many years ago, a lot good things have already happened due to those people! So there's no reason to complain because there's nothing we can do about it and most people couldn't *and* wouldn't do anything better anyway. Therefore, I see the fast progress (compared to the long "nothing-or-even-destructiv-things-happens"-era) very optimistic.

So, if you don't like X1000 nor any SAM or PegasosII or if you just don't have the money for a new Amiga, why do you complain? If there's no new Amiga you would be in the same situation If you want something different, then chose among the alternatives (from MorphOS over AROS to UAE and even Linux or Windows and even you can stay with your A500). Free your mind. It's your choice. Nobody is forcing you to be an unsatisfied Amigan all your life


regards,
nexus


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DAX 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 8:49:09
#165 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@koft
so here you come out, a MOS user trying to discredit AEON in order to illustrate how good his chosen option is.

First, you should understand that this kind of antagonistic behavior scares away many from your chosen platform (which is a shame).

Second, many nice MOS users would never want to be associated with the way you behave here (and don't play dumb, you have biggest collection of accepted Abuse Reports than anyone on this board).

3rd, The machine is aimed at AmigaOS power users and developers which understand perfectly the hurdles of development and can bear with no difficulty both the price and release date delay.

Here you are trying to sell ice to the esquimos (convincing AOS4 aficionados of who knows what) without any ability to do so, and disgracing the MorphOS community.

But if that makes you happy...

P.S
I hope that sooner or later you will understand that the ultimate demise of AmigaOS it's not a necessary condition for other camp to thrive, and that trying to discredit those you dislike ends up coming back like a boomerang

Last edited by DAX on 23-Jun-2010 at 08:51 AM.

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opi 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 9:15:07
#166 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Mechanic

Quote:
Kind of makes me ashamed to even have AROS on one of my machines.


It must be painful to use OS4 for you, as "your platform" have nice share of crazy fanatics. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't care?

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opi 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 9:18:54
#167 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
(and no not from koft)


Before someone asks, it was me reporting it. I'm not "AR button happy" but there's a difference between disagreement and ad hominem attacks.

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nexus 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 9:32:29
#168 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Feb-2005
Posts: 429
From: Germany

@opi

Quote:

..
as "your platform" have nice share of crazy fanatics
..


That's true for *all* platforms and *especially* for amiga-like platforms (beside AROS -- I never have seen an AROS guy talking stuff like AOS4/AOS3/MOS-users).

Fortunately, this is not true for the majority of users -- or at least, I hope so.

By the way, seeing the numbers of posts with discussions/ arguments/quarrellings involving you, someone could argue that you could belong to that "crazy fanatics" as well? Of course, it's just an impression by me (who refuses to follow threads like this in detail) and I don't want to imply that you're belonging to such a group. So, I apologize if I'm completely wrong here.

Actually, I don't understand people debating over and over again in endless discussions about such things anyway..

regards,
nexus

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vidarh 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:07:07
#169 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@itix

Quote:
Many many years ago when there was an Amiga event in Finland I saw how one guy wrote small app on a demo machine. If you leave machines unattended anything can happen..


That reminds me of how my friends and I liked to terrorize the staff of the local computer shop by writing all kinds of programs on the machines they had on display... They had a steady job keeping an eye on what might pop up on the screens and turning machines off and on :)

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umisef 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:12:59
#170 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1677
From: Melbourne, Australia

@minator

Quote:
However there is something very interesting about the specs of the p5020, It looks remarkably like an enhanced PA-Semi chip.


How so?

Especially compared to looking remarkably like an evolutionary progression on the other (32 bit) family members, with which it is, after all, pin compatible (whatever *that* means in this case...), and which seem to have shared the exact same internal structure for the last two years.

Quote:
My guess is X1000 will ship with a Freescale branded CPU that is basically a rebadged PA-Semi chip.


That makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason the PA6T is anything but dead and buried is the need of (very very influential) existing customers to continue its use in their existing products. Thus any "rebadged PA-Semi chip" would have to be packaged compatibly with the original PA-Semi chip to be of any use to those customers.
On the other hand, the p5020 is a member of an established family, which *also* imposes a particular packaging, which obviously won't match that of the PA6T.

You don't "upgrade" a motherboard to a completely different CPU in a different package/pinout. That's a pretty major redesign.

So unless you believe that Freescale would be willing to make a custom-packaged version of one or the other, at the tiny unit count that A-Eon may move, the X1000 is not going to straddle the divide between those architectures.

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steril606 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:32:04
#171 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

Since the discussion came on on the last page, I'd love "Amiga" to take a sidestep, and not just follow whatever's on top powerwise at the moment.


Look at what Nintendo did with the Wii. Or what Apple did 13 years ago with the first iMac/iBook.


In my view "Amiga" needs to take this approach to heart even more than Nintendo did back in 2005.


We will never have a machine as fast and capable as what is available in the x86-market. And don't even dream about a comparable price.

The same goes with software. With the size of our community it won't magically appear.


So, create something "different".
Create something, that appeals to people on another level than pure mips/flops-power.

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BigD 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:39:22
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@steril606

Quote:
So, create something "different". Create something, that appeals to people on another level than pure mips/flops-power.


I believe that's is what they were trying to do with the XMOS chip! I still fail to see why I'd need the ability to use the 'Transputer' style parallel processing or board emulation benefits that XMOS provides! The Varisys guys seem to throw down the guantlet to the Amiga community to see how it would be utilised. Isn't he supposed to be selling 'us' the concept?

Would it help emulate the Amiga custom chips?

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steril606 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:46:02
#173 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

@BigD

I think that XMOS-thing is a nice detail, but it won't appeal outside some nerdy coder circles of people.

Even in the quite nerdy Amiga scene, most people are not quite seeing what this thing will be useful for, from my impressions...

No, we need something "fancy" and "boutique". Amiga needs to be fashionable..

And at the moment so many people are starting to hate Apple, it would be the perfect time to step up... ;)

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BigD 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 10:58:16
#174 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@steril606

Well it's got an engraved boing ball on the x1000 case and a nice kyboard! I think you're expecting too much if you expect to have a 'Minority Report' style control system for the GUI or a custom designer case!

They've provided an XMOS board - CHECK
They've customised a PC case - CHECK
They've chosen a highish spec dual core processor - CHECK

The only secrets left are the exact price and confirmation of the processor type! The bonus would be a bundle pack with Timberwolf and full Classic Emulation system included.

There are surely no gimmicky/fashion based secrets/curve balls on the horizon, although the keyboard looks and feels great

Last edited by BigD on 23-Jun-2010 at 10:58 AM.

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DAX 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:00:18
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@steril606
Problem is, Ainc in the past wanted to capitalize on the Amiga name with different projects that weren't "that" Amiga, while the community wanted new computers and modern OS.

There was also an editorial made on one of the last issues of Enigma Amiga Magazine (the last newsstand publication here, lasted until 2001) telling readers to "stop" whining about that, and that if we wanted to be successful we needed those Ainc stuff.

So the question comes again: what do you want, new computers running an advanced version of AmigaOS or something "different" just for the sake of being successful?

Last edited by DAX on 23-Jun-2010 at 11:01 AM.

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steril606 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:26:26
#176 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

@DAX
Also I want new computers, running an advanced version of AmigaOS.

I just would love to see more "cleverness" in product design and marketing. Anything else won't get the Amiga any new audience.

The X1000 will be an awesome machine, and I wish A-Eon/Trevor all the success in the world with it, but if you estimate it will reach anybody outside of the diehard-Amiga-Fanbase, you are on the wrong way, my friend.

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BillE 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:30:44
#177 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1192
From: Northern Scotland

@koft

Quote:
Too busy working on things that yield profit
...


Yet you seem top have PLENTY of time to TROLL. You can't be that busy!

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umisef 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:35:26
#178 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1677
From: Melbourne, Australia

@tiffers

Quote:
Are you proposing this was *allowed* to stay in


No, I am proposing someone screwed up. Happens all the time.

However, HyperionMP is trying to suggest, or hint, or imply, without committing to actually saying so, that rather than a screwup, this PCI ID list was an intentional diversion.

I merely provided arguments for why I consider that an unlikely scenario.

(Of course, this is the same HyperionMP who is talking about a motherboard designed by a company which has been in business for 15 years, so maybe he is just talking about a completely different motherboard which just so happens to also be called "X1000"...

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Boot_WB 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:39:18
#179 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@umisef

'Plausible deniability'?

I think you'reprobably right, but (given the NDA) Hyperion/A-Eon have no choice but to maintain a policy of denial/non-confirmation.

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gerograph 
Re: X1000 CPU clue :)
Posted on 23-Jun-2010 11:46:46
#180 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2007
Posts: 901
From: Moers - Germany

@steril606
Quote:
So, create something "different".
Create something, that appeals to people on another level than pure mips/flops-power.


Yep, agree 100%, but what is/will be the difference ? What could appeal to people outside Amiga Community ? At the moment there is nothing really... only thing I see is the XMOS chip. I still hope/belive they have to find/found a specialized nichemarket where they can earn money from.
So, ideas how to create it different/appealing ???

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