@ShadesOfGrey

Well, i'm not sure to understand your answer.

Like itix and I said, the purpose is to make it easier to port apps from MorphOS to AROS or OS4, since there's apparently a demand for it. Obviously the opposite could (and should) also happen at some point, and having a more advanced "common" toolkit certainly doesn't hurt.

Anyway, If you have such concerns about MUI taking over or something, i wonder how you feel about the applications for OS4 using toolkits like QT/GTK over X11. Let me guess, it's not a problem because they're Free? :)

Last edited by Fab on 25-Aug-2010 at 09:56 PM.

@vidarh

Quote:

but personally it seems to me it's currently the best bet - at least for now - at portability across MOS/AROS/AOS4/classic and that puts it ahead of the alternatives by a long stretch.

I made the mistake of using the word "classic" the other day, when I meant to say OS3.x. In other words, emu is also worthy of your list.
I've spoken with some "classic" users and posted their opinions (to date)
post #18

#6

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@Mechanic

Quote:

With that said, the people in charge of the OS's need to ring in and tellof their decision first.

For the time being, will you settle for Steve Solie's input?

Post #21

btw-I see to much "cart before horse thinking going on" meaning people are taking leaps forward about problems, trading software, etc. It is fine to think ahead, but until certain responses are obtained through email, most points are moot.

#6

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@number6

Yes.

@ShadesOfGrey

Uh, FYI, I'm an American and I don't call the things I fear Communism, I call them "Right-wing 'Christian' Conservatism" .
You're apologizing to a troll. You shouldn't feed them. When I wrote the term 'communism' - (lower case; single quote)- meaning 'community-like' user interface and not integrated or the API of the Amiga OS. Of course the trolls don't contribute to developers and commenced to name calling. It's a terrible disrespect. Anyway...

No offense to Snuffy, who I believe (and hope) is addressing the legal limitations of the cross-pollenization(sp?) of certain aspects of key technologies pertaining to AmigaOS and MorphOS.

Pollenization? It's 'pollination', but that's in botanical sciences. More in-line with computer science is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface
Especially Amiga's OS API.

I enjoyed your literary presentation of 'pros and cons' on this user interface topic. It's been the proverbial nail in Amigas side since the beginning of time -- thanks to the narrow minds of Commodore. I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing. The question I would ask the Amiga OS4 Team is what is the future of Reaction the system user interface?

@ShInKurO
I'm not 'anti' to any of you programming efforts, it's just that owners of the OS are not addressing the issue which I think started way back in Amiga OS2 IIRC.

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@Snuffy

Thank you

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@Mechanic

Quote:

What I do not want to see is some point in the (near) future where the UI fails to work due to some 'unnecessary' change to the OS and now everybody is POed at each other and the whole platform suffers

If one of the OS's is changed in such a way as to break a toolkit, then most applications will break too. These are API's that have remained largely unchanged for 15-20 years.

And it's simply not possible for them to make API changes to break Zune that could just be worked around with a new Zune release. UI toolkits don't require any magic low level OS support.

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@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

Would re-implementing MUI 4 be trivial compared to encouraging the development of Feelin? That is a sincere question. As I made clear in my response to ShInKurO, I don't know enough about Feelin of MUI 4 to make an informed decision on the technical merits of either. My stance is more of an ideological one.

We're not talking about re-implementing MUI4, but re-implementing the features that MUI4 adds beyond what Zune already supports.

It will not be trivial, but neither would bringing Feelin to the same level as MUI4, or even Zune - in fact it would be a massive amount of work.

I won't speculate about the precise amount of work for either, but it seems substantial, and even if you then bring Feeling to that state you face the issue that there are no apps relying on it, while if you bring Zune to MUI4 level, there are a number of MUI4 apps that are suddenly far easier to port - it helps offset the "cost" in developer time of improving Zune.

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@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

any case, I, myself, am still concerned about adopting a standard seemingly controlled by one faction in the Amiga Community. A commercial entity at that.

That's not worth worrying about. If Zune reaches MUI4 level, then the community controls a toolkit that's at MUI4 level. If MUI 5 arrives and lots of app developers suddenly start requiring MUI5, then yes, it'd be an issue. But that won't take away the capabilities that are added to Zune, and they will keep benefiting everyone else.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, I don't particularly like MUI, so maybe at some point another cross platform toolkit would be worthwhile. But the benefit of MUI right now is that it removes portability barriers and gets developers the potential of a larger audience with much less work.

I see improving Zune as separate from the discussion of what the best/ideal cross platform toolkit for the Amiga-like platforms ought to be longer term.

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If we are going to invest time and effort into a cross platform gui lets get it right. What do we want going forward? Easy building tools, fully skinable. advanced scalling graphics, readable source, cross platform, fun to develope.
-Mui is good but closed source so we have to build from scratch and will be missing many of the features that we need.
-Zune is open but still will have issues with the features we want.
-Feelin is open source, cross platform, has css and xml making it easy to build layouts, has per pixel control over skinning... Faults are sources may be a mess (don't know) the gui builder is incompatable with the css build and need some bug hunting.
-QT hmmm has everything... But it won't feel like an amiga? Change the look. Each platform can run with whatever they feel is the "right" look. Optimise the code if you want more priorty or responsiveness. Call it Qui or Tui or QlassTact. Give the developer the gui builders. Let beginners learn to compile the open source Linux projects already out there.

Doesn't look bad. http://kde-look.org/index.php?xcontentmode=9


Yes Mui has the majority of software and users right now. People who love Mui will always develope for it and that's cool. This is an opportunity to move ahead on all fronts.

Just my opinion.

Regards
Gnu

Last edited by Gnu on 26-Aug-2010 at 03:41 AM.

@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

You speak as if you are an authority on Zune. Perhaps you contribute to the project? Could that not unfairly bias you against anything other than Zune? Even if that's not the case, you do appear to have a strong opinion against anything other than MUI/Zune.

As I've just written some replies ago, before to dev something on The Amiga I've readed and tested Reaction and other Amiga third part frameworks, my conclusion was taken after these tests and with an IT know how (I'm going to take a degree in IT in October), so should I've a sort of idea about UI frameworks and how they should work to give me some features without to make me crazy :)
When I've choosen MUI API I've written code cross-platform (OS3-OS4-MorphOS-AROS, I'm an OS4 user!) and so I've discovered so many Zune bugs which I've properly reported and help to fix (I'm into AROS-Dev ml), so I know how Zune is written and I've inserted some ideas even into Zune itself to make it much MUI compatible. Some days were nightmares because Zune was not really deeply tested and some bugs were so tedious... now, thanks to the help of many devs (Sonic, Georg, Mazze, etc...I never thanks them enough:) ) many of these bugs are gone, but many others are remained to wait to be fixed. I'm happy to have helped in Zune (and even in MUI in certain cases, with my reports) bugfix, because it is very nice to use MUI API (while for example Reaction is so far from OOP POV development in many situations, and this was very sad when I've begin to write software on the Amiga).
I don't know if you are a developer, but I can tell you if you love OOP, the MUI API are the only good choice you can do. Obviously you can use them even you program in another paradigm.

Quote:

Now it's true that Feelin isn't in use for many if any programs. Which effectively puts Feelin in a Catch-22 situation. It isn't being used, so why use it? I'm also aware that Feelin has been criticized for certain shortcomings. Though, to be honest I don't recall many of the specifics. But then again, Feelin a free and open framework that can be improved. Zune may be free and open, but MUI certainly is not (yet?).

Feelin is obscure, nobody have used it, so it's not tested and nobody knows its API and how they really should behave. Would you go into a not tested car? In the actual Amiga situation I assure you it's very unlikely many programmers develop Feelin softwares and in this way they test deeply Feelin.
In these conditions, and in the actual Amiga situation Feelin is not more than a style exercise.
No dev who has a minimal IT know-how and time to spend on the Amiga would use his time to dev on a not tested framework: it's a suicide.
Nobody could help you if you have a problem because nobody knows Feelin. MUI is well know, this means you go in an Amiga chat, expose your problem and someone could help you. This sort of help is very good for a person who begin to dev on a platform, and it is necessary on a platform like the Amiga (documentation sucks at all). Reaction has even this problem (there are much more MUI experts than Reaction's one, so you can receive help in easier way than for Reaction).

Quote:

If the secondary argument in favor of MUI/Zune is its technical superiority. I'd have to ask, "Is it really?" Now, I'm not familiar with the internals of Feelin, MUI, or ReAction (or wxWidgets for that matter).

Short answer : YES. :)
I would want invite you to dev a simple application in MUI, and after to write the same on with Reaction, or other ones.
Do you know C language? well, read my guide:

http://code.google.com/p/guidetoamigacompatibleprogramming/source/browse/

Yes my native language is italian and my english sucks a lot, but some devs help me to translate it :)



Quote:

So, I can only accept that what you say about Zune becoming an almost perfect drop in replacement for MUI 3.8 (in certain cases?) as being true.

In certain cases: because Zune has some boug and misses some features of MUI3.8 yet.

Quote:

And from what I've gathered, there has been some progress in including some MUI 4 functionality in Zune. But do we really all agree that MUI is just so much better than anything else? Do we all agree that Feelin, for example, is so absolutely inadequate that it should be abandoned? Are there no disadvantages at all to basing the present and future Amiga UIs on MUI and its successors?

MUI is:

-Amiga original;
-Has a wonderful notification concept, easy and powerful, many modern frameworks on other platforms sucks compared to this one;
-MUI give all powers to user (Amiga Interface Style Guide concept): user can personalize all UI interface of all programs to have a common style and behaviours, or you (user) could personalize each program with its own UI style. User has the latest decision at all;
-Many MUI features are appeared after years in other framework out Amiga world, so MUI it's a very Amiga rapresentation like other only Amiga things;

Quote:

Another issue that concerns me just who exactly controls the source and licensing for MUI? It's unclear to me (at least) that the MorphOS development team legally controls the source and licensing of MUI, even if they effectively control it.

It's very clear: MUI it's fully controlled by its author Stephan Stunz. He is the only one who gives powers to source of his framework, and he for contract gives full access to MUI4 source code to MOS team (mantain, bugfix), and on MUI3.9 source code to OS4 team (only bugfix and adapt to new OS4 APIs).

Quote:

Furthermore, adopting MUI 4 as the base line could also mean constantly playing catch up with any successors to MUI 4. Much in the same way the open source Mono is playing catch up with Microsoft's .net. Granted, that Feelin may need some catching up to do with respect to its base feature set compared to present Amiga UI frameworks. - Again, I don't know just how far behind Feelin is in terms of being a viable alternative. Though what I've seen on the web site makes me believe it isn't completely useless. Especially if it got more attention. - But once it reaches a certain point of development, it wouldn't necessarily be dependent on providing compatibility to features or functions defined by a proprietary framework such as MUI 4 and beyond.

The Amiga development/enanched time is very different from IT world. MUI5 is a very far idea IHMO

Quote:

Restating my core opinion for the last time; adopting a proprietary framework, even one reverse engineered, is not the the best way of implementing an across-Amiga-platform UI paradigm. I would rather see the use of some non-Amiga derived/inspired framework like GTK, Qt, wxWidgets, or other OSS framework then a proprietary one.

You can use that frameworks in a better and more powerful way on UNIX world, they have nothing in common with Amiga feeling. And to transform them into something which has Amiga feeling it's something which takes 10 times more than port them on the Amiga. And you remember: The Amiga development/enanched time is very different from IT world.

Last edited by ShInKurO on 26-Aug-2010 at 12:29 AM.
Last edited by ShInKurO on 26-Aug-2010 at 12:26 AM.

@Snuffy

So for you the term "communism" means a sort of chaos or a chaotic system ?
I don't see the point expecially in IT discussions, really ...

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@samo79

i suspect if you are really right wing paranoid you might link the idea of open source to "communism". sigh.

well, im really not able to read through all these epic posts but even then i wonder, why or for whom is it so dangerous to have the current mui or its derivate available on all amiga platforms. (mostly defined by hardware the users want to stick to, it seems). shinkuro aims at a very solid practical target, and he is right in every aspect of what he states and demands, his credibility as developer and os4 user remains a bonus. i really wonder what sort of ground shaking discussion arouse out of that. its not the question whether this is or is not a heresy but who and how is going to undertake it.

Last edited by wawa on 26-Aug-2010 at 01:56 AM.

@wawa

Ya expecially when the real term means the opposite of the chaos, perhaps an appropriate one could be anarchy or turbo-capitalism otherwise ... aniway ..

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@shinkuro

Quote:

Feelin is obscure, nobody have used it, so it's not tested and nobody knows its API and how they really should behave. Would you go into a not tested car? In the actual Amiga situation I assure you it's very unlikely many programmers develop Feelin softwares and in this way they test deeply Feelin. In these conditions, and in the actual Amiga situation Feelin is not more than a style exercise. No dev who has a minimal IT know-how and time to spend on the Amiga would use his time to dev on a not tested framework: it's a suicide.

I have to Agree, also we don't have any news of it since 2008 or so ...

But it's not a sad loose IMHO, a project like this was useless since beginning ... we have already 2 or 3 toolkits !

They are enough ...

Last edited by samo79 on 26-Aug-2010 at 02:27 AM.
Last edited by samo79 on 26-Aug-2010 at 02:26 AM.

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@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

I can accept the need for MUI 3.x compatibility for legacy applications and even more modern applications. My concern is that adopting MUI 4 as the de facto standard relegates just about everything else to the scrap heap. Or at least makes the development of any other alternative far more difficult... Including anything derived from non-Amiga platforms. Not to mention that MUI 4, and ostensibly its successors, are part of the MorphOS team's bread and butter. Do we want a common framework that essentially exclude the concerns one group or another?

Let's say we went with Feelin'. That's assuming we get beyond the long and boring discussion that takes in every API under the sun. We then have an even longer discussion about the best way to take the API forward, before we can define a bounty.

When we do have a bounty, who's going to put money in for a framework that's never been used? How much more would a Zune bounty have received?

Then we're looking for a developer. Not to patch up an existing framework they're familiar with, but basically build a whole new one.... Oh, and they have to be willing to do it all for a smaller sum!

Finally after a long development period, we have a usable framework. We still have no apps running on it, and developers haven't learnt to use it yet. Chances are there's still no consensus. Most people are still writing apps in MUI and Reaction. Eventually we might have one major app written in Feelin' - something comparable to one of the many that already exist for Zune.

How many years will this process take? What have we really gained by it?

So...

@thread

Can we quit the ideology for a second, and just stick a few coins in a jar?

Chris

@samo79

3 toolkits?

dont forget things like strom wizard that has just been updated or ntui - a new gui toolkit in making on amiforce.de. this is amiga. it is dead... and thus everybody is cooks his own soup from a scrap of it it sitting around the common fire. its ok.

speaking of which maybe it would be interesting to ask wanderer if ntui could provide a mui wrapper, but:
1. ntui is not finished let alone tested,
2. it is another "possibility" distracting from well defined target outlined by shinkuro,
3. i dont know if the concepts behind it fit mui philosophy,
4. it is going to be open as far as i know but programmed in amiblitz, a basic dialect with a small user base.

@shinkuro
so lets stick to the original idea. im a noob, but i sense the most important thing is to find a coder interested to do it, someone from aros team perhaps, and someone who provides him with "clean room" information about mui4 features and functions from the mos team. then we can drop in the coins.

@itix Quote:

MUI4 didnt appear until 2005 or so. Tho, I think MUI 3.9 in MorphOS 1 was slightly more advanced than its OS4 counterpart and MorphOS version didnt have shareware restrictions.

Thanks for the clarification. The situation isn't as bad as I thought then. Would still be nice to know something about the birth & history of MUI4 though...

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@Kicko Quote:

@Fab Seems you mos guy log every small step os4 guys says and does :) Anyway i had some laughs :)

Which is kinda funny, since the os4 devs (or at least the Frieden's) don't give a rats-ass (or follow at all) what the mos guys do! Not saying either approach is better, just amusing to see such different approaches from people with such strong convictions.

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