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PosterThread
asymetrix 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 15-May-2014 20:28:37
#801 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@thread

wiki is great but i hate the size of code. I cannot read it :

http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmiWest_2013_Lesson_1

Thie size of CLI text is perfect

C source code is tiny unreadable :(

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pavlor 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 15-May-2014 20:42:30
#802 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9094
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

Looks OK in IE I use right now.

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asymetrix 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 15-May-2014 21:54:14
#803 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@pavlor

in chrome its small.

Last edited by asymetrix on 15-May-2014 at 09:55 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 15-May-2014 21:57:24
#804 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4406
From: Portsmouth England

@asymetrix

It is small isn't it. Finally someone who agrees with me

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asymetrix 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 15-May-2014 22:31:50
#805 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@broadblues

found the problem :

just need to remove the monospace from css :

Quote:

.c.source-c {
font-family: monospace;
}

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MichaelMerkel 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 16-May-2014 14:05:40
#806 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 812
From: Ilvesheim, Germany

@asymetrix

Quote:

asymetrix wrote:
@broadblues

found the problem :

just need to remove the monospace from css :

Quote:

.c.source-c {
font-family: monospace;
}



in odyssey the problem is/was that in the settings the monospace font was set to a much smaller size than the normal font (13 compared to 16) thus makink it smaller.
using monospace in the style sheet is correct imo.
maybe the font size should be set in the syle sheet more explicitely.

regards...
michael

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Hyperionmp 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 13:45:12
#807 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@all

New update on Hyperion Entertainment's Blog: "Breaking the memory barrier"

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 14:00:31
#808 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3418
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Very interesting to read, and very well written article.

thank you

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tlosm 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 14:23:16
#809 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2685
From: Amiga land

@Hyperionmp

Really interesting information, hope one day we will break the barrier of 256mb of Vram for have the opportunity to have the use of 512mb to 4 gb of new and cheaper video boards.

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marko 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 14:48:23
#810 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Dec-2007
Posts: 1805
From: Gothenburg, THE front side of Sweden ;), (via Finland), EU

@Hyperinmp

Thanks, very interesting read, keep it up!

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cymru 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 18:58:35
#811 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2014
Posts: 164
From: South of the Great Divide

@Thread

I had forgotten about that aspect of memory management from when it was popular with the IBM-type machine in the '90s. I believe it was called LIMM EMS for Lotus-Intel-Microsoft-Memory expanded memory system, or some such nonsense. If fact I recall some page boundary mix up that could occur on Intel chips if all the stars were aligned (and the 6502 had a similar issue). It used to be a programming bitch from the paging point of view, mapping in and out the blocks, but I'm sure techniques have advanced to make it quite useful, i.e., better than swap partitions.

Be nice to be educated on current thoughts on the subject.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 21:18:48
#812 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@cymru

Yes I hope private virtual memory can also use physical memory out side the 4 Gbytes scope, I think that is just going to be easier to work with, anyway I think Extended Memory Objects can be useful for emulators like Basilisk and EUAE, as emulators use lots of memory. That's if its easy accessible.

We will see when the updated SDK is out.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 09:20 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 21:35:11
#813 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@Hyperionmp

Thank you for keeping the community posted about things that goes on.

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olegil 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 21:40:58
#814 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@NutsAboutAmiga

It sure has potential, even if requires some effort to use. Lately I've seen a couple of things in GNU/Linux that require effort to use, so right now I wouldn't be afraid of getting my hands dirty with this EMO stuff (intentional acronym?).

Now, if I could just remember what it was I struggled so badly with last week... Ah, yes. kbhit(), which exists in Windows but not Linux. In UBoot I used tstc(), which is basically the same thing. But in Linux it took a FAIR bit of software to emulate that function. I was almost sad I couldn't run all my code inside UBoot. Allthough, I'm sure I could if I was stubborn enough.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 22:01:07
#815 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@olegil

The problem whit emulators are that emulated system memory has to be shared between threads/processes some threads emulates sound and some Ethernet but they all need access to the same memory, it can be tricky to do, if memory above 4Gbytes can not shared, some creating some sort memory handler tread will be inefficient, this has to be direct access.

I have sort of the same issue whit graphic memory on graphic cards, the result is that a need memory buffer in system memory, because memory is not shareable, any way direct access to graphic card memory is slow, so here it does make sense to use a buffer. Anyway you don't want any complex memory emulation routine as it adds overhead.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 10:02 PM.

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cymru 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 22:22:05
#816 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2014
Posts: 164
From: South of the Great Divide

@NutsAboutAmiga

Having looked at the coding issue years back, if the emulator opened and ran on an artificial memory map where the virtual memory was artificially maintained using pages in ram, it could work, but think of the effort that might require with the several layers of virtualization: programs running on an emulator, that was running on a virtual memory map laid out on the host machine's system. It is possible for sure, but it is a rewrite from near scratch. Best left to folks with a Program Manager (of the human type) with deep pockets. Or I am blowing gas out of my rear...

Now the graphic memory issue is different when access is maintained by the GPU; it can perform similar memory tasks as the CPU, but much faster with the limitation only being the PCI interface.

Last edited by cymru on 22-May-2014 at 10:25 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 23:00:49
#817 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@cymru

Quote:
but it is a rewrite from near scratch. Best left to folks with a Program Manager (of the human type) with deep pockets. Or I am blowing gas out of my rear..


Your maybe blowing gas out of your rear

Basilisk has memory emulation already, to handle memory offset as memory can't live in the same address space, memory has to exist in the allocated memory for the emulator.

So it basically some thing like:

#define readmem_long(addr,value) *((ULONG *) (Baseaddr + addr)) = value
#define writemem_long(addr,value) value = *((ULONG *) (Baseaddr + addr));

this are wrapped into macros or functions, so its retaliative easy to inject a more advanced memory emulation, but you don't want to over complicate it as the emulation will run slow.

EUAE's memory emulation is more complicated, then Basilisk memory emulation, but it mostly works the same way.

On x86 it even has to do BE/LE conversion.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 11:05 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 11:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2014 at 11:01 PM.

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mbrantley 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 22-May-2014 23:23:34
#818 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 524
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

@Hyperionmp

Very good reading! Thanks, Hyperionmp and Hans-Jorg.

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cymru 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 23-May-2014 0:19:06
#819 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2014
Posts: 164
From: South of the Great Divide

@NutsAboutAmiga

I don't think you are thinking about this from the bottom up; while "x" may have memory management built in, it doesn't know about the Amiga's (system "y" for example) memory management. To make "x" aware that you can call a page of memory from a virtual to real address, it needs to be made aware, and that is not just changing a pointer; it involves a major rewrite. It has to make a call to the memory paging API, and then control its own virtual memory pasted on the Amiga's. Memory may be available, partially available, or not and decisions made; decisions on these issues could be made by vote, by committee, by one person, or by a senior manager. Obviously, small projects don't need this but may take forever to get out of beta.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: An abundance of AmigaOS
Posted on 23-May-2014 0:49:06
#820 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@cymru

I think your taking about emulating a mmu , mmu emulation is slow, and there is almost no gain.

Quote:
Committee? senior manager? It does work that way open source world.


Developers read and study and try to keep him self up to date, maybe the developer has some experience whit that kind of thing or maybe does not, taking on open source projects is a way to gain experience.

Committee does not write code, they cost money and drive nice cars.

Some senior manager's don't even know how to write code, what a manager know is how priorities and schedule activities and motivate co workers, and so on, for a one man job you don't need a senior manager, a experienced developer will know how to priorities, one developer can only do one task at the time, so schedule activities are pretty simple.

More fun to code when you don't have a senior manager hanging over you neck tell you do things the wrong way, when you know how to do it the correct way.

Quote:
small projects don't need this but may take forever to get out of beta.


That depends on the developer his experience, what he knows, the amount of time he can spend on it. (after work hours)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-May-2014 at 01:35 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-May-2014 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-May-2014 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-May-2014 at 01:00 AM.

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