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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
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Vistaus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 1-May-2014 9:42:08
#121 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

It's fine that you keep on referencing scripting languages, but the point I was trying to make earlier was to make it easier to create APPS. A script can help make an app work, but it doesn't create the app itself. My point is that there should be a little more support for easier programming languages. That way, people don't have to learn C or Hollywood or E to write an app for AOS4.
Scripts =! apps.

Yes, I know about C and its history but fact is that C is not something you can learn in a few days, unlike, for example, Python. It would be nice if app developing would be easier on AOS4 w/o C, that way more programmers and people wanting to help out can quickly learn an easier language (like Python) and start developing right away.

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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 4:31:54
#122 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Vistaus

C is not difficult to learn.

Python is a 'scripting' languange.

What makes you think Hollywood is harder to learn than python? It seems to be the beginner choice.

There also ARexx.

Whichever language you choose you need to learn to code, which is not difficult, but some take to it better than others.

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 6:01:13
#123 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5202
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Vistaus

GUI on top of a script might not seem no different to user than any other "application".

For example ... someone could say that C# coded applications on windows are not real applications as they are not compiled to native binary but rather executed a bit like scripts by .NET engine.

So, IMO, script languages are perfectly ok for smaller "apps". But for good larger apps some real programming language and native builds might be the better way.

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Thorham 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 7:11:37
#124 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
broadblues wrote:

C is not difficult to learn.

It's difficult to master.

Quote:
broadblues wrote:

Whichever language you choose you need to learn to code, which is not difficult

It's not so easy to learn how to code well.

Quote:
KimmoK wrote:

For example ... someone could say that C# coded applications on windows are not real applications as they are not compiled to native binary but rather executed a bit like scripts by .NET engine.

They're not. They're compiled to MSIL (a byte code). MSIL is compiled to native code at run time.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 8:44:33
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

@KimmoK

Quote:

GUI on top of a script might not seem no different to user than any other "application".

So, IMO, script languages are perfectly ok for smaller "apps". But for good larger apps some real programming language and native builds might be the better way.


If you want a good example, AmiPodder is written in ARexx. You wouldn't know from using it.

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Deniil715 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 9:07:03
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4209
From: Sweden

@Tommy

Quote:

Would it not be possible to have some sort of full memory protection that is optional? Or at least full for modern applications that have been coded to take advantage of it?? I personally would not mind losing backwards compatibility if the feature can be switched on/off when you need to use those old applications.


+1 on that! How else could developers develop programs correctly (using MEMF_PRIVATE etc. correctly) if we cannot test it with full/better MP on??!

@Signal

A developer is someone who develops, so of course anyone using Python or BASIC is a developer (unless just poking a minor change in something existing maybe...).

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whose 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 9:20:39
#127 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@Deniil715

Quote:
How else could developers develop programs correctly (using MEMF_PRIVATE etc. correctly) if we cannot test it with full/better MP on??!


Test it with the partial MP, as it is good enough for this. If your program crashes, its faulty

Seriously, youre way too deep into "full MP". It doesnt protect from all cases of memory misusage, as all the news about Win/Lin (screensavers) security holes show. "Full MP" leads to sloppy development, btw. (take a look into several open source code with hundreds of potential pitfalls, memory holes, unintended breaks etc. and wonder, how this could happen)

Im satisfied the way it works now. Its a bit more work for me to "audit" my code for potential memory holes etc., but it forces me to develop with accuracy in mind.

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Vistaus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 9:57:05
#128 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

@broadblues

C is difficult to master, which is why something like Python is a better choice. Hollywood is commercial and costs money to buy from their website. ARexx is not a bad choice, but *simple* devs coming from other platforms might be more familiar with a more standardized language like Python (or whatever other easy-to-learn language), which'll also make porting easier.

Last edited by Vistaus on 02-May-2014 at 09:58 AM.

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

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sinisrus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 10:47:11
#129 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Dec-2006
Posts: 76
From: Unknown

@Vistaus and @all

I work to IDE for Arexx And RXmui for amigaos4.x an amigaos3.9.
for writing your script Arexx and RxMUI very fast!!!

This IDE is writing with rxmui named "BuildOther" (see link):

http://amitheme.amiga-ng.org/amiga/Grab01.png
http://amitheme.amiga-ng.org/amiga/Grab02.png

Is free and release for 2014...




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scabit 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 11:54:40
#130 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2005
Posts: 1667
From: Satellite Beach, FL USA

@sinisrus

Quote:
This IDE is writing with rxmui named "BuildOther" (see link):


Nice!

Scott

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 12:30:45
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5202
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@whose

"Full MP" leads to sloppy development"

Perhaps that's why I all the time have applications crashing on Linux and on Windows7.
Very unreliable apps everywhere!

(but Win7 and Linux rarely crashes to their knees ... even though they are often more troublesome to revive than just ctrl+Amiga+Amiga.)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 13:43:55
#132 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Vistaus

Quote:

C is difficult to master, which is why something like Python is a better choice.


I don't agree about the simplicity of python or the complexity of C but I don't deny that python can be used to create simple applications. It's hordes for courses really. I'm planning on writing a tutorail on writing a small aplliction with Python and ProAction, GUI front end to Ghostscript for PS to PDF conversion. Basically a rewrite of this http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/script/pdfmaker.lha . Can't promise any time schedule on that thoughas I'm maxed out on other coding projects.

Quote:

Hollywood is commercial and costs money to buy from their website. ARexx is not a bad choice, but *simple* devs coming from other platforms might be more familiar with a more standardized language like Python (or whatever other easy-to-learn language), which'll also make porting easier.


What useful app or utility will "simple" devs produce?

Do you develope your self? If so stop making excuses, start coding and ask question when you encounter problems.

Last edited by broadblues on 02-May-2014 at 01:46 PM.
Last edited by broadblues on 02-May-2014 at 01:45 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 13:48:46
#133 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@sinisrus

Looks cool. rxMUI is another option but unless I'm mistaken there is no native version? That means slower scripts and less support for the latest features. But still better than nothing.




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sinisrus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 13:59:32
#134 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Dec-2006
Posts: 76
From: Unknown

@broadblues

it is sufficient fast to create

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itix 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 13:59:35
#135 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@whose

Quote:

Test it with the partial MP, as it is good enough for this. If your program crashes, its faulty


It is not good enough. If it does not crash on your machine it is not guarantee it wont crash on another machine. You dont necessarily run to all test conditions.

even if your software was tested with full memory protection it is not guarantee it will work right in every condition.

With tools like Valgrind or Wipeout you can catch errors you could not find with full nor partial memory protection. But proper memory protection prevents keeps your system running so you can inspect error reported from Valgrind.

Quote:

"Full MP" leads to sloppy development, btw. (take a look into several open source code with hundreds of potential pitfalls, memory holes, unintended breaks etc. and wonder, how this could happen)


Memory protection is not mean to help developer (on some systems you dont even get any meaningful error message). It is meant to protect end user systems from faults in the software.

Quote:

Im satisfied the way it works now. Its a bit more work for me to "audit" my code for potential memory holes etc., but it forces me to develop with accuracy in mind.


All developers review their code on all systems before trying to execute it first time. In systems with better protection it does save time when your code is not crashing on every new function each time.

And I think most developers do review their code a little before first execution. My colleagues didnt start coding on Amiga but they dont have to use debugger much. It just works on first try.

Last edited by itix on 02-May-2014 at 02:10 PM.
Last edited by itix on 02-May-2014 at 02:04 PM.
Last edited by itix on 02-May-2014 at 02:03 PM.
Last edited by itix on 02-May-2014 at 02:02 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 2-May-2014 14:10:31
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3490
From: Russia

@broadblues
Quote:

rxMUI is another option but unless I'm mistaken there is no native version? That means slower scripts and less support for the latest features.


About year ago i write mail to Alfie , and ask him to open rxMUI, he says that "yep, i thinkg about it lately", but then nothing. I tried then write him 2 or 3 more mails about that topic, but no answer since.

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Vistaus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 3-May-2014 11:45:11
#137 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

CTRL+ALT+Backspace on Linux also works to revivie ;)

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

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Vistaus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 3-May-2014 11:49:20
#138 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

@broadblues

I've developed 2 now discontinued apps with Enyo. It's a JavaScript-based language to create cross-platform apps (that even run in the web browser). I also master HTML. And I did learn *some* Python in the past.

But I'm talking about getting more devs in general. If you want me as a dev: fine. But I think we need more devs, which is why I'm curious about how we can make it easier for simple devs to develop (and/or port) applications for AmigaOS using something (like Python or whatever) they already know.

Last edited by Vistaus on 03-May-2014 at 11:49 AM.

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

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gtmooya 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 3-May-2014 17:18:58
#139 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 285
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Thanks for the updates, would be nice to see a regular monthly round up of OS news on the Hyperion blog.

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whose 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 3-May-2014 18:25:40
#140 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@itix

It seems you missed the smily I didnt say that any MP will catch all crash conditions. But if it crashes with partial MP already, the program is definetly faulty

I also didnt say anything in the line of "MP is meant for developers". Some people here seem to be under this impression, right. But its definetly not me being under this impression.

I know that "full MP" wont do anything better for the developers, although it may keep the system up and running. Debugging output could be catched in other ways, if necessary. Full MP is useful for systems that need to run although there is faulty software in memory trying to run havoc. Its useful for systems that have to stand a demand for availability. This is, servers. But for end user systems, not using the faulty software any further until the software fault is found and cured, and a rapid reboot of the system is often the better (safer) solution. I know that this is not what most users want, as they are used to have programs with gazillions of barely reviewed functions of which the average user uses a tiny fraction only, and these programs barely crash the whole system (although sometimes they do). But on Amiga we have the chance to revert this trend. Less functions, but functions that work as expected and functions that are safe.

A code review is good, but I meant "audit". Avoid known pitfalls by checklists, intense testing by weird input and how this affects the output etc. If all developers would really do this, overall code quality would be much better. I know that there is still the need for testing, as even software developers are just humans

All those memory leaks, the need for automatic stack extensions although most problems wont require it if the code would have been developed a bit smarter, failing safety measures etc. etc. wouldnt be there if the "review" part of development would be taken as serious as you imply.

The screensaver thingie running through the news the last few days is an excellent example for this. I never expected such a big number of serious bugs in just one minor part of a "secure" system that is shown to us as the example of how to do it...

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