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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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pavlor 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 11:25:48
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

If you read my link correctly, you see some memory is "private" and some "shared". Some memory areas are protected (unlike on OS3).

Quote:
In other words it does nothing to make the OS any more reliable then it was thirty years ago.


FE seems to be pretty stable - if you have enough RAM.

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pampers 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 11:41:15
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2009
Posts: 154
From: Unknown

Quote:

KingKong wrote:

The question is: How can Amiga OS become a leading operating system?


It's so easy that I'm amazed no one came up with this idea yet - just invent some time capsule, come back to 199x and change the past.

Be real, get a life and live with it..

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Aslak3 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 11:51:08
#23 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@pavlor

Yeap, I was just reading. Thanks for the link; it was interesting. I'm assuming that memory used for task code is private then, or just its allocated memory? Still, I suspect that a user task can still stamp all over OS structures, and other tasks, since otherwise.... compatibility.

Glad you are happy with your OS4.

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pavlor 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 12:09:54
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

Quote:
I'm assuming that memory used for task code is private then, or just its allocated memory? Still, I suspect that a user task can still stamp all over OS structures, and other tasks, since otherwise.... compatibility.


I´m just ordinary user, don´t expect explanation from me. Without isolated adress spaces, every OS is prone to crash.

Quote:
Glad you are happy with your OS4.


Best AmigaOS version I ever used.

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Aslak3 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 12:55:12
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@pavlor

And the key thing here is that every OS outside of something used on a embedded platform will have isolated address spaces. Exceptions are either of historical interest (Mac OS through to version 9, AmigaOS (or AROS or MorphOS)), or are for special purposes like small embedded systems.

Anyway, that's enough from me.

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megol 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 19:27:00
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

Except for extremely primitive variants even embedded systems use memory protection nowadays.
One could even argue that the primitive/small variants are also protected in practice as they tend to do only one thing ;)

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Deniil715 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 20:27:53
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4237
From: Sweden

@Aslak3

The problem isn't that AmigaOS doesn't have VM (although it does). The problem is that it cannot be used fully due to backward compatibility, and due to that the complete PPC API hasn't been replaced by a "private" API.

You can still loop though all windows on a screen just by opening you own windows and go though the next/prev chain or peek into intuitionbase. Allowing this all over the OS structures is where the AmigaOS MP fails. Anyone can (still) do this by mistake and crash the entire OS in a blink.

However, code is execute protected. Cannot be read or written, only executed. Self-modifying code doesn't work.
Static data, such as 'char *str="Hello world!";" str[5]=0;' does not work anymore.
Free memory is protected, as well as zero-page.

But unfortunately, MEMF_PRIVATE is not protected, even though it is supposed to be. They said it breaks too many programs that use it incorrectly.

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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BigD 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 20:31:45
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@KingKong

Today it's all about the survival of the platform. I guess we could shoot for the first widely used OS for desktop quantum computers when they become available? Other than that Commodore died, Escom died, Phase 5 died and Hyperion fought Amiga Inc for years meaning the focus wasn't on selling to new users, Eyetech made no money selling developer boards supporting Hyperion with hardware and A-Eon/A-Cube produced machines for the classes and not the masses. AmigaOS is for people who liked AmigaOS the first time round but who have more disposable income now and don't fancy a MacPro (similar price to a X1000).

For me I've just about converted to MacOS now and it feels quite natural now. I'm not so much bothered anymore whether AmigaOS becomes mainstream again or not. I'd like it to survive but mainstream is out of the realms of possibility unless there is a major shift in technology to level the playing field i.e. a switch to quantum computing.

Sorry! Sad but true. Moral = enjoy what you got

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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Hans 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 20:44:12
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5074
From: New Zealand

@KingKong
Quote:
1. Amiga OS4 must become Open Source. That is very important because
- to get governmental money
- nonprofit and public benefit to save taxes
- to get low-priced help from programmers around the world

The open-source world is littered with dead projects that were open-sourced with the hope/belief that a team of programmers from around the world would magically appear and work on it for free. It doesn't work that way.

Hans

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bison 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 23:16:21
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Morphix

Quote:
Re written from scratch, new kernel, memory protection, focus on stability.

This would be a good idea if we were all immortal and had limitless time to work on operating systems, but we're not and we don't. By the time we got close to completion, the computing world would have moved on, and we would have to start over again.

I would start with Linux, compile it as close as I could to what I thought was an optimal configuration, and then see what needed to be changed. That would get us 99% there, with a manageable amount of work ahead of us. 99% may seem overly optimistic, but when you consider the driver support that Linux already has, I think it is reasonable.

Some things would not be perfect, but I'm willing to settle for "very good" in some areas if it means I can use the resulting system before I die.

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wawa 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 23:39:51
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
The open-source world is littered with dead projects that were open-sourced with the hope/belief that a team of programmers from around the world would magically appear and work on it for free. It doesn't work that way.


yes, but at lest their code is preserved if anyone would want to refer to it. there is enough successful projects though to put this in perspective. and keeping projects proprietary and closed source doesnt automatically make them better if there is no resources and competence behind it.

as far as it looks like today, in case of hyperions bankruptcy and liquidation the code base is likely lost and the system impossible to legally being distributed. even if it will be possible to avoid the liquidation this time, it seems to be like balancing on razors edge. everybody investing in this system financially or emotionally should consider this seriously asap.

Last edited by wawa on 15-Feb-2015 at 11:41 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 15-Feb-2015 at 11:40 PM.

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BigD 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-Feb-2015 23:59:32
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@wawa

Quote:
yes, but at lest their code is preserved if anyone would want to refer to it. there is enough successful projects though to put this in perspective. and keeping projects proprietary and closed source doesnt automatically make them better if there is no resources and competence behind it.


If any one of Hyperion/A-Eon/A-Cube/AmigaKit goes belly up and the Amiga world gets even smaller then quite frankly it would be better if the code base/hardware references and retail distribution networks were forever lost than if some open source outcome left the door open for someone to load AmigaOS Hack 5.0 onto a Raspberry Pi 3 just for nostalgia in 5 years time. It would be better if it were all just left well alone and that we continue to buy our Kickstarts and Workbench disks from Cloanto They could switch out the light when even that failed to be profitable.

An open source AmigaOS doesn't suddenly become a Linux killer!

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wawa 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 0:17:27
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@BigD

you already have your hack os, only that it is not open source. if you want amiga legacy to be left alone then be consequent at least.

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Rob 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 0:44:56
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6369
From: S.Wales

How would you open source OS4? Different components are owned by different parties.

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KingKong 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 6:45:03
#35 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@Rob
Quote:

Rob wrote:
How would you open source OS4? Different components are owned by different parties.


That is a very good question.

History of the AmigaOS 4 dispute
Rechtsstreit: Einigungsvertrag zwischen Amiga und Hyperion veröffentlicht
Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF

My thinking is that some don't want Amiga OS to become successful and that for some Amiga OS becomming Open Source is a great risk, they'd like to prevent (for instance: delay the process for years and make it as costly as possible).

Open Source is a good idea, because it will keep the chance (for Amiga OS to become a success) forever. Either one would like Amiga OS to become Open Source and says simply "yes" or one will try to prevent it.

One good reason to keep Amiga OS 4 proprietary would be, that Hyperion has all the power to make Amiga OS 4 a great success ... but look how it is.

I propose this procedure:

1. Announce in public the intent to make Amiga OS Open Source. Give an ultimatum of 1 month.

2. After the month has passed, analyse the situation. Perhaps there is still some reasoning and a chance for agreement. A public discussion is for the benefit of those with good intent.

3. Release as much Amiga OS to Open Source as (legaly) possible. With some luck a proprietary remainder will be released later (perhaps for some extra money).

4. Raise money to develop Amiga OS.

The aim must be to develop a real good operating system that can successfully challenge Microsoft. The name of the OS is not so important - so don't waste to much money on this - names can change.

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ferrels 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 7:40:42
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@KingKong

OS4 offers nothing that can or will ever compete with mainstream operating systems such as Windows or OSX. These days it's a hobby OS and no amount of drugs, beer or wishful thinking is going to change that.

And why should Hyperion release any of its IP as open source? Their income is based on their IP and you suggest they should just give all that away? That's ridiculous. You'd have better luck asking Apple to open source their iOS or just give away free iPhones to anyone who asks.

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BigD 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 7:51:00
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@KingKong

Quote:
The aim must be to develop a real good operating system that can successfully challenge Microsoft.


Seriously! So you do think AmigaOS could be the next Linux?! Does the world need another Linux? The strength of the Amiga was the custom graphics chips and the software. Commodore cippled the low end machines by not including Fast Ram and hard drives out of the box so no one outside of the Amiga community remembers the multitasking OS that we love.

By leaving the OS's development to open source programmers you basically just open the door for a x86 AROS clone with more historical code but less PowerPC or 68k compatibility, hence even less software! Like it or loathe it the current situation is the best we are likely to see. The OS and hardware platforms are owned by people who actually believe in the product and want to push it forward. However, they will not work for free and would most likely leave the platform if it went open source.

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KingKong 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 8:20:52
#38 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@ferrels
Quote:

ferrels wrote:
And why should Hyperion release any of its IP as open source?


Well, let's find somme arguments for them to release Amiga OS as open source:

- Do you want a good Amiga OS or what?
- Ubuntu is open source at it works quite fine.
- Open source improves the chance for Amiga OS considerable.
- One could make money with hardware and there's a chance to get public/governmental money.
- There is possible a considerable chance to make Amiga OS to an supersecure RTOS for military/industry and such an OS could be worth billions of Euros (i.e. these guys spend large sums of money for the development and can also pay Hyperion Entertainment). Why Amiga OS? Because it's quite small - you can improve Amiga OS to real-time and super-security but not MS Windows. Amiga OS can become the leading smartphone OS - that's just possible because Android and Microsoft kinda sucks and who would trust IOS or anything from them (USA)?

PS: "Ubuntu ... is a Nguni Bantu term roughly translating to "human kindness." It is an idea from the Southern African region which means literally "human-ness," and is often translated as "humanity toward others," but is often used in a more philosophical sense to mean "the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity". ..." Ubuntu (philosophy)

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OldFart 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 8:36:37
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3063
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@bison

Quote:
By the time we got close to completion, the computing world would have moved on, and we would have to start over again.
Sounds pretty much like the paradoxof the Tortoise and the Hare.

But hen again, the later you start, the greater the distance to recover. So either we start immediately or not at all, meaning to drop the entire project.

OldFart

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michalsc 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 16-Feb-2015 9:42:12
#40 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 381
From: Germany

@KingKong

Quote:
- Ubuntu is open source at it works quite fine.


Pointless argument since even the community of the least popular linux distribution is probably much larger than the whole amiga community at all.

Quote:
- Open source improves the chance for Amiga OS considerable.


Not really. It just secures that the source won't get lost when the company developing it disappears.

Quote:
- One could make money with hardware and there's a chance to get public/governmental money.


What for? There is a lot of cheap and open hardware out there. And what government money?

Quote:
- There is possible a considerable chance to make Amiga OS to an supersecure RTOS for military/industry


Regarding stability and security AmigaOS is very far from military/industry standards. Making it an open source OS developed by hobbits wouldn't make it better. RTOS? No, AmigaOS is not RTOS and probably would be hard to make it one.

Quote:
Why Amiga OS? Because it's quite small


There are many small operating systems suited for RTOS/embedded much better than AmigaOS. They are already available and proven to be stable and secure. There is no need to even look in the direction of AmigaOS.

Quote:
you can improve Amiga OS to real-time and super-security but not MS Windows


You (or developers) can't even provide proper memory protection and SMP, yet you're telling us that one can make AmigaOS into super-secure RTOS? come on...

Quote:
Amiga OS can become the leading smartphone OS


AmigaOS GUI is completely unsuited for smartphones or even for touch interfaces at all.

Quote:
that's just possible because Android and Microsoft kinda sucks


That's the best argument ever! ;)

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