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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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pavlor 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 20:03:54
#601 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9601
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Not all games used to kill the o.s.. Some use the o.s., and even its APIs to handle graphics, sprites, and audio.


Well, Hillbillylitre´s point was ALL Amiga games must be run in UAE on Amiga/OS4. As some hardware banging games work (Battle Chess, Lords), I proved he was not right.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 20:43:21
#602 ]
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Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pavlor: you're right. In fact some (a minority) were o.s.-friendly, so it's enough to emulate the 68K and the o.s. APIs and that should be OK to have them running (IF they were coded respecting Commodore's guidelines).

However I doubt that such games have banging the hardware. IMO they work because they use the o.s. APIs, as I stated before.

Hardware banging and JITers like Petunia or Trance aren't usually compatible each other. Tracking direct hardware access is very expensive (unless for trivial stuff: using the absolute address mode), and can kill the performance.

Last edited by cdimauro on 17-May-2015 at 08:44 PM.
Last edited by cdimauro on 17-May-2015 at 08:44 PM.

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Hillbillylitre 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 21:17:58
#603 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2015
Posts: 270
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Well, Hillbillylitre´s point was ALL Amiga games must be run in UAE on Amiga/OS4. As some hardware banging games work (Battle Chess, Lords), I proved he was not right.

I didn't write All games, I wrote Amiga games. It only makes sense that some games works because one can at least use the AGA screen modes.

Can you install and use WHDLoad together with all the Amiga friendly games (not talking about OS4 friendly games), or do you have to use RuninUAE?

Last edited by Hillbillylitre on 17-May-2015 at 09:20 PM.

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Rob 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 21:25:42
#604 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6361
From: S.Wales

@Hillbillylitre

Quote:
I didn't write All games, I wrote Amiga games


Actually, you said that you had to emulate the Amiga computer. You didn't specify any conditions.

Quote:
Can you install and use WHDLoad together with all the Amiga friendly games (not talking about OS4 friendly games), or do you have to use RuninUAE?


WHDLoad turns off the OS when it launches games so it's game over for the emulated 68k CPU.

Last edited by Rob on 17-May-2015 at 09:28 PM.

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Hillbillylitre 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 21:45:49
#605 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2015
Posts: 270
From: Unknown

@Rob

AmigaOS4 seems very Amiga unfrendly because my Amiga have no problem with that. I reckon arteffect, imagefx, photogenics, tornado3d, adpro, real3d, dpaint and all that need to be emulated on an Amiga computer too when running OS4. So my conclusion is that Amiga OS4 is completely useless on an Amiga computer.

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 22:28:55
#606 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

AmigaOS4 seems very Amiga unfrendly because my Amiga have no problem with that. I reckon arteffect, imagefx, photogenics, tornado3d, adpro, real3d, dpaint and all that need to be emulated on an Amiga computer too when running OS4. So my conclusion is that Amiga OS4 is completely useless on an Amiga computer.

And my conclusion is that most games are badly written and directly hit the hardware: no surprise most don't work on modern hardware/OS. If Commodore was serious about OS/apps, developers would have been forced to code clean using OS methods and do not hit bare metal.
Problem is that using the OS was usually too slow... so seeing it took CBM 7 years to update the hardware, it's not surprising they had to bypass the OS :)

Last edited by Leo on 17-May-2015 at 10:30 PM.

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BigD 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 22:56:59
#607 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7333
From: UK

@Leo

Quote:
Problem is that using the OS was usually too slow... so seeing it took CBM 7 years to update the hardware, it's not surprising they had to bypass the OS :)


I remember Sim City 2000 AGA got slated for being too slow when it was reviewed. It was OS friendly and the main problem was people weren't prepared to play it on 040 or 060 hardware. Saying that I found it reasonably playable on a 030/50.

Banging the metal directly and assembly coding were the ONLY ways game developers could get the best out of the custom Amiga hardware we loved. Napalm is a direct testament to that as was Alien Breed 3D. Commodore didn't help push the Amiga hardware at all. Heck they even delayed Deluxe Paint being updated because they took an age (i.e. not before the bankruptcy) to incorporate RTG functionality into the OS.

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BCP 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 17-May-2015 23:58:47
#608 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 184
From: Indianapolis, IN USA

@BigD

As an "Earlybird" AmigaOne XE-g3 owner & now a "First Contact" X1000 owner, the X1000 with OS4.1 update 5 was a much more polished system & consumer ready system then the XE with OS4.0 was when it was first released for "Earlybird" owners. The X1000 is suitably mature in that all of the hardware features that are currently supported function well & are stable. More Amiga OS4 native programs would be nice though. It appears that that is slowly being addressed by Aeon/AmigaKit & others. As a consumer type user I'm very pleased with the X1000.

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BigD 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 0:15:09
#609 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7333
From: UK

@BCP

Great! Good to hear but the lack of OS4 native programs (I know A-EON are addressing this) and lack of support in the OS for ALL of the hardware features 3 years on from release (I know Hyperion is addressing this) is a real problem when the cost is over £2,000. As a major hardware advantage over the Sam range the fact that the CPU is dual core but the OS does not support the extra core is IMHO equivalent to the A1200 not being able to utilise the trapdoor expansion port for the first 3 years of release! It's not ideal however we look at it.

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olegil 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 0:24:15
#610 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@cdimauro

You keep mixing CPU with motherboard in your posts. CPUs typically don't have on-chip wifi, this is always handled by extra parts. CPU family doesn't really affect the availability of wifi.

Obviously a laptop needs wifi, but it also needs gigabit ethernet to be taken seriously by me (two would suit me better).

_________________
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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 0:42:28
#611 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:
remember Sim City 2000 AGA got slated for being too slow when it was reviewed. It was OS friendly and the main problem was people weren't prepared to play it on 040 or 060 hardware. Saying that I found it reasonably playable on a 030/50

You mean Aga was unusable in 648x480x8bit ?
Cause that's the case: a 030 won't change it. I remember some adventure game being cancelled because it was too slow too. Was it king's quest 6 aga ? I don't remember..

Last edited by Leo on 18-May-2015 at 12:44 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 18-May-2015 at 12:43 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 18-May-2015 at 12:42 AM.

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 0:57:08
#612 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@agami

Quote:
1. Unfortunately you have this backwards. The laws of physics and economics also apply to operating systems, so if it is going to do a lot of user friendly and magic things it's going to be large and complicated, at least initially. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Doing magic things is not one of my requirements. Nor is doing a lot of user friendly things, although *some* user friendly things have to be done, such as providing GUI configuration utilities and auto-mount for removable media. But I don't think this would make things overly complicated, based on what has been done in these areas on other systems.

I went back over my list, such as it is, and I don't see that I mention anything about free lunches. Please try to be more original; these hackneyed metaphors are tiresome!

Quote:
2. It doesn't need to be open source. What it does need to be is open and transparent; Well documented and have accessible development tools. Developers and tinkerers should be able to "open the hood" and fix things, but that can be done without having access to the source.

No source code is a non-starter. I admit to being cynical (although I am not a cynic per se), and I simply do not trust software without source code, human nature being what it is. People will almost always act in their own best interest, and that's often times not the same as yours or mine. I don't think non-free software is morally wrong, as RMS does, I just think that it's inadvisable, especially close to the hardware.

Being well documented is necessary but not sufficient. One can't actually verify if a program is well documented without the source code.

As for your points 3, 4, and 5, I will have to give them some thought...

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BigD 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 1:34:55
#613 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7333
From: UK

@Leo

Quote:
You mean Aga was unusable in 648x480x8bit ? Cause that's the case: a 030 won't change it. I remember some adventure game being cancelled because it was too slow too. Was it king's quest 6 aga ? I don't remember..


Not sure you're recognising the facts contained within what I'm saying. Magazines DID slate SimCity 2000 for being too slow on anything other than a 040 or 060 CPU. And in my experience it plays adequately in AGA High Res Laced on a 030/50 and plays great in High Res Laced on a 060 so YES a fast CPU DOES make a difference in my experience.

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 1:40:57
#614 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@agami

Quote:
There is of course 3, and 4 and 5.

The operating system should be extensible and have rich APIs. This is somewhat an extension of 2.

The operating system should be able to adapt to different classes of hardware without compromising the UX paradigms.

The operating system should be able to adapt to different people's work styles and offer multiple ways to complete the same tasks. And I'm not just talking about CLI and GUI.

The operating system should fit well into the existing ecosystem of computing devices and peripherals. And it should enhance the experience when present in the ecosystem.

I don't see how a new system based on these design criteria would be much different from what is already available with Windows, OS X, or Unbuntu.

I am especially skeptical of "the existing ecosystem of computing devices." Consider Ubuntu and how well this has been working for them.

Quote:
Taking AmigaOS 4.x and creating an operating system that does these things is not only possible, but it is highly suited to the task. Of course, there is a lot of work to do to get it there, but it would actually be harder with Linux/BSD, Morphos, AROS, and Haiku.

Swap AmigaOS and Linux/BSD you have a more accurate dichotomy. Linux and BSD are way ahead of AmigaOS, Morphos, AROS, and Haiku in terms of development.

Quote:
Most people look at AmigaOS 4.x lacking multicore/SMP, virtual/protected memory, security framework, etc. as major hurdles. In the scheme of things these are minor hurdles as there is no lack of examples on how to do this. Give it some skills and money and it can be done. The other stuff is a hurdle for all other systems because of the legacy they are dealing with in their OS code.

Most people are right -- these are all major hurdles!

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agami 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 5:10:51
#615 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@bison

Quote:
I don't see how a new system based on these design criteria would be much different from what is already available with Windows, OS X, or Unbuntu

The only API in Windows I would consider as 'rich' is DirectX. I find development for Windows way too cumbersome and creating integration points with the OS highly convoluted. OS X is a bit better in the way where they have many well defined APIs but the feature set within each is tightly controlled. And Linux is too much a of a moving target. Most of the legacy stuff in there is just awful, and the cool new things being developed are suffering from it being open source.

Quote:
I am especially skeptical of "the existing ecosystem of computing devices." Consider Ubuntu and how well this has been working for them.

Execution is everything.

Quote:
Linux and BSD are way ahead of AmigaOS...

For contemporary computing needs, yes.
But to create a leading OS, AmigaOS has better underpinnings to achieve this in a more elegant way than the other operating systems.

Quote:
Most people are right -- these are all major hurdles!

They are only major hurdles because of resource constraints. But if you had the millions required to hire the right team, they would solve those issues much quicker than implementing the forward thinking stuff.

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agami 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 5:19:04
#616 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@bison

Quote:
Doing magic things is not one of my requirements.

It may not be your requirement, but if it's going to be a leading operating system, the technological advancements should be indistinguishable from magic.

Quote:
No source code is a non-starter.

A mixture of open and closed source would eventually deliver a return on investment, but to be a leading OS it would first be completely closed. It would require to change some computing paradigms to start with. It will need to wow the developer with a 'rails-like' framework. Once there is sufficient momentum, certain aspects can be made open source without the risk of people reverting to bad habits.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 5:42:31
#617 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

AmigaOS4 seems very Amiga unfrendly because my Amiga have no problem with that. I reckon arteffect, imagefx, photogenics, tornado3d, adpro, real3d, dpaint and all that need to be emulated on an Amiga computer too when running OS4. So my conclusion is that Amiga OS4 is completely useless on an Amiga computer.

And my conclusion is that most games are badly written and directly hit the hardware: no surprise most don't work on modern hardware/OS.

Games weren't badly written because they directly hit the hardware, but because they haven't (stricly) followed Commodore's guidelines for direct-hardware programming.

My games hit the hardware, and I also used self-modifying code. But I followed all guidelines, so I was safe and "legal". Except for a single point: I used the interrupt table space for putting some data there. I couldn't imagine that Motorola decided to remove some USER MODE instructions (with the 68060), but fortunately I didn't use them, so I was safe...
Quote:
If Commodore was serious about OS/apps, developers would have been forced to code clean using OS methods and do not hit bare metal.
Problem is that using the OS was usually too slow... so seeing it took CBM 7 years to update the hardware, it's not surprising they had to bypass the OS :)

Exactly. I cannot imagine my games written using only o.s. APIs: they simple wouldn't be existed.

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agami 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 5:44:45
#618 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@megol

Quote:
AFAIK there are no research that points to this being true. There are a lot of systems that are considered user friendly _but_ user friendly doesn't mean fully intuitive! Just as one have to learn driving a car or using the TV remote one have to learn the user interface.

The world is replete with examples of this.
In order for AmigaOS to become a leading OS it would not place demands on the user to learn new ways of doing things, i.e. The OS will adapt to the user. That is the essence of user friendliness and to pull that off one needs lots of complicated routines.

Quote:
Really? Rich APIs? Just use some of those that are already available.

I never implied that all of them would need to be developed from scratch. But in order for AmigaOS to be a leading OS it would need these.

UX stands for User Experience.

Quote:
Do you work in PR?

I do have a degree in marketing. Not sure why you're asking.

Quote:
And here you show yourself completely clueless. AOS 4 isn't better suited than many other existing solutions, in fact it is extremely ill-suited in any measurable category.
The only thing it got is nostalgia - and that is mostly make believe as all important subsystems are rewritten/heavily changed.

First, I never talk about things I'm not fully clued into.
Second, whilst many parts of the OS have been rewritten, they haven't been heavily changed.
Third, think of it as first semester in acting class. The first thing the instructors will do is have you un-learn anything you think you may have learned about acting. And once stripped of allusions the instructor can start to teach acting.

The other operating systems are too far down the wrong path. If you ask people who have worked on an OS for the past 10-15 years if they would have done things differently if they knew what they knew now, the answer will overwhelmingly be yes. But the AmigaOS is exactly at the point where you would start to "teach it acting". That is only one of the reasons it is more suitable.

Quote:
You just don't get it. "Minor hurdles"? I guess you routinely solve the halting problem too?

It's my specialty.
In order for AmigaOS to be a leading OS it requires leading features. In most cases this would mean features the other operating systems don't posses. They haven't even started to think of what those are as they have no pressure to do so. It's like Windows Mobile OS; It was moving along slowly and then BOOM! Apple comes out with the iPhone and a completely new smartphone UX. And it took Google, Blackberry (RIM), and Microsoft several years just to catch up.

That new UX is harder to do than implement something that has been implemented all over the place. So yeah, in the scheme of things those are minor hurdles.

Last edited by agami on 18-May-2015 at 05:47 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 5:48:28
#619 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@cdimauro

You keep mixing CPU with motherboard in your posts. CPUs typically don't have on-chip wifi, this is always handled by extra parts. CPU family doesn't really affect the availability of wifi.

You're right. The tendency is to integrate everything on a SoC (I mean for mobile, in general), but there are many platforms that still use external components, at least for Wi-Fi.
Quote:
Obviously a laptop needs wifi, but it also needs gigabit ethernet to be taken seriously by me (two would suit me better).

I suppose that it's for work, but usually there's a docking station attached to an USB3 port, which provides everything else (gigabit Ethernet, a couple of DVIs for additional monitors, more USB ports, etc.).

Ethernet is a rare bird for laptops.

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olegil 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 18-May-2015 6:26:20
#620 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@cdimauro

I must be getting old, as I don't want to run multiple DVIs, GbEs, USB2s and at least 2 serial ports off of a USB3. I would actually much rather prefer to have some of this crap directly on the laptop.

HOWEVER (and this is fairly important) with for example the T10x2 series, you choose what feature you want to bring out to pins. So while it CAN have 5 ports of ethernet, it can also have 2 ports of SATA and 4 ports of PCIe. It cannot, however have all of these at the same time. There's 2 RGMII and 8 serdeseseses, where 4 PCIe + 1 SATA + 2 ethernet (or alternatively 3+2+2) is doable at the same time. One PCIe would be x4, the rest x1.

And do you have any links to SoCs with built-in wifi?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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