@iggy

I had contact to several of those sort... one said AmigaOS was a huge success compared to Aros and MorphOS. Not uncommon. It makes no sense to discuss because it is religion.

@OlafS25

Quote:

I had contact to several of those sort...

Yeah, I've never gotten that sentiment from AROS developers.
But then, they have been working at this whole NG thing for longer than anyone else.

And what IS 'real Amiga OS'?
I honestly think it might be OS3.1, since everything after is third party.

Hard to believe that so many options would create such divisiveness, but you're right, there is a religious aspect to it.

@OlafS25

Quote:

Example is the senseless "custom chips" integrated in X1000, no drivers and no developers support. Parts of the hardware are not supported by drivers, to me it seems the hardware developers build something and A-eon and Hyperion tries to support it somehow instead of designing something that fits and can be supported. Normally when creating something OS and hardware devs should work together. To me a little strange.

SOCS come with specific network NICS, usb chipsets, etc. If you choose one you have to support what it provides, or increase cost by duplicating the on chip chipsets with seperate chips, which presumably use up PCI lanes (or whatever the righ word is there).

And the 'custom chips' are only senseless til someone does something cool with them and then you will all want one

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues

Quote:

And the 'custom chips' are only senseless til someone does something cool with them and then you will all want one

while i dont believe that the explanation is as simple as olaf suggests, i doubt that blindly implementing "features" just for the sake of that someone accidentally might find some use for them, is a strategy ever succesfully employed by anyone.

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote: @Spectre660 Quote: Anyway A-Eon now own DvPlayer and Tunenet. Two programs that would be affected by the FPU emulation speed. So special SPE floating point versions of these should not be a problem. There will be difficulties because the system ABI has no concept of SPEFP. But that is just another item on the todo list.

Elf's multiple section format lends itself naturally to fat binaries and Hyperion maintains the OS4 port of GCC, so this is not a real problem. DOS.library on a Tabor could look for a .text.spe section in the binary and load that in preference to .text, whereas DOS.library on say a SAM460 would just ignore the .text.spe section and load .text.

@jaokim

Quote:

jaokim wrote: From that it seems evident that the cheapest e500mc comes at $71, where the P1022 e500 is at $31. Looking at the chart, it seems that the P1022 is the only choice in the lower price segment, with GHz in par/slightly above the Sam460. The T1040 adds only $10 to the price, but perhaps it wasn't available at the time, plus that the cost increases with $10000 for 1000 units.

Which isn't that much.
Quote:

Perhaps it was deemed cheaper to implement the FPU-fix-thingie for OS4, and start with the hardware?

Only if you want to just emulate the FPU, because the emulator is already available.

But, as it was emerged, they are improving the support, and it may well cost more than $10000.

That's without counting the cost of splitting the OS4 platform with new PowerPC SPE support & binaries (see above itix's comment about it).


@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @iggy regarding Paul from Varisys... he has no clue about Amiga and Trevor no clue about hardware so Trevor must trust what Paul or others recommend. Example is the senseless "custom chips" integrated in X1000, no drivers and no developers support. Parts of the hardware are not supported by drivers, to me it seems the hardware developers build something and A-eon and Hyperion tries to support it somehow instead of designing something that fits and can be supported. Normally when creating something OS and hardware devs should work together. To me a little strange.

Yes, in theory. In practice we see the results of such "collaboration"...


@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: @OlafS25 And the 'custom chips' are only senseless til someone does something cool with them and then you will all want one

I doubt that all X1000 users are coders. And I doubt that all X1000 coders are interested on working on the XCore, because it can be used only for doing some automation.

The reality is that such chip was integrated only to recall the Amiga's custom chips, because OS4 users love to think that "my machine is a new Amiga", and having something which is called as "custom chip", with a "custom bus" (Xorro), serves perfectly to the selling purpose.

So, just marketing, because that chip isn't custom (and the "bus" is just a collector of the extra XCore lines put on a PCI-e connector) and is light years far away for offloading the CPU (and the o.s. too) from typical workloads, like it happened with the Amigas (where ALL coders used the custom chip either directly or through the o.s. APIs).


@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @itix Quote: itix wrote: @Spectre660 There will be difficulties because the system ABI has no concept of SPEFP. But that is just another item on the todo list. Elf's multiple section format lends itself naturally to fat binaries and Hyperion maintains the OS4 port of GCC, so this is not a real problem. DOS.library on a Tabor could look for a .text.spe section in the binary and load that in preference to .text, whereas DOS.library on say a SAM460 would just ignore the .text.spe section and load .text.

That can only solve the problem of having duplicated code both for regular PowerPC and PowerPC/SPE, but doesn't solve the ABI problem which itix exposed.

@OnlyMe

+1

I have had several Amiga's over the years and would like to have a play again, but the entry price is too high. I would want to use my machine online too, so it would also need a working browser. I don't know what the current level of browsers is but the latest time I had a machine it wasn't good (5-6 years ago).

I would come back and buy hardware and software to use in my leisure time but it needs to stack up.

@broadblues

exactamundo. I've been advocating stripping it down to bare essentials here for a LONG time. Use what's on chip fully, rather than adding a lot of extras.

But it's not always that simple, so my current favourite solution would be T1022 + SB850. Drivers already exist for SB600, but getting those extra PCIe ports would be worth an update, I think.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@jaokim

Quote:

jaokim wrote: @iggy Interesting! Quote: I doubt the difference between the e500v2 and the e500mc was of much significance. In lack of better things to do (or wait, I do have better things to do...) Anyhow, I looked at FreeScale's QoriQ pages, and found this chart: http://www.freescale.com/products/power-architecture-processors/qoriq-power-architecture-processors:QORIQ-POWER-ARCHITECTURE?cof=0&am=0 From that it seems evident that the cheapest e500mc comes at $71, where the P1022 e500 is at $31. Looking at the chart, it seems that the P1022 is the only choice in the lower price segment, with GHz in par/slightly above the Sam460. The T1040 adds only $10 to the price, but perhaps it wasn't available at the time, plus that the cost increases with $10000 for 1000 units. Perhaps it was deemed cheaper to implement the FPU-fix-thingie for OS4, and start with the hardware? Anyhoe. Need more popcorn.

The price for P1022 is in the range $30.13-$57.92. As they have chosen dual core, 1200 MHz and DDR3 the price should be close to $57.92.

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: That can only solve the problem of having duplicated code both for regular PowerPC and PowerPC/SPE, but doesn't solve the ABI problem which itix exposed.

Sure it does. An ABI is just a convention - these parameters are passed in registers, that register holds the stack frame, this is what C++ vtables look like. There's no reason why one text segment could not have a different ABI to another one, as long as you don't mix and match. And even if you do, since SPE opcodes are emulated, the only penalty is that the code will run slower.

@CodeSmith

The problem is SPEFP is still not compatible with the system ABI (calls you make to exec.librray etc). When passing floats (like to snprintf() kind of vararg calls) you have to deal with SPEFP/FPU mappings.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@duga

You forgot to finish your train of thought. T1022 at 1200MHz is $15 CHEAPER than P1022 at 1200MHz, so this would have REDUCED the cost of that production run by $15000. Hence the ONLY logical explanation can be "we cannot justify delaying this any longer".

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @duga You forgot to finish your train of thought. T1022 at 1200MHz is $15 CHEAPER than P1022 at 1200MHz, so this would have REDUCED the cost of that production run by $15000. Hence the ONLY logical explanation can be "we cannot justify delaying this any longer".

Except the fact that T1022 isn't included in the list Jaokim linked to.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/idUS93602+10-Oct-2012+BW20121010

Quote:

Freescale plans to offer samples of the T1040 device in the third quarter of 2013, with other T1 and T2 devices following soon after. World-class RTOS and/or development tools support is planned from Enea, Green Hills Software, Mentor Graphics, Wind River and others. Freescale intends to offer development tools, including a Linux® BSP, a reference design board, a multiservice router reference design, security appliance reference design, CodeWarrior debug tools, configuration tools, models and more. For more information, visit freescale.com/QorIQ.

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Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@duga

Yes it is. It's a variant of T1042, listed with minimum price $43@1k. Third entry from the bottom. If you limit the view to only two cores and speed to 1200MHz and expand both T1042 and P1022 you'll see them. And here I made a mistake, it's $10 cheaper, not $15.

P1022NSN2MHB vs T1022NSE7MQB

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Spectre660

Any chance of a context as to why we're reading a quote from 2012?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Found it, thanks.

@olegil

Trying to establish when the T1022 would have been available from .

Quote:

olegil wrote: @Spectre660 Any chance of a context as to why we're reading a quote from 2012?

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@Flasheart

Quote:

I have had several Amiga's over the years and would like to have a play again, but the entry price is too high. I would want to use my machine online too, so it would also need a working browser. I don't know what the current level of browsers is but the latest time I had a machine it wasn't good (5-6 years ago).

The current browser (Odyssey) is good. Works with facebook, google maps, youtube, paypal, pretty much all online stores I've come a cross, online banking (if it doesn't use stinking java applets).

Few limitations, especially since Flash is on its way out from the web in favor of HTML5 Very few places use java, typically a few banks.

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- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@wawa

Soc integration helps eliminate the additional chips and added board complexity that results when features are implemented discreetly.

Its given us things like built-in NICs, USB, Serial and Parallel ports, etc.

The features aren't added 'blindly', but rather are chosen as being those most commonly needed.