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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 7:30:39
#761 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
cutting the costs


MPC8610 based board would be in price league of SAM460 (or even higher as this SoC is now 2-3x more expensive than 460EX), so your quess may be right.

Quote:
Another reason might be that it could have been a contender for the upcoming e5500-based system...


As I wrote, price of both MPC8610 and P5020 are too close... but you can´t expect similar performance.


Edit: Important to note, I don´t think ACube had enough money to buy 1000 boards and then sit on them for 2+ years. This looks like A-Eon move.

Last edited by pavlor on 25-Oct-2015 at 07:32 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 7:37:45
#762 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2210
From: Unknown

@pavlor

But how much of the end price is due to the used SoC and how much is due to adding more stuff to the mobo ?

Back in 2006 Genesi was also planning something along the 8610 (not 100% sure about the number) as a followup to the Efika5200.

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 7:47:40
#763 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
But how much of the end price is due to the used SoC and how much is due to adding more stuff to the mobo ?


Hard to say, biggest part of cost of our boards were NRE costs. With high oder (1000 in this case), it makes sense to use lowest-priced SoC with all needed features (SATA, PCIe, audio, USB,...). MPC8610 lacks USB and SATA (not a problem with PCI/PCIe).

Quote:
Back in 2006 Genesi was also planning something along the 8610 (not 100% sure about the number) as a followup to the Efika5200.


They had several projects: one with G5, one with 8640/8641D, one with 8610 and one with 5121e. Then they leaved PowerPC market for ARM, but sometimes gave announcement about these projects on their blog (last time in 2009, I think).

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cdimauro 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 8:07:40
#764 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Another reason might be that it could have been a contender for the upcoming e5500-based system...


As I wrote, price of both MPC8610 and P5020 are too close... but you can´t expect similar performance.

I haven't talked about similar performance. The two (micro)architectures are very different.

The e5500 has the advantage of:
- higher clock;
- better memory subsystem;
- better peripherals "bus".

The G4 has the advantage of:
- more instructions decoded/executed per clock cycle;
- Altivec.

So, it strictly depends on the particular code.
Quote:
Edit: Important to note, I don´t think ACube had enough money to buy 1000 boards and then sit on them for 2+ years. This looks like A-Eon move.

I think so.

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Tuxedo 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 8:21:52
#765 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2324
From: Perugia, ITALY

@all speculating

Mmm....I think ACube guys wasnt so crazy to choose alone such weird SoC imho...
I think(speculating myself) better than years ago(a out 2/3) they've had some meeting and choose that SoC since was the best low price multicore choice to made low cost board that have more than one CPU to support the os4 multicore future...


Last edited by Tuxedo on 25-Oct-2015 at 08:22 AM.

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Leo 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 8:46:46
#766 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

Did they really choose the hardware for OS4 ? I was under the impression that ACube's hardware was targeted at the embbed market and having OS4 on it was just a gift to the community...

If it's targeted at the Amiga, why choosing a CPU that requires so much work for OS4 to run in it ? Their boards also had lots of stuff useless in Amiga world: several serial port,..

OS4 is already late: we have yet to see more than words about os 4.2: I'm not sure spending time to add support for a processor that's going to be used on a single product is a good idea..

Choosing this CPU for a motherboard aimed at the Amiga "market" makes no sense to me.

Last edited by Leo on 25-Oct-2015 at 08:49 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 9:07:51
#767 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
Choosing this CPU for a motherboard aimed at the Amiga "market" makes no sense to me.


Yet, nobody other than Amiga users would buy such board. Looking at features (PCIe for GFX, 2x SATA etc.) it is clearly aimed at our market.

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Tuxedo 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 9:23:02
#768 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2324
From: Perugia, ITALY

@Leo

Honestly I think like pavlor that Tabor was aimed at least also for AmigaOS4.x not only for embedded market...
However Lets see how board will perform when AmigaOS will be released...

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ExiE 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 9:51:41
#769 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 450
From: Czech Amiga News

@pavlor

Quote:
Yet, nobody other than Amiga users would buy such board. Looking at features (PCIe for GFX, 2x SATA etc.) it is clearly aimed at our market.

Riddle me this: Who is gonna buy this mobo/computer.

Amigans who not jumped to next gen Amiga yet? I guess not, Tabor is not cheap enough, with lots of potential problems...
Sam's owners? These boards are not dying fast enough yet.
Old AmigaOne users? Maybe but i guess they are not enough...
So who?

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 9:57:03
#770 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@ExiE

Quote:
Tabor is not cheap enough


You know its price?

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Rob 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 10:13:25
#771 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5929
From: S.Wales

@ExiE

How much is it? Please share the details, or are you not allowed.

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itix 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 10:39:08
#772 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

Quote:

Looking at features (PCIe for GFX, 2x SATA etc.) it is clearly aimed at our market.


It could be at OS4 market but those are valid specs for embedded market, too. If there is any embedded market for PPC, that is.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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ExiE 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 10:41:09
#773 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 450
From: Czech Amiga News

@pavlor

my bad, ignore the price part and answer me anyway... I am still interested to hear it...

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wawa 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 10:53:36
#774 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote:
@iggy

Quote:
Yes the design work necessary to change the cpu on this board could have been started almost two years ago.

But what if production was close when that decision needed to be made?


Then someone has been sitting on a lot of boards for a long time, obviously. Which isn't good business, meaning someone would be very unhappy right now with whoever is responsible for those boards not being able to be sold.


We know that this board has been around for quite some time, but hasn't actually entered the market. The following is speculation, and should be treated as such: The board also would appear to be an ACube design --- it has their trademark Lattice FPGA, it doesn't have a Xorro slot, and it's an entry-level design, which is the market segment which, according to the ACube/A-Eon cooperation should be served by ACube. So how come it's now being marketed as an A-Eon product?
It also feels, to me at least, as if in recent years, ACube and Hyperion haven't exactly been the best of buddies.
So, let's say ACube designed Tabor a few years ago, having contacted Hyperion about OS4 support and having been told "sure, shouldn't be a problem. Usual conditions" by Hyperion (non-technical) management. ACube then enters the component procurement stage, committing to building 1,000 of these lovely low-cost multi-core boards to complement A-Eon's high-end X1000 which is also nearing production. They also ship a prototype to Hyperion, who passes it on to their technical contractors, who promptly respond "Are you crazy? That thing is *nothing* like the PowerPCs OS4 is running on. This is going to take a lot of time, which means a lot of money. Oh, and BTW, that X1000 work is taking longer than expected". At this point Hyperion commercial management decides to focus their limited resources on the already-announced prestige board, and tells ACube "sorry, we spoke too soon. Can't help you with OS4. Good luck selling your boards to the linux/PPC market." There might even have been a bit of a chuckle along the lines of "That will teach them to think twice before doing things like project Moana".

Fast-forward a couple of years, and ACube is still stuck with a whole lot of useless-without-Hyperion-cooperation inventory, and no way, short of throwing a lot of good money after bad, to obtain such cooperation. On the other hand, A-Eon's principal(s) have (financial) leverage over Hyperion, or at least believe they do. So they offer to buy the Tabor design and inventory from ACube, allowing them to recover a part of their investment.

Of course, that leaves A-Eon even more dependent on Hyperion, and given that they are already getting antsy about not being able to ship their X5000 stock because OS4 support is taking its sweet time, Costel's rather pointed statement that OS4 is not running on Tabor yet might well be seen as a not-so-subtle reminder that, while A-Eon might have Hyperion by the short and curlies, the reverse is also true....
(end of speculation. This here just as a reminder that the above is, indeed, pure speculation and not based on any non-public knowledge)


very long story that explains nothing. if these boards were old stock by acube, bought by aeon, why would they carry aeon logo. also as i understand trevor said the production run has just been commissioned. acube has always been doing small production runs, they are not likely to be able and stupid enough to finance and produce stock of boards to be sitting in the storage for years. sorry it doesnt hold water in so many aspects.

Last edited by wawa on 25-Oct-2015 at 10:55 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 10:57:53
#775 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3800
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Some times things get stuck.

Quote:
His addition to our Core Linux team has already paid dividends as his contribution helped Darren Stevens solve a
tricky RadeonHD issue that was bugging us for quite a while.



Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@iggy

Quote:
BTW - Is anyone aware of how long Tabor has been available to developers?


In his posts on Freescale forums, Christian Zigotzky states he has P1022 board since late 2014. As with Nemo and Cyrus, A-Eon wants Linux first (to see if all features work), OS4 port next. Hardware developement should start even earlier - in 2013 I would assume.

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 11:10:19
#776 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@ExiE

Quote:
I am still interested to hear it...


Depending on price:
1. New users (like me )
2. Old SAM440/A1 G3 users

As I wrote, price will be deciding factor.

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Vistaus 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 12:18:06
#777 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

2 questions about this board (I know there might not be a definitive answer for these, but I do wanna hear your thoughts):

1 You guys are talking about (valid) performance issues regarding SPE. IF AOS 4 ever gets multicore support, would the performance of Tabor be better then?
2 (this one's aimed at the testers, as they are most likely to have this info): Is Tabor aimed at being sold as a mobo-only replacement for the AmigaOne 500 or is it also aimed at selling as a complete system like my AmigaOne 500?

Last edited by Vistaus on 25-Oct-2015 at 12:19 PM.

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

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umisef 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 12:21:09
#778 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1676
From: Melbourne, Australia

@wawa

Quote:
if these boards were old stock by acube, bought by aeon, why would they carry aeon logo. also as i understand trevor said the production run has just been commissioned.


Making PCBs and loading them with components is a relatively quick and easy part of making a motherboard. Prior to that, you have to go through design and prototyping (i.e. the dreaded NRE), as well as component procurement. That procurement phase can involve very significant lead times. So there is a lot of money committed, both in NRE and in parts, long before the first production PCB is being printed, and before the first production board is ever produced.

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 12:26:49
#779 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Vistaus

Quote:
You guys are talking about (valid) performance issues regarding SPE. IF AOS 4 ever gets multicore support, would the performance of Tabor be better then?


In some applications (Blender) yes, in other (Quake) no.

FPU in e500v2 is weak even without discussed compatibility issue (benchmarks show e500 1.2 GHz is comparable to G3 600 MHz in FPU depending tasks - that is with native SPE compiled code). We don´t know performance penalty for emulated FPU instructions, but don´t expect miracles.

Quote:
2 (this one's aimed at the testers, as they are most likely to have this info):


Only A-Eon can answer this one.

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bison 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 25-Oct-2015 13:10:33
#780 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1667
From: N-Space

@ExiE

I don't think it can be answered without knowing the price -- that's the determining factor. If it's low enough they might eventually sell their stock. It it's not, then they have a real problem.

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