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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 10:50:26
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6417
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ppcamiga1
shall I republish results of JIT benchmark results comparing PPC and real world platforms + Aros X86
Small tip... PPC does not look very good |
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Overflow
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 11:00:29
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @OlafS25
You shouldnt belittle the PPC platform while you are lecturing ppcamiga1. Comes off as hypocritical. As I said in my last post, applying sane standards to evaluating cost vs performance with regards to hobby platforms is a lost cause. |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 11:09:10
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6417
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow
I do not want to belittle PPC but show that PPC today is as hobby as a FPGA based 68k hardware and there are universe between what he promotes and real world
hypocritical? I do not promote anything as competition to real world but he all the time benchmarks 68k versus PPC and uses trash language against others
Vampire is pure hobby and amiga will never be mainstream again. It is a pure hobby and retro, nothing else. No problem to me |
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WolfpackN64
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 11:55:28
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Regular Member |
Joined: 8-Oct-2016 Posts: 300
From: Unknown | | |
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| @OlafS25
That attitude isn't really bringing the platform anywhere. You can see it as a hobby if you want, but some people are more serious about it. |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:09:55
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6417
From: Unknown | | |
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| @WolfpackN64
I know that some people see more in it but I personal do not see a chance to get it there. The OS is smallest problem there in my view. But that is not why people are interested in something like Vampire. I do not think anyone buying it is expecting it becoming everyday platform. |
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WolfpackN64
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:17:13
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Joined: 8-Oct-2016 Posts: 300
From: Unknown | | |
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| @OlafS25
Not immediately, no. But never write off a platform beforehand. It's the same with architectures. Nothing is set in stone (pun intended) and everything can change in a few years time. |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:24:32
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6417
From: Unknown | | |
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| @WolfpackN64
people buying vampire certainly see it as pure hobby
people spending thousands of dollars for a new PPC system perhaps partly not but I see no chance (even in years) to get a big software base that makes it competitive to Mac, Linux or Windows |
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BigD
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:33:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7418
From: UK | | |
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| @OlafS25
Never say never. Maybe a yet unknown hardware niche will open up requiring a low overhead and efficient OS. AmigaOS could fit the bill as the base OS and given the right licensing Hyperion/A-EON could sell the updated OS into this segment assuming the buyer/hardware developer sees that the OS is still being updated and developed. This could cause an Apple type increase in interest of the desktop variant as iOS has increased interest in Mac OS X! _________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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WolfpackN64
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:46:49
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Regular Member |
Joined: 8-Oct-2016 Posts: 300
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BigD
And all Mac OS X really is is a BSD kernel in userland running on top of the Mach Kernel. There is so much that could be done with ExecSG. |
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Overflow
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 18:57:07
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
people buying vampire certainly see it as pure hobby people spending thousands of dollars for a new PPC system perhaps partly not but I see no chance (even in years) to get a big software base that makes it competitive to Mac, Linux or Windows |
This is where you keep going wrong in your assumptions. Just because someone spends xxxx dollars on a hobby, they automatically dream it becoming mainstream competative. Im sure there are some that do, just like there are some Vampire users. At best it will maintain some vendors that provide a useful service to us tinkerers. Some vendors can possibly do it fulltime, which is great.
Just cause Vampire is "only" 250 to whatever the V1200 will be vs 2-3000 dollars for a X5000, doesnt invalidate peoples choice of hobby. Ive seen you make that equation repeatedly when you try to defend your definition of hobby, and somehow you know what equates hobby for others. The desire to have the "last stab" in a discussion usually ends up with 100 page threads
Im nitpicking now tho, and Im overall greatful for your efforts for the comunity |
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pavlor
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 19:17:00
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9636
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BSzili
Quote:
Can you share the benchmark results for your unfinished HP PA-RISC 7100 100 MHz prototype? |
HP PA-RISC 7100LC 100 MHz scores 2.89-4.55 SpecInt95 (depending on cache size). 68060 100 MHz would score cca 2-3 SpecInt95 (my estimate). However, there is no (and I think never was) Commodore prototype with such main CPU. |
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pavlor
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 19:27:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9636
From: Unknown | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
That might change with a standalone device (faster, more ram and so on)
This could indeed become competition for at least Tabor
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End user price of both machines would be important factor. How much faster can be Vampire? Now, it is comparable to 150 MHz 68060 (at best) with really fast RAM. |
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OneTimer1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 20:10:38
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Super Member |
Joined: 3-Aug-2015 Posts: 1065
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ppcamiga1
Quote:
This adoom tests are good example how gunnar von boehn and his followers cheat people about performance of natami/apollo/vampire crap.
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Oh come on, I don't trust most of Gunnar's speed test either, but the Apollo Core on the Vampire2 has an integer performance like a 68060 with 80MHz and it cost less than the 68060 (if you can get it)
That's pretty good for an Amiga accelerator board and it could be excellent for a stand alone 'Minimig on Speed'
As long as it concerns old games and old 68k software it could be a nice solution for people who want to have 'real hardware'.
The PPC AOS4 systems are something complete different and they should run circles around the Apollo with native PPC software.
I don't like Gunnar calling the built in frame buffer 'SAGA' because it has no AGA compatibility at all and it is (Thanks God) not what he announced as SAGA back in the Natami days (AGA with 16/24Bit HiRes Planar GFX, high speed Copper and 3D-Blitter)
But it will transform an Amiga (or the Apollo Minimig) into a 68k machine we had wanted back in the old days when we where young and everything Amiga seemed great.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 11-Jan-2017 at 08:12 PM.
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gregthecanuck
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 20:30:19
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Cult Member |
Joined: 30-Dec-2003 Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada | | |
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| @OneTimer1
Quote:
I don't like Gunnar calling the built in frame buffer 'SAGA' because it has no AGA compatibility at all and it is (Thanks God) not what he announced as SAGA back in the Natami days (AGA with 16/24Bit HiRes Planar GFX, high speed Copper and 3D-Blitter) |
The AGA compatibility is coming. Copper as well. No dates yet but there are conversations and testing happening.
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WOSPUPOS4
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 21:09:47
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Regular Member |
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Posts: 220
From: Unknown | | |
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| @OneTimer1 Quote:
I don't like Gunnar calling the built in frame buffer 'SAGA' because it has no AGA compatibility at all and it is (Thanks God) not what he announced as SAGA back in the Natami days (AGA with 16/24Bit HiRes Planar GFX, high speed Copper and 3D-Blitter)
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Well you access the new SAGA modes in a similar way you do old AGA if you bang the hw directly. Starting with $DFFxxx
Quote:
SAGA can display a Chunky plane. The chunky plane can be displayed together with 8 planar planes or alone on its own. Description of Chunky mode: Chunky-Data-Adddress-Register: $DFF1EC (32bit) (writeonly) Planepointer address to display Defaults to ($0FB00000) Any address in on board fastmem can be displayed Chunky-Width-Register $DFF1F0 (16bit) (writeonly) Default 640 Chunky-Height-Register $DFF1F2 (16bit) (writeonly) Default 480 Chunky-GFXMode-Register $DFF1F4 (16bit) (writeonly) Default 00 Low byte: $00 = Chunky-DMA off $01 = 8bit Clut $02 = 16bit R5|G6|B5 $03 = 15bit -|R5|G5|B5 $04 = 24bit R8|G8|B8 $05 = 32bit -8|R8|G8|B8 $06 = 16bit YUV422 Y8 U8 Y8 V8 High byte: $00 = normal $01 = Double output each X-Pixel (X-doublescan) $02 = Double output each Row (Y-Doublescan) $03 = X + Y Doublescan Colorregisters $DFF400 256 ColorRegister each 32bit (writeonly) Format : -8 | R8 | G8 | B8
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BoingBear
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 21:28:00
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Regular Member |
Joined: 28-Oct-2015 Posts: 140
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow, WolfpackN64, BigD, and any other AmigaOS3.x & AmigaOS4.x users, who still think that any Amiga related project (including AmigaOS4.x itself) can ever be mainstream again, and not a hobby.
I have to come to the defense of Olaf, after the three of you attack him for writing truth and common sense in this thread. All of you who believe that anything related to the Amiga will ever be mainstream again are delusional and living in your own little fantasy land! It is NEVER, EVER going to happen!
Not unless some giant corporation, or single person with 10's of millions to spend, buys the Amiga name and puts it on something modern and mainstream, that has no real connection to what you and I know as the Amiga community today. Compared to mainstream, AmigaOS4.x is a joke, and Hyperion Entertainment has no funds or personnel to make it anything remotely close to mainstream again.
Maybe if AmigaOS4.x went Open Source, and by some strange chance a few geniuses were interested enough in it to spend the next 5 to 10 years working on putting it through a similar path that MacOS9 went through, then maybe it would gain enough new users and interest to be considered moving toward mainstream, but we all know that that isn't going to happen.
So, go on dreaming and living in your fantasy land, but don't criticize other people for expressing the truth and common sense.
END RANT: |
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WolfpackN64
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Jan-2017 22:54:25
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Regular Member |
Joined: 8-Oct-2016 Posts: 300
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BoingBear
Calm down, I'm not attacking Olaf, and if it seems like it, I certainly don't mean to.
The only thing that's bothering me is that that kind of tone comes off as defeatist. I know the Amiga in it's current form isn't in any way mainstream. But the matter of fact is projects like the Vampire, MorphOS, AROS and AmigaOS4 are being worked on, by people who or see it as a hobby or want to further the platform.
In the end, Amiga is a home computer platform, and these are meant to be used. Sure Hyperion doesn't have a lot of manpower and A-EON is doing a lot of the work. But the matter of fact is AOS4 is gaining more and more critical apps to be considered useful. Windows and Mac aren't going anywhere, being quite focused on things like personal assistants which quite frankly, I find to be useless on personal computers.
And considering MacOS 9, there is still a nice community of madman on MacOS9Lives which want to further the platform. Baby steps of course, no new hardware or anything, just supporting previously unsuported Mac's. And they've actually acheived quite a few things just for a handful of personal projects. And some of these are quite adamant about wanting OS 9 to be more useful.
I can perfectly understand everyone here has their own favorite vision of Amiga and I can respect that. What I find to be annoying is that some people would just give up and want to force people to see it as a simple hobby.
To quote one of my favorite recent movies: "Rebellions are built on hope" |
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Overflow
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 12-Jan-2017 1:10:29
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @BoingBear
Then you havent actually read my posts.
I have no illusions bout the mainstream viability of the Amiga platforms. Ive always advocated it being a hobby, and treat it as such. I often agree with Olaf when he posts, but for some reason he just cant resist picking on PPC/AOS4 whenever he points out flaws in other peoples posts.
AOS3/AROS classic (and related hardware) is no more valuable or "worthy" than any other branch of "amiga". It whatever makes computing fun for you (or you find useful).
Ive said several times; Kookytech/Dan Wood has the best attitude in the community; always open for ANY platform, and even if he might prefere one over another, he stays positive about whatever he youtubes about. Even when he points to flaws, he manages to be objective. |
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noXLar
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 12-Jan-2017 1:34:10
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Cult Member |
Joined: 8-May-2003 Posts: 736
From: Norway | | |
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| @Overflow
+1
Hallelujah!!
regarding post nr. 1030 Last edited by noXLar on 12-Jan-2017 at 01:36 AM.
_________________ nox's in the house! |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 12-Jan-2017 9:23:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6417
From: Unknown | | |
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| @pavlor
I do not say it would be faster but resources are limited for most so people might think if it is more fun to have a standalone Vampire or a Tabor board if they cannot buy both |
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