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wawa
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 0:01:44
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
cesare, honestly.. "68k fanatic", "ad hominem attack"," im forgetting your contributions", "conspiracy", "discrediting you", "my toy", .. that sounds weird.. im in no way associated with apollo team. im not going to buy it any soon, since i have no hardware for it. i have been critical about natami and gunnars attitude, im still not convinced with these isa enchancements. and im not a friend of closed source, in this current state of affairs. now i have asked you simple questions. impersonal. why have you changed your mind? i know others that did, but im asking you. |
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fishy_fis
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 3:34:06
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Joined: 29-Mar-2004 Posts: 2168
From: Australia | | |
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| Granted a 68k based amiga system isnt going to deal with modern world formats very well, but within the amiga's own little world there's some quite capable software. Even on my 40mhz '040 +32meg fast+32gig cf card I could listen to music while chatting to people online while editting graphics, running video files (I was big into video conversion to amiga friendly formats for a while) and running a macintosh emulator running photoshop. Kind of random examples, and I dont know whether I ever actually ran that particular combination of software together, but the point is I was never left wanting. It did what I wanted of it, for it, and I happily went about my business. Still do. It's not going to run latest version of Lightwave3d, or watch 4k video, but it does what I want from within an environment that sustains itself nicely.
Now, having said that, I foam at the mouth at something around the 150-200mhz '060 type performance. It'd open some new option previously unavailable to the machine. Either higher quality or smaller file sizes for video, mp3 rather than aiff/wav/etc playback for audio, faster emulation of other systems on the amiga and so on. Im not really interested in playing "me too" on a classic computer, but that sort of performance would make for a fantastic retro machine.
Oh, and sidebar, but there's a lot of software that uses a reasonable amount of space. Feeble Files is about 2.2Gig, Nightlong about 1.4gig, Napalm is a few hundred meg, Exodus2140, etc. |
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QuikSanz
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 4:30:22
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Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| @fishy_fis,
Well said! I used to think maybe 128Mb was good enough for ZorroII and 256Mb for ZorroIII but now with processors this fast maybe 2 and 4Gb. lol
Chris
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CodeSmith
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 4:38:41
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3045
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| @retro
Quote:
In theory it could be. If the FPGA is large enough and you can get the signal paths right you can fit two, four or even more cores. The problem is that amigaos doesn't support multicore, so a multicore vampyre would be in the same boat as the high end PPC systems.
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cdimauro
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 6:06:03
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Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 4127
From: Germany | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro
I really do not understand what your agenda is. Prove that you are more clever than most of us?
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It's a forum, Olaf. Do you know what a forum is made for?
I'm also a technical guy with some background on using the 68K and the Amiga, so it's quite natural for me talking about that stuff. Quote:
You do not like everything 68k related,
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That's another lie: prove it! Quote:
see any activity as waste of time.
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I evaluate pros and cons of give an opinion. Like any other. Quote:
I (and most here) are fine with it. Then why you keep posting here.
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See above. Quote:
Many here like the "old stuff" and we want better hardware with faster processor and more ram that makes it possible to develop and run better software. Not because it makes sense because everyone here for sure uses a modern system for everyday tasks, just because it is possible and we want to do it. And there are certainly a lot of people of that sort out there, retro is trendy now and a FPGA based system is different and cool. It will not win the world, not become mainstream and not beat standard hardware, we use it just because it is there. Either you understand that or not (I assume not).
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You assume too many wrong things about. You like it? Do it. Quote:
If not then just accept it and do not talk down the work of others, that really makes a bad impression and that hits back.
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Again, that's the fruit of your distorted vision, because you see attacked your favorite platform.
But before telling me something like that, you've to take a look at yourself and your attitude, with your 68K crusade and against other post-Amiga platforms.
However the most important thing is that you should accept the fact that I can express my opinion. Like anyone here.
@wawa
Quote:
wawa wrote: @cdimauro
cesare, honestly.. "68k fanatic", "ad hominem attack"," im forgetting your contributions", "conspiracy", "discrediting you", "my toy", .. that sounds weird.. im in no way associated with apollo team.
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Who said that? I said that you're a 68K fanatic, which is a totally different thing. Quote:
im not going to buy it any soon, since i have no hardware for it. i have been critical about natami and gunnars attitude, im still not convinced with these isa enchancements.
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Why aren't you convinced? Quote:
and im not a friend of closed source, in this current state of affairs.
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Because it prevents changes or ricompilation, I suppose. However it's the most common piece of software, and we have to deal with it. Quote:
now i have asked you simple questions. impersonal. why have you changed your mind? i know others that did, but im asking you.
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First you have to tell me what was changed, and prove it. Then I'll give my answer.
@Zylesea
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Zylesea wrote: @cdimauro
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cdimauro wrote: @pavlor: Amiga games don't require a lot of disk space, and even much less RAM.
Since they are mostly 2D, they don't require much processing power too. Only 3D games require it, but for Blitter-based 3D games it's the Blitter which limits much more the speed of the game, so usually a 68020 gives a good performance. Texture mapped games require much more power, but a 68040 processor and fast RAM should be capable to sustain it.
Honestly I don't know what games really require more than a 68040 and/or more than 8MB of fast RAM. |
Probably 8 MB and a 030/50 is enough for most 68k stuff, but why stay there when the exceeding specs come "for free".
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Absolutely. And if having more costs a few dollars, for me makes sense to spend money for having a better platform. Quote:
The issue about using fpga is rather that hardwarewise it's simpler than getting real 68k silicon + some old obsure RAM chips. Pop is some fpga and some cheap current ram chip and just use it. And while having the resources on your board anyway it'll be a given that you aim to get the maximum out of it. Additional speed and RAM will not hurt.
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Adding RAM should be easy, but gaining more speed requires work, which can delay a lot the product release.
That's way I suggested from very long time to release the product earlier, even if it's not top-of-the-speed, and then follow an upgrade path. So that people can immediately get it, use it, and even test it. Quote:
Heck, this vampire board impressed me at least so much, that grabbed my A600 out of storage, blowed the dust off it and powered it on first time in years to check wheter it's still fine. |

@CodeSmith
Quote:
CodeSmith wrote: @retro
Quote:
In theory it could be. If the FPGA is large enough and you can get the signal paths right you can fit two, four or even more cores. The problem is that amigaos doesn't support multicore, so a multicore vampyre would be in the same boat as the high end PPC systems.
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The used FPGA is large enough to hold another core or even two. However, and like you stated, Amiga had no multicore support, and it's unlikely that a retro platform can have it.
P.S. Sorry, no time to read and fix typos. |
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pavlor
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 8:40:35
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
Tina again?  |
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OnlyMe
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 16:41:18
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Joined: 18-Sep-2015 Posts: 16
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| @OlafS25
So I hear. I personally can't wait. Have got my A600 waiting for the upgrade.
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cdimauro
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:36:25
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 4127
From: Germany | | |
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| @pavlor
Quote:
pavlor wrote: @cdimauro
Tina again?  |
Too cryptic. TiNA what? |
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WOSPUPOS4
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:22:24
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Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Posts: 220
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Fransexy
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:41:18
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Joined: 8-Jun-2004 Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain | | |
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| @WOSPUPOS4
Quote:
 Last edited by Fransexy on 11-Dec-2015 at 12:25 AM. Last edited by Fransexy on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:43 PM.
_________________ No PowerPC, No Fun Make Amiga Great Again |
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pavlor
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:46:19
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @WOSPUPOS4
2.28 vs 4.26 in favour of Vampire.
Nice!
Too bad we don´t know Blizzard 1260 numbers for comparison.
Edit x: There must be way how to repair thread layout.  Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:49 PM. Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:48 PM. Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:48 PM. Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM. Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM. Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM.
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Zylesea
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:52:14
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 2264
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG | | |
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| @pavlor
Impressive. But reminds me also how slow 68k actually is. On my Powerbook the same scene takes 9s. 16 times the speed. And that not even native but by Trance. _________________ My programs: via.bckrs.de MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001) |
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gregthecanuck
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 0:47:45
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Joined: 30-Dec-2003 Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada | | |
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| @Zylesea
Hey my AIX server will run it even faster but that's not the point.
For comparison sakes, please remember that:
- the core is running in what - a 2 or 3 watt power envelope? - at the moment the core's memory read performance is about half what it should be: 150MB/s instead of 300MB/s (according to Gunnar will improve in the next few months) - and there are likely some remaining core optimizations as well - they have a *lot* of free real-estate on the FPGA
In terms of grunt/watt this core is doing pretty well I would say.
But this test is a great baseline to gauge future performance increases.
Cheers!
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OnlyMe
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 1:18:52
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Joined: 18-Sep-2015 Posts: 16
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| Great comparison video. This is the type of real worldy stuff we need to see (I like to see) not whether it plays Superfrog or not. Now I am really impressed.
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NovaCoder
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 3:57:44
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Joined: 16-Apr-2008 Posts: 492
From: Melbourne (Australia) | | |
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| @Zylesea
Quote:
Zylesea wrote: @pavlor
Impressive. But reminds me also how slow 68k actually is. On my Powerbook the same scene takes 9s. 16 times the speed. And that not even native but by Trance. |
As far as performance goes, if they can match the fastest 'real' accelerators then that is already quite an achievement.
Last edited by NovaCoder on 11-Dec-2015 at 03:58 AM.
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olegil
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 6:21:21
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5900
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| @NovaCoder
I hope they're focussing more on getting it release worthy than getting it perfect at this point.
I wonder if my aunt still has an A600 in her attic. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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BoingBear
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 10:22:10
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Regular Member  |
Joined: 28-Oct-2015 Posts: 140
From: Unknown | | |
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| @olegil
Quote:
olegil wrote: @NovaCoder
I hope they're focussing more on getting it release worthy than getting it perfect at this point.
I wonder if my aunt still has an A600 in her attic. |
Yes, please finalize the design and begin production of the hardware, so more of us users can begin playing with what is working now. The years of waiting only allow more existing users to lose patience and leave all parts of the Amiga community.
The core can still be improved upon and updated cores can be released AFTER the hardware is in the hands of the users who are willing to be beta testers, and don't mind that the work is not 100% completed.
Maybe more people will be available to help development, if the hardware is in their hands.
Come on Gunnar, give us what we want! Don't let the Vampire2 board and your plans for other accelerators and stand alone systems turn into another Natami failure that for one reason, or another never gets manufactured, except for a few people who are working on it, that have prototypes. |
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pavlor
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 13:00:13
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9660
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Zylesea
For another perspective...
WinUAE/OS4 on Core i5-2500K 3.3 GHz:
0:50 default settings (= no antialiasing) 3:10 Antialiasing = always, Oversampling = 2x2
Good to see emulation under emulation is faster than 68060 even with crippled FPU (softfloats).  |
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Zylesea
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 13:51:59
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 2264
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG | | |
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| @NovaCoder
I think the demo is pretty impresve and leaves not much doubt that this will be the fastest "68k" accelerator so far. I like the project, my post above was just to put this into relation. The Vampire will be fast, but it's still far, far off from ppcs, let alone current x64 (whci noone expected, promised or intended though). _________________ My programs: via.bckrs.de MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001) |
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wawa
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 11-Dec-2015 14:00:45
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Zylesea
if you look at the comparison of speed increase the core gives against the original a600 configuration, around 150 times in some cases, then is the ten times less difference to some g4 mac still worth such a mention? remember, hardware wise this is just a second take on the issue if you count vampire1 in, it is still a preliminary release, its still a budget offer,and so on. |
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