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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:15:18
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
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| @ferrels
Thanks for the indepth explainations.
Gives the discussion a better framing. |
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:30:41
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Cult Member  |
Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
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| AROS big endian on rpi still has not integration with 68k software, so comparing rpi to Amiga NG is still dumb.
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:34:34
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
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| Even if nobody compile software on vampire, still debugging left. Lack of tools like enforcer makes vampire incomplete. It is much easier and take less time to debug software on Amiga NG or real 68k, where tools like enforcer avaible.
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wawa
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 8:34:05
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
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| @ferrels
from my limited experience i must confirm what you say, cross compiling is currently far better option. admittedly i have not tried in a while, but i have never been able to really compile anything significant natively. the current problem, at least on aros, is lack of proper debugging possibility. other than that emulators are suitable for the basic testing, even though the real hardware is irreplaceable in the end, especially when it comes to low level stuff. Last edited by wawa on 23-Jun-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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wawa
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 8:39:04
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
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| @ppcamiga1
Quote:
It is much easier and take less time to debug software on Amiga NG or real 68k, where tools like enforcer avaible. |
enforcer only catches illegal memory access. out of interest, what else tools are you using to debug your applications? |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:28:53
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
From: Norway | | |
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| @wawa
Quote:
i have never been able to really compile anything significant natively. |
Larger project might depend on configure / sh scripts that use commands that are not compiled to geekgadets, or ABC shell. Plus the sh shell commands are often broken, don't fully support Amiga paths or the Linux paths, and therefore does not work under AmigaOS, this make it hopeless, to port games or programs over, with first fixing 1000 of other things before you even get to running the configure script.
So cross compilers are needed no doubt about that, but for native made games or programs it's nice to be able to work on the OS you love.Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:35 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:30 AM.
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:29:22
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6472
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| @ferrels
I really do not understand all that discussions about memory protection at all, at least regarding development. If you develop you use the fastest hardware and that certainly is not Vampire so cross-compiling is first choice there. If you want to test 68k you can even use a modern PC and UAE. Only final testing is on vampire. That is also true as long as you use OS routines. Only if you want to bang vampire hardware directly using specific features you have to develop on vampire directly. But that are handwritten asm routines anyway... |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:39:42
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
f you want to test 68k you can even use a modern PC and UAE |
But does UAE support the new instruction set of the 68080?
Quote:
But that are handwritten asm routines anyway.. |
AMMX is not predefinition system unfriendly. Yes need to write some stuff in assembler, often you can do that in inline assembler, section of code being assembler. you don't need to write everything in asmOne.
It where likely it won't be used in routines that bang the hardware, it lots places where do image processing and work on large arrays of data.Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:45 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:45 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:41 AM.
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:55:23
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:07:48
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
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| I'am not interested in ammx. Vampire even with ammx is too slow to watch movies in anything never than MPEG 1. Vampire is fast enough to display jpeg even with out ammx. using ammx is simply waste of time. other than ammx vampire offer nothing which was not avaible in Amiga world.
uae with mmu works without jit and many times slower.
so Amigas 68k and NG are still better to debug amiga software.
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Overflow
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:18:10
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @ppcamiga1
Im sure NG has a better development enviroment than 68k.
Out of curiosity, what kind of software are you developing? |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:48:59
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
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| @ppcamiga1
Well let's say you do vector calculation.
You have vector object position, you wont to add the position to all vectors in large 3d object. So you have lots of x,y,z coordinates for like to add with object position x,y,z, with AMMX or altivec you should be able to do 4 additions in one instruction something like:
instruction 1 o.x+x[0],o.x+x[1],o.x+x[2],o.x+x[3]
instruction 2 o.y+y[0],o.y+y[1],o.y+y[2],o.y+y[3]
instruction 3 o.z+z[0],o.z+z[1],o.z+z[2],o.z+z[3]
so in 3 AMMX or Altivec operations is equal to 12 normal operations, this type of instruction set is great, but it's not always easy to find user cases.
Often require restructuring of the code, and thinking outside of the box.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:19 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:57 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:53 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:52 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:10:17
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
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| @NutsAboutAmiga
altivec is single-precision floating point. ammx use 16 bit integer only. ammx is unusable for 3D vector positions calculation.
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:11:00
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow
On amiga I'm interested in 3D software. |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:44:45
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Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6472
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ppcamiga1
you did not answer
What software have you written on amiga? |
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OlafS25
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:48:34
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6472
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| @NutsAboutAmiga
to wrote professionally you would need a integrated development environment with class libraries and of course debugging tools
As I see it there is no amiga platform offering that
MMU is of course needed to have a stable and safe OS but that would break most existing software propably |
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Overflow
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 12:23:06
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| The reason why I ask;
If what you or any enduser prefere a certain type of software type for day to day use, then I dont actually care what the underlying hardware is, as long as it accomplishes the tasks I want to do. Preferably with decent performance.
So you are probarbly correct that you "dont need ammx" for your 3d usage, since there are no software (to my knowledge) that directly get a performance improvement from Ammx, since they havent been patched/re-written.
So that area of the core is "wasted" in that regard.
That doesnt mean your or any other endusers expirience cant be enhanced by the new core features IF developers decide to utilize it.
So the lack of actual software currently, doesnt indefintly invalidate its potential. |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 13:14:14
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Elite Member  |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
From: Norway | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
to write professionally you would need a integrated development environment with class libraries and of course debugging tools |
Well you get stack trace when grim repair detects an illegal memory access. The tool allowed you to see the name of last function or class method used. As long as debug symbols are not stripped out.
The tool allows you to look at assembler code at the crash, and you can also investigate the cpu registers at point of the crash, plus it has integrated hex monitor, so you can investigate the memory the register points to.
Grim detects illegal read write and illegal instructions.
Most of the time that tool works ok, but not all of the time.
--> as for other debugging tools, I use printf(...) it highly underrated tool, just logging what is happening, where and when. The program does not need to run fast while debugging, it only need to tell me what is wrong, so I can fix the problem.
Precompile switches and macros are useful to enable or disable logging in different parts of the program, also open extra consoles, this makes easy to keep track-threaded programs, where one program has many child tasks running.
As for development environment i find it useful to have many text editors open at once, I often look at .h file in one windows, this helps me see how the functions and structs are defined. And write code into another text editor where the .cpp file is opened. AmigaOS allows me to organize the windows.
I also use shell alias to quickly get me back to the project I am working on, in case of system crash or lockups.
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MMU is of course needed to have a stable and safe OS but that would break most existing software probably |
It only breaks bad apples that do stuff they should not be doing anyway. but It's be unrealistic to make AmigaOS as stable as Linux (in its current form), but you know that already.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:49 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:36 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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ppcamiga1
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 14:39:08
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Cult Member  |
Joined: 23-Aug-2015 Posts: 985
From: Unknown | | |
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| Last time I use integrated development environment on amiga was 1995. It was Maxon C++. There is no and there will be no IDE with decent compiler on amiga. Nobody will write decent compiler especially for amiga. Not enough users. We will be using gcc to the end.
I use Amiga NG because gdb provide big help for developers and save my time. I don't care if MMU tools/gdb are hack or not.
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: News about Vampire and Apollo Posted on 23-Jun-2019 14:53:43
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12964
From: Norway | | |
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