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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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PosterThread
Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:15:18
#1781 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

@ferrels

Thanks for the indepth explainations.

Gives the discussion a better framing.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:30:41
#1782 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

AROS big endian on rpi still has not integration with 68k software, so comparing rpi to Amiga NG is still dumb.



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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 7:34:34
#1783 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

Even if nobody compile software on vampire, still debugging left.
Lack of tools like enforcer makes vampire incomplete.
It is much easier and take less time to debug software on Amiga NG or real 68k, where tools like enforcer avaible.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 8:34:05
#1784 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@ferrels

from my limited experience i must confirm what you say, cross compiling is currently far better option. admittedly i have not tried in a while, but i have never been able to really compile anything significant natively. the current problem, at least on aros, is lack of proper debugging possibility. other than that emulators are suitable for the basic testing, even though the real hardware is irreplaceable in the end, especially when it comes to low level stuff.

Last edited by wawa on 23-Jun-2019 at 08:34 AM.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 8:39:04
#1785 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
It is much easier and take less time to debug software on Amiga NG or real 68k, where tools like enforcer avaible.


enforcer only catches illegal memory access. out of interest, what else tools are you using to debug your applications?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:28:53
#1786 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@wawa

Quote:
i have never been able to really compile anything significant natively.


Larger project might depend on configure / sh scripts that use commands that are not compiled to geekgadets, or ABC shell. Plus the sh shell commands are often broken, don't fully support Amiga paths or the Linux paths, and therefore does not work under AmigaOS, this make it hopeless, to port games or programs over, with first fixing 1000 of other things before you even get to running the configure script.

So cross compilers are needed no doubt about that, but for native made games or programs it's nice to be able to work on the OS you love.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:35 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:30 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:29:22
#1787 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@ferrels

I really do not understand all that discussions about memory protection at all, at least regarding development. If you develop you use the fastest hardware and that certainly is not Vampire so cross-compiling is first choice there. If you want to test 68k you can even use a modern PC and UAE. Only final testing is on vampire. That is also true as long as you use OS routines. Only if you want to bang vampire hardware directly using specific features you have to develop on vampire directly. But that are handwritten asm routines anyway...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:39:42
#1788 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
f you want to test 68k you can even use a modern PC and UAE


But does UAE support the new instruction set of the 68080?

Quote:
But that are handwritten asm routines anyway..


AMMX is not predefinition system unfriendly. Yes need to write some stuff in assembler, often you can do that in inline assembler, section of code being assembler. you don't need to write everything in asmOne.

It where likely it won't be used in routines that bang the hardware, it lots places where do image processing and work on large arrays of data.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:45 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:45 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 09:41 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 9:55:23
#1789 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@ferrels

Quote:
You do risk crashing the target system during testing


Except you might not find the bug, if you don't have a MMU

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:07:48
#1790 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

I'am not interested in ammx.
Vampire even with ammx is too slow to watch movies in anything never than MPEG 1.
Vampire is fast enough to display jpeg even with out ammx.
using ammx is simply waste of time.
other than ammx vampire offer nothing which was not avaible in Amiga world.

uae with mmu works without jit and many times slower.

so Amigas 68k and NG are still better to debug amiga software.


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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:18:10
#1791 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Im sure NG has a better development enviroment than 68k.

Out of curiosity, what kind of software are you developing?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 10:48:59
#1792 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Well let's say you do vector calculation.

You have vector object position, you wont to add the position to all vectors in large 3d object. So you have lots of x,y,z coordinates for like to add with object position x,y,z, with AMMX or altivec you should be able to do 4 additions in one instruction something like:

instruction 1
o.x+x[0],o.x+x[1],o.x+x[2],o.x+x[3]

instruction 2
o.y+y[0],o.y+y[1],o.y+y[2],o.y+y[3]

instruction 3
o.z+z[0],o.z+z[1],o.z+z[2],o.z+z[3]

so in 3 AMMX or Altivec operations is equal to 12 normal operations, this type of instruction set is great, but it's not always easy to find user cases.

Often require restructuring of the code, and thinking outside of the box.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:57 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:53 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:52 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 10:50 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:10:17
#1793 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

altivec is single-precision floating point.
ammx use 16 bit integer only.
ammx is unusable for 3D vector positions calculation.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:11:00
#1794 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

@Overflow

On amiga I'm interested in 3D software.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:44:45
#1795 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

you did not answer

What software have you written on amiga?

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 11:48:34
#1796 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

to wrote professionally you would need a integrated development environment with class libraries and of course debugging tools

As I see it there is no amiga platform offering that

MMU is of course needed to have a stable and safe OS but that would break most existing software propably

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 12:23:06
#1797 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

The reason why I ask;

If what you or any enduser prefere a certain type of software type for day to day use, then I dont actually care what the underlying hardware is, as long as it accomplishes the tasks I want to do.
Preferably with decent performance.

So you are probarbly correct that you "dont need ammx" for your 3d usage, since there are no software (to my knowledge) that directly get a performance improvement from Ammx, since they havent been patched/re-written.

So that area of the core is "wasted" in that regard.

That doesnt mean your or any other endusers expirience cant be enhanced by the new core features IF developers decide to utilize it.

So the lack of actual software currently, doesnt indefintly invalidate its potential.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 13:14:14
#1798 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
to write professionally you would need a integrated development environment with class libraries and of course debugging tools


Well you get stack trace when grim repair detects an illegal memory access. The tool allowed you to see the name of last function or class method used. As long as debug symbols are not stripped out.

The tool allows you to look at assembler code at the crash, and you can also investigate the cpu registers at point of the crash, plus it has integrated hex monitor, so you can investigate the memory the register points to.

Grim detects illegal read write and illegal instructions.

Most of the time that tool works ok, but not all of the time.

--> as for other debugging tools, I use printf(...) it highly underrated tool, just logging what is happening, where and when. The program does not need to run fast while debugging, it only need to tell me what is wrong, so I can fix the problem.

Precompile switches and macros are useful to enable or disable logging in different parts of the program, also open extra consoles, this makes easy to keep track-threaded programs, where one program has many child tasks running.

As for development environment i find it useful to have many text editors open at once, I often look at .h file in one windows, this helps me see how the functions and structs are defined. And write code into another text editor where the .cpp file is opened. AmigaOS allows me to organize the windows.

I also use shell alias to quickly get me back to the project I am working on, in case of system crash or lockups.

Quote:
MMU is of course needed to have a stable and safe OS but that would break most existing software probably


It only breaks bad apples that do stuff they should not be doing anyway.
but It's be unrealistic to make AmigaOS as stable as Linux (in its current form),
but you know that already.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 01:34 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 14:39:08
#1799 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 148
From: Unknown

Last time I use integrated development environment on amiga was 1995. It was Maxon C++.
There is no and there will be no IDE with decent compiler on amiga.
Nobody will write decent compiler especially for amiga. Not enough users.
We will be using gcc to the end.

I use Amiga NG because gdb provide big help for developers and save my time.
I don't care if MMU tools/gdb are hack or not.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 23-Jun-2019 14:53:43
#1800 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

"Camilla Boemann" wrote really nice IDE for classic Amiga not too long ago.

There is a number of good text editors with color highlighting.
"Annotate", GoldED/CubicED.

Code Bench for AmigaOS4.1

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 02:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2019 at 02:56 PM.

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